And now the totally expected Trans Bathroom laws result

[Emily Lake]

That’s it: a woman objecting to an apparent t man in a women’s bathroom is now a KAREN???

It’s bad enough that women are being distilled into a single name—a perfectly good. name at that—but now she is somehow the personification of ‘white female privilege’ for objecting to a man in the women’s room.

Fuck that shit.

Karens aren't about objecting, but how they object. The usage is obviously meaning someone who was unreasonable and continued to object after being informed that they were trans and doing what the law required.

Or, you know, pregnant nurses who paid for a bike and called for help when five adult men started pushing her around?

 

[Emily Lake]

There's an interesting pattern of behavior that can usually be seen and understood around the different reactions someone accused of being somewhere where someone thinks they don't belong will take.

They can run/wander away.

They can pretend they don't know what is happening.

They can press an assault.

Rarely does anyone who lacks a real right to be there stand their ground and continue to engage on their assertion.

Um, no. This is a male-centric view.

Rephrase this: Rarely does any man who lacks a real right to be there stand their ground against another man and continue to engage on their assertion.

 

[Emily Lake]

The Karen could have just as easily asked "why are you in here?" In a level tone and then accepted the explanation in an equal tone. It's easy and straightforward, and the opportunity to scream is still there in case the person decides to "press".

Yep. Women are responsible for what men do.

The woman who was concerned about an apparent man in the women's restroom didn't attack Ruiz. MEN did that. They did that all on their own.

Don't fucking call the woman a sexist slur while completely ignoring the role that men played in this.

 

[Emily Lake]

Meanwhile Emily Lake's, Toni's, and AthenaAwakened's computers all just exploded and they aren't certain why.

Give me more credit I know exactly why my head exploded all over my keyboard.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is certainly conceivable that the woman initially addressed Ruiz politely, and Ruiz's response might have been less than courteous, leading to the unfortunate escalation into violence. However, these specific details, while they may add context, do not absolve the root cause of the issue. An issue that will repeat itself at another time and place.

For this case, we don't know what the root cause was. Was the complaint coming from a woman, a Karen, could it have been diffused quickly, did someone escalate, was the woman's position on trans relevant?

What we do know is the person was told to go to that restroom at that camp site for a decade or so, and they belonged there. Everything else is based on the complications of that order and America's lack of maturity to deal with this subject.

That’s it: a woman objecting to an apparent t man in a women’s bathroom is now a KAREN???

It is a possibility, one of several I provided, and didn't actually choose which one had to be the case. But certainly, it is possible a woman felt entitled to lay down the law via needless meddling (just as it seems the Kevins did outside). Or a woman in general might have felt that the guy did not belong there because they thought the person was a guy. Or a woman might have initially thought he was a guy, then understood he was a woman (genital wise) and then her position on trans became the issue. Ruiz could have been upset having to defend their following the rules for the umpteenth time and made things harder.

Any number of hypotheticals here which all stem from different conflicts of the exact same situation. Which again, Ruiz did what they were told... and this happened. The worst types of problems to solve are usually the ones where neither side is wrong, and that generally gets harder when misogyny, bullying, bigotry, and ignorance get a play too.

Earth to Jimmy: It WAS a guy coming in. Or do you not believe that trans men are men?

And WTF calling anybody names that are supposed to indicate gender specific white privilege?????

Yeah, let’s Fe is not much fun living under misogyny, bullying, bigotry and ignorance.

Wish you men folk would stop that shit like 2 thousand years ago but I’ll be happy with today. How about stopping that today.

It feels like you are responding to my post, but not what I said.

Sorry to be such an inscrutable woman.

Don't apologize for being fed up with this shit. Honestly, even men who think they mean well frequently miss the point entirely. I know Jimmy's trying to be considerate, and isn't actually a sexist... but even so, all of the possibilities he came up with place blame on the woman.

So you say you know I'm not sexist, but try to insert a sexist motive into my post?

