Breakdown In Civil Order

[Politesse]

Smells faintly like gas chambers.

Widely held opinion: There are a whole lot of homeless people here, it's a serious problem. It's unsafe, unclean, and we need to do something about it. Just ignoring it all and letting people camp wherever they want isn't a viable solution.

Elixir & Jarhyn & Politesse: OMG, you want to murderfy the poor homeless people, you horrible evil nazi, you want to stuff them into gas chambers!!!111!111eleventyone!!!

I didn't actually say that. It's pretty obvious that the Republican "solution" to homelessness is mass incarceration, not execution.

Slavery isn't any better than execution... And let's be real, when Nazi Germany ran out of slave labor positions, they started shoveling everyone else into the gas chambers.

I'm not seeing much difference in the long run, especially since the path to the smokestacks often runs through a work camp or two.

WTH is wrong with you? Nobody has suggested slavery for the homeless either. Please stop pulling made up bullshit out of your ass.

Kinda sounds like you are maybe in favor of incarceration to solve homelessness. Prisoners are often used as labor paid in what can only be recognized as slave wages, if at all.

Maybe I’m misinterpreting what you are proposing?

You know you are.

How could anyone know that, when Emily refuses to clarify what she is proposing in any way? We know a lot about what she opposes, but not what she supports, or believes that her conservative friends support.

 

[thebeave]

I’m still waiting for the list of people (non-lawyers) who benefit from abortion laws.
The question has not been addressed, nor has the idea of personhood from conception been asserted.

Until there is some cogent response to the question, I would decline her advice on what constitutes just law.

Who are you talking to? Are you in the right thread?

“while being exempted from laws”

The question remains.
Tom

The question in which I am interested is how can civil order exist or be maintained while members of the supposedly civil society consider people who HAVE NO CHOICE about where to sleep, eat or shit, to be flouting "the law" while lauding "the law" that kills people.
Every single one of those people who conservatives (other than Emily apparently) tell us they want to "get rid of", is IMO more valuable than the sum total of every blatocyst, embryo and fetus that never took a breath, as is every woman who dies while waiting for care as she approaches death closely enough to be considered in need of care.
The fact that the imposed priorities of non-sentient blobs of protoplasm are raised above the humanity of people who have nowhere to shit, is simply despicable.
IMHO of course.
YMMV.
Does that connect the dots for you Tom?
Maybe I'm just tired of dishonest brokers in conversation.

Is there someone here on this forum in particular you are referring to? No one I recall has that view about blastocysts, etc (bolded in your text). I'm sure there are right wing loonies out in the general population who do ascribe to your scenario. I don't imagine any one here supports that point of view though.

 

[Elixir]

Kinda sounds like you are maybe in favor of incarceration to solve homelessness.

It certainly does. Good thing we gots laws against it, right? And damn those people flouting The Law!!

No one I recall has admitted to holding that view about blastocysts, etc (bolded in your text)

Fixed for accuracy. Yet the arguments I've seen to support laws that kill people and benefit exactly nobody, certainly imply such views.
I am disinclined to accept the arguments based on homeless people's "lawlessness" for the same reason: the laws Emily would use to "get rid of them" are just as draconian and harmful as the ones she supports banning abortions.

 

[Jarhyn]

No, rather I don't really blame homelessness on anything, nor think it's a problem that is solved with blame. We can change the rates of homelessness with blame, but we can't prevent it altogether, and blame does nothing about fixing the problem.

Only actually acting in effective ways so as to solve problems fixes problems.

I could give a rats ass less what my biological mother did to become homeless. She lived a life in a world without adequate or accessible psychiatric care, and as a result lived a very problematic life wherein she lacked a home and didn't lack for the opportunity to make bad decisions.

It doesn't really matter "why" she ended up homeless though, it mattered "that" she became homeless.

Having a place that guarantees a place someone can call "the bottom" but which isn't all that low is important.

There's a song "common people"; I've been exposed only to a version involving William Shatner, which isn't bad, mind, but I can't help but think of a few stanzas of that song:

Oh, rent a flat above a shop
And cut your hair and get a job
And smoke some fags and play some pool
Pretend you never went to school
But still you'll never get it right
'Cause when you're laid in bed at night
Watching roaches climb the wall
If you called your dad he could stop it all
Yeah

You'll never live like common people
You'll never do what ever common people do
Never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
And then dance, and drink, and screw
Because there's nothing else to do
Oh!

I want a world where there's only so far a life slides out of view unless the liver of that life designs to push it further, so that everyone has a "dad" they could call to stop it all and give folks a chance to breath before they step back out into it.