It's nice that he says "neither side was wrong"... but I disagree. The MEN who beat up Ruiz were wrong.

No kidding. I was speaking as to the two immediate players here. Not the third man in, who always gets the game misconduct penalty.

They aren't really considered as a party to blame in any of the scenarios though... so apparently they're not one of the "sides".

You have zero basis to put that opinion on me. I have in no way said the people that allegedly assaulted Ruiz weren't to blame for their actions.

Even if Jimmy means well and is really trying to find a reasonable middle ground, he's still approaching this with the assumption that the woman was the problem.

That is absolutely false.

 

[Emily Lake]

That’s it: a woman objecting to an apparent t man in a women’s bathroom is now a KAREN???

It’s bad enough that women are being distilled into a single name—a perfectly good. name at that—but now she is somehow the personification of ‘white female privilege’ for objecting to a man in the women’s room.

Fuck that shit.

Karens aren't about objecting, but how they object. The usage is obviously meaning someone who was unreasonable and continued to object after being informed that they were trans and doing what the law required.

There's an interesting pattern of behavior that can usually be seen and understood around the different reactions someone accused of being somewhere where someone thinks they don't belong will take.

They can run/wander away.

They can pretend they don't know what is happening.

They can press an assault.

Rarely does anyone who lacks a real right to be there stand their ground and continue to engage on their assertion.

Unless they are a danger, jackass, or sociopath.

All we know about the woman is that she objected to Ruiz's presence. Based on photos, Noah could easily be mistaken for the male as he identified as. What happens after that is very muddled.

The Karen could have just as easily asked "why are you in here?" In a level tone and then accepted the explanation in an equal tone. It's easy and straightforward, and the opportunity to scream is still there in case the person decides to "press".

Meanwhile Emily Lake's, Toni's, and AthenaAwakened's computers all just exploded and they aren't certain why. You are complaining about the woman's reaction, of which you still really don't know what it was to begin with. Dollars to donuts, if a "guy" is seen in a bathroom, probably the wrong place, that'd be worth double down odds. Telling women that they need to communicate better when they are panicking because they are perceiving a potential threat is and they should hold off on judgment in light of a less likely chance something completely harmless is happening is... well... patronizing.

Their reaction was clearly vigorous enough to get three additional individuals involved.

Because women are responsible for male violence?

 

[Emily Lake]

So you say you know I'm not sexist, but try to insert a sexist motive into my post?


No kidding. I was speaking as to the two immediate players here. Not the third man in, who always gets the game misconduct penalty.


You have zero basis to put that opinion on me. I have in no way said the people that allegedly assaulted Ruiz weren't to blame for their actions.

Call it a blind spot due to male privilege rather than sexism. I don't think you're sexist at all. But I do think you're a man, who has grown up as a man in a world crafted for men by men, with all of the privileges that men take for granted.

You didn't say they weren't to blame, sure. But they were also not mentioned as the instigating party in any of your scenarios at all. They were pretty much disregarded in favor of discussion of the ways in which the woman in the bathroom caused the problem. You give consideration to her actions not being "wrong", but all of your scenarios had her as the cause.

Have you read The Invisible Knapsack? Think about it from that perspective, in terms of what you as a man take for granted, and where your perspective begins. You and Tom are doing a much better job of considering the view of women than several others in this thread, and I really do appreciate it, But you still end up coming at it from the perspective of a man, where your experience and your assumptions are taken as "normal", even though that's not at all the norm of women.

That is absolutely false.

I'm sorry, I seem to be having some difficulty. Can you please expand on which of your possible scenarios did NOT have the woman in the bathroom as the root cause?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So you say you know I'm not sexist, but try to insert a sexist motive into my post?


No kidding. I was speaking as to the two immediate players here. Not the third man in, who always gets the game misconduct penalty.


You have zero basis to put that opinion on me. I have in no way said the people that allegedly assaulted Ruiz weren't to blame for their actions.