 

[Toni]

Smells faintly like gas chambers.

Widely held opinion: There are a whole lot of homeless people here, it's a serious problem. It's unsafe, unclean, and we need to do something about it. Just ignoring it all and letting people camp wherever they want isn't a viable solution.

Elixir & Jarhyn & Politesse: OMG, you want to murderfy the poor homeless people, you horrible evil nazi, you want to stuff them into gas chambers!!!111!111eleventyone!!!

I didn't actually say that. It's pretty obvious that the Republican "solution" to homelessness is mass incarceration, not execution.

Slavery isn't any better than execution... And let's be real, when Nazi Germany ran out of slave labor positions, they started shoveling everyone else into the gas chambers.

I'm not seeing much difference in the long run, especially since the path to the smokestacks often runs through a work camp or two.

WTH is wrong with you? Nobody has suggested slavery for the homeless either. Please stop pulling made up bullshit out of your ass.

Kinda sounds like you are maybe in favor of incarceration to solve homelessness. Prisoners are often used as labor paid in what can only be recognized as slave wages, if at all.

Maybe I’m misinterpreting what you are proposing?

You know you are.

How could anyone know that, when Emily refuses to clarify what she is proposing in any way? We know a lot about what she opposes, but not what she supports, or believes that her conservative friends support.

Hence the ?

Solving the very broad issue of unhoused people is not likely to be a single one size fits all solution unless we want to simply incarcerate people for the crime of having nowhere to go. Even that begs the question of who is included: Do we imprison infants and children? Forcibly terminate parental rights and put the kids up for adoption—regardless of the enormous and shameful number of children who are looking for families now, to no avail? For starters.

There are many issues that contribute to being unhoused. The cost of re t or home ownership is only one issue, albeit an extremely serious one. Jobs and job training, consistent and accessible healthcare, including treatment for chronic conditions—including substance abuse, mental health issues and more, the persistent lack of protection for renters, the lack of affordable and decent housing are some of the issues.

 

[thebeave]

Kinda sounds like you are maybe in favor of incarceration to solve homelessness.

It certainly does. Good thing we gots laws against it, right? And damn those people flouting The Law!!

No one I recall has admitted to holding that view about blastocysts, etc (bolded in your text)

Fixed for accuracy. Yet the arguments I've seen to support laws that kill people and benefit exactly nobody, certainly imply such views.
I am disinclined to accept the arguments based on homeless people's "lawlessness" for the same reason: the laws Emily would use to "get rid of them" are just as draconian and harmful as the ones she supports banning abortions.

IIRC, Emily supports the terms of abortion as per Roe V. Wade. As do I, and most sensible, reasonable people. Its just late term abortions (past viability) that she has problems with (not including health of mother issues, etc). Just take her word for it, and don't assume she is hiding some secret views about it.

 

[Toni]

Kinda sounds like you are maybe in favor of incarceration to solve homelessness.

It certainly does. Good thing we gots laws against it, right? And damn those people flouting The Law!!

No one I recall has admitted to holding that view about blastocysts, etc (bolded in your text)

Fixed for accuracy. Yet the arguments I've seen to support laws that kill people and benefit exactly nobody, certainly imply such views.
I am disinclined to accept the arguments based on homeless people's "lawlessness" for the same reason: the laws Emily would use to "get rid of them" are just as draconian and harmful as the ones she supports banning abortions.

IIRC, Emily supports the terms of abortion as per Roe V. Wade. As do I, and most sensible, reasonable people. Its just late term abortions (past viability) that she has problems with (not including health of mother issues, etc). Just take her word for it, and don't assume she is hiding some secret views about it.

Sure sure. But the devil is in the details.

 

[thebeave]

Kinda sounds like you are maybe in favor of incarceration to solve homelessness.

It certainly does. Good thing we gots laws against it, right? And damn those people flouting The Law!!

No one I recall has admitted to holding that view about blastocysts, etc (bolded in your text)

Fixed for accuracy. Yet the arguments I've seen to support laws that kill people and benefit exactly nobody, certainly imply such views.
I am disinclined to accept the arguments based on homeless people's "lawlessness" for the same reason: the laws Emily would use to "get rid of them" are just as draconian and harmful as the ones she supports banning abortions.

IIRC, Emily supports the terms of abortion as per Roe V. Wade. As do I, and most sensible, reasonable people. Its just late term abortions (past viability) that she has problems with (not including health of mother issues, etc). Just take her word for it, and don't assume she is hiding some secret views about it.

Sure sure. But the devil is in the details.

Feel free to elaborate. No need to be coy, Roy.

 

[Toni]

Kinda sounds like you are maybe in favor of incarceration to solve homelessness.