Call it a blind spot due to male privilege rather than sexism. You didn't say they weren't to blame, sure.

Okay. Thanks, that's all I wanted you to acknowledge. Oh wait..., there is going to be a "but".

But they were also not mentioned as the instigating party in any of your scenarios at all.

That'd be because they weren't in the bathroom.

They were pretty much disregarded in favor of discussion of the ways in which the woman in the bathroom caused the problem. You give consideration to her actions not being "wrong", but all of your scenarios had her as the cause.

My first post in this thread, 4th post overall:

Ruiz would be the LAST NAME. Second line of article lists violence victim as Noah Ruiz.

ETA: As far as meets the eye, sounds like he did what he was lawfully required to do. Burly guys came up to him, angry for what he did, despite him doing what they actually supported but were too fucking stupid to understand. Both sides got tempered up, yelling, then some physical violence. And HE got detained.

Should I have put that in my signature? Only people I mention are Ruiz and the three guys.

That is absolutely false.

I'm sorry, I seem to be having some difficulty. Can you please expand on which of your possible scenarios did NOT have the woman in the bathroom as the root cause?

The root cause was that Ruiz was told to use that bathroom. That was the whole point of my post. It literally went over all the different reactions the woman in the bathroom could have had to Ruiz, but ultimately, it was all about Ruiz being told to go to that bathroom. That was the instigation of the entire incident.

 

[TomC]

The woman who was concerned about an apparent man in the women's restroom didn't attack Ruiz. MEN did that. They did that all on their own.

Nobody really even knows that.
It's what Ruiz claims happened.

He wouldn't be the first drunk guy to cause a problem, get accosted, throw a punch, then get whooped.

Then claim to be the victim.

Maybe I'm letting too much of my checkered past show here, but yeah. I've seen that scenario many times. And since there's no evidence to go on except his version, I'm uninclined to draw any firm conclusions.
Tom

 

[TomC]

The root cause was that Ruiz was told to use that bathroom.

That's how it looks to me.
Tom

 

[Toni]

That's not a "shout of alarm". She was just shouting at them.

You don’t think the dialogue as presented sounded like she was alarmed?

I don't think so. The trouble is we really only had the Ruiz family's take on the events.

That’s true—but Ruiz’s account is not accusatory towards the woman. He did not say that she was screaming for help.

The whole Cis woman was a bigoted anti trans bitch for calling out some man in the woman’s bathroom seems to be invented while cloth by men in this thread.

Again: No woman was violent in this story. None. We don’t even have the victim of a beating implying that a woman got him beat up.

Given the animosity directed at a woman for speaking up, by people who were not even there, is it any wonder why women are uncomfortable with having a male person in the women’s only space?

So far, we have a cis, straight man whose ‘solution’ is to simply eliminate all women’s inky bathrooms and locker rooms. Duck women and their feelings and their concerns about sexual assault or just comfort! Oh, I believe in some thread or another, Loren implied that good men would ensure that the bad guys wouldn’t hurt women.

Every other male’s option in this thread seems to be..,.to attack the woman who protested and the women who said we could see her point and it was terrible that Ruiz was jumped by 3 men!

Rules of Misogyny #1.

1. Women are responsible for what men do.​

The males (not all of them) in this thread, regardless of whether they consider themselves to be "men", take the position that the woman who was alarmed is entirely at fault for three MEN beating the shit out of a female who is a transman. They have hardly a word to say about the fact that three MEN did the violence, they're focused solely on the female-women who aren't comfortable with visible penises in our female-only spaces.

That isn't applicable here. No penis was visible (it doesn't exist, as far as I can tell).

It's always women's fault when men engage in violence. This is just one more case.

I think you are reading way too deep into this. Statements regarding how the woman should have reacted to seeing Noah being misplaced aside, the reaction the woman had has been brought up for a couple reasons, including legitimate ones. Had the three guys heard a scream or alarm, that presents a presumption for them and they enter into the situation with an initial bias that there is trouble. This isn't the woman's fault, it is just an observational fact. The immediate decisions they choose to make will be influenced by this initial bias.

The reason the three men act as they do is unclear and we'll never know. The violence itself would be unwarranted in any case, shy of Noah assaulting the woman, but seeing there are no charges as such, that almost definitely did not happen. Jarhyn's reflection on her reaction was about it being the cause of violence, but instead regarding respect to Noah. That doesn't make it fair or correct, but I didn't seeing Jarhyn blaming the woman's reaction for the violence. Of course, there have been lots of posts, so it is possible I missed it.

Yeah, well I feel blamed. Blamed for not condemning the woman who challenged a man in the woman’s bathroom but instead for saying that I thought her reaction was predictable and understandable. Absolutely not the fault of Ruiz!!!! Who should never have been beaten or threatened.

 

[TomC]

They "guy" was female though. Well passing as a dude, but still female.

Toni wasn't referring to Ruiz. She was talking about men in general.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

You don’t consider Ruiz to be a man?

Or are you talking about the woman speaking up about the man in the woman’s bathroom?

There's no reasonable way to consider Ruiz to be 100% a man. Because they're not 100% a man. They're a transman. Ruiz is a female human who presents as much like a male as they can, and who lives their life as much like their perception of what men are like as possible.

But Ruiz is still female, and was using a female restroom, while having the facsimile of a male as it pertains to their appearance.

 

[Toni]

It is certainly conceivable that the woman initially addressed Ruiz politely, and Ruiz's response might have been less than courteous, leading to the unfortunate escalation into violence. However, these specific details, while they may add context, do not absolve the root cause of the issue. An issue that will repeat itself at another time and place.

For this case, we don't know what the root cause was. Was the complaint coming from a woman, a Karen, could it have been diffused quickly, did someone escalate, was the woman's position on trans relevant?

What we do know is the person was told to go to that restroom at that camp site for a decade or so, and they belonged there. Everything else is based on the complications of that order and America's lack of maturity to deal with this subject.

That’s it: a woman objecting to an apparent t man in a women’s bathroom is now a KAREN???

It is a possibility, one of several I provided, and didn't actually choose which one had to be the case. But certainly, it is possible a woman felt entitled to lay down the law via needless meddling (just as it seems the Kevins did outside). Or a woman in general might have felt that the guy did not belong there because they thought the person was a guy. Or a woman might have initially thought he was a guy, then understood he was a woman (genital wise) and then her position on trans became the issue. Ruiz could have been upset having to defend their following the rules for the umpteenth time and made things harder.

Any number of hypotheticals here which all stem from different conflicts of the exact same situation. Which again, Ruiz did what they were told... and this happened. The worst types of problems to solve are usually the ones where neither side is wrong, and that generally gets harder when misogyny, bullying, bigotry, and ignorance get a play too.

Earth to Jimmy: It WAS a guy coming in. Or do you not believe that trans men are men?

And WTF calling anybody names that are supposed to indicate gender specific white privilege?????

Yeah, let’s Fe is not much fun living under misogyny, bullying, bigotry and ignorance.

Wish you men folk would stop that shit like 2 thousand years ago but I’ll be happy with today. How about stopping that today.

It feels like you are responding to my post, but not what I said.

Sorry to be such an inscrutable woman.

Don't apologize for being fed up with this shit. Honestly, even men who think they mean well frequently miss the point entirely. I know Jimmy's trying to be considerate, and isn't actually a sexist... but even so, all of the possibilities he came up with place blame on the woman.

So you say you know I'm not sexist, but try to insert a sexist motive into my post?

It's nice that he says "neither side was wrong"... but I disagree. The MEN who beat up Ruiz were wrong.

No kidding. I was speaking as to the two immediate players here. Not the third man in, who always gets the game misconduct penalty.

They aren't really considered as a party to blame in any of the scenarios though... so apparently they're not one of the "sides".

You have zero basis to put that opinion on me. I have in no way said the people that allegedly assaulted Ruiz weren't to blame for their actions.

Even if Jimmy means well and is really trying to find a reasonable middle ground, he's still approaching this with the assumption that the woman was the problem.

That is absolutely false.

Maybe but Emily isn’t the only person who has felt that the men in this thread see the root cause of this as (cis)women.

 

[Emily Lake]

Drop the Karen shit. It was obvious why she yelled and why she questioned Ruiz. It wasn’t Ruiz’ fault but it sure wasn’t hers, either.

Men earned every ounce of suspicion from women. Every single milligram.

Describing her as a Karen is reasonable--she should have dropped it when Ruiz indicated what the situation was. Not doing so is Karen behavior. (And I wish we had a different term.)

It's 100% unreasonable and innappropriate. The woman in the restroom didn't attack anyone. It's not her fault that three men attacked Ruiz.
So drop the fucking sex-based slurs, please and thank you.

 

[Toni]

Meanwhile Emily Lake's, Toni's, and AthenaAwakened's computers all just exploded and they aren't certain why.

Give me more credit I know exactly why my head exploded all over my keyboard.

Yeah—my head certainly did not explode, although apparently some men are having a nervous breakdown because women aren’t accepting blame/assigning a woman blame for shit men do.

 

[Toni]

That's not a "shout of alarm". She was just shouting at them.

You don’t think the dialogue as presented sounded like she was alarmed?

I don't think so. The trouble is we really only had the Ruiz family's take on the events.

And Ruiz was not condemning the woman in the bathroom so why are the men in this thread condemning her, and the women posting in this thread?

 

[Emily Lake]

Some people think that transgender doesn't even exist.

[nitpickiness]
Nobody thinks that transgender doesn't exist. Many people think that gender isn't a real thing - not that it isn't a genuine concept, but that it's not a concrete and objective element of reality. It's a set of stereotypes and confining behavioral expectations placed on people, largely on the basis of their sex. In language, gender applied to objects is an anthropomorphization that applies a nominal sex to those objects based on a conceptual alignment with the social stereotypes applied to humans and animals on the basis of sex. Sometimes it's applied because men are homophobic - ships are generally "she" because hetero men don't want to be mounting and cavorting around inside of a "he" .

At the end of the day, the only people that say that some people think transgender doesn't exist are people making lazy arguments against gender critical people.

We all know it exists. The disagreement is about whether or not the concept of subjectively proclaimed gender should trump the material reality of sex... and if so, in which situations should it take precedence?
[/nitpickiness]

 

[Emily Lake]

In my opinion, at this time there are no protocols that will completely avoid these situations because we are dealing with people not robots.

People yes, but it gets more complicated. Some people think that transgender doesn't even exist. It is hard to manage a problem when people think transgender people are either crazy, perverts, or criminals. Then the issue of it impacting women more because, in general, the boundaries being crossed impact woman a lot more than man, and the indifference to this reality by others whether through legalistic simplicity or misogyny.

Then there is the actual issue of how to accommodate, if people took the rights to all sides involved in this seriously, which in itself, isn't easy. But we can't even get to that point.

In this thread, I have seen not one single person deny that some people are transgendered or otherwise non-gender conforming. In fact, people seem to be extremely accepting.

TomC and Bomb#20 (among others) appear very reluctant to accept transgenders changed gender.

That would be 1) because you're incorrectly saying "gender" when you should be saying "sex" and 2) because transgender people do not, in fact, change sex.

Gender is made up, and it's largely made up to enforce sex-based roles and restrictions that disadvantage women (although they also disadvantage men in some ways too). Given that gender is an entirely faith-based concept... anyone can change "gender" whenever they want, for whatever reason they want, to whatever abstract notion of newfangled gender they want to be.

But gender is not sex, and humans cannot change sex.

 

[laughing dog]

But gender is not sex, and humans cannot change sex.

Is that a Metaphor?