It certainly does. Good thing we gots laws against it, right? And damn those people flouting The Law!!

No one I recall has admitted to holding that view about blastocysts, etc (bolded in your text)

Fixed for accuracy. Yet the arguments I've seen to support laws that kill people and benefit exactly nobody, certainly imply such views.
I am disinclined to accept the arguments based on homeless people's "lawlessness" for the same reason: the laws Emily would use to "get rid of them" are just as draconian and harmful as the ones she supports banning abortions.

IIRC, Emily supports the terms of abortion as per Roe V. Wade. As do I, and most sensible, reasonable people. Its just late term abortions (past viability) that she has problems with (not including health of mother issues, etc). Just take her word for it, and don't assume she is hiding some secret views about it.

Sure sure. But the devil is in the details.

Feel free to elaborate. No need to be coy, Roy.

Isn’t it for Emily to elaborate? At least that was my point.

For myself: yes, Roe was and remains sensible and humane. As for late term abortions: They are rare and not always only to save the life and/or health of the mother. Sometimes, conditions which are incompatible with life are present in the fetus and not discovered until late in the pregnancy. Such decisions are best left to the woman and her medical doctor. These are never easy decisions and those faced with such situations deserve our compassion, not our judgement.

 

[TSwizzle]

How could anyone know that,

lol, with Toni’s extensive posting history, slam dunk. Not the only one doing.

when Emily refuses to clarify what she is proposing in any way?

She did, earlier in the thread. A lot earlier.

We know a lot about what she opposes, but not what she supports, or believes that her conservative friends support.

jeezus, you really can’t help yourself.

 

[Jarhyn]

Smells faintly like gas chambers.

Widely held opinion: There are a whole lot of homeless people here, it's a serious problem. It's unsafe, unclean, and we need to do something about it. Just ignoring it all and letting people camp wherever they want isn't a viable solution.

Elixir & Jarhyn & Politesse: OMG, you want to murderfy the poor homeless people, you horrible evil nazi, you want to stuff them into gas chambers!!!111!111eleventyone!!!

I didn't actually say that. It's pretty obvious that the Republican "solution" to homelessness is mass incarceration, not execution.

Slavery isn't any better than execution... And let's be real, when Nazi Germany ran out of slave labor positions, they started shoveling everyone else into the gas chambers.

I'm not seeing much difference in the long run, especially since the path to the smokestacks often runs through a work camp or two.

WTH is wrong with you? Nobody has suggested slavery for the homeless either. Please stop pulling made up bullshit out of your ass.

Kinda sounds like you are maybe in favor of incarceration to solve homelessness. Prisoners are often used as labor paid in what can only be recognized as slave wages, if at all.

Maybe I’m misinterpreting what you are proposing?

You know you are.

How could anyone know that, when Emily refuses to clarify what she is proposing in any way? We know a lot about what she opposes, but not what she supports, or believes that her conservative friends support.

Hence the ?

Solving the very broad issue of unhoused people is not likely to be a single one size fits all solution unless we want to simply incarcerate people for the crime of having nowhere to go. Even that begs the question of who is included: Do we imprison infants and children? Forcibly terminate parental rights and put the kids up for adoption—regardless of the enormous and shameful number of children who are looking for families now, to no avail? For starters.

There are many issues that contribute to being unhoused. The cost of re t or home ownership is only one issue, albeit an extremely serious one. Jobs and job training, consistent and accessible healthcare, including treatment for chronic conditions—including substance abuse, mental health issues and more, the persistent lack of protection for renters, the lack of affordable and decent housing are some of the issues.

And addiction, mental health and, being human.

Sometimes being human is itself a reason some become homeless. Humans haven't much evolved since our mud hut days. When humans discovered other humans in North America, some of those humans had thriving tent city cultures.

Living in tent cities is a fundamentally human behavior, and we are in some ways the mentally "unhealthy" ones who spurn that sort of existence. It's amazing that humans have adapted as we have to technology, though much of it is ergonomic to us at least.

I wonder sometimes whether some day, I will be homeless. I would have a place set aside that is not too cold at night, where I am not afraid as I sleep, where I can do the things I will with my time, where inexpensive (possibly injectable) medication is available, and where I have people I can see who move into and out of my life that I can talk with on occasion.

As much I can add to that for myself and everyone else, I would. If someone is going to live without getting anything in return promised to them, they ought at least be able to have as much as a human who set up a tent somewhere before the times anyone existed there who cared to stop them.

I would argue we can do WAY better than that as a society, and we can do as much as I asked above for myself and my own sake: Reliable walls and a secure door controlled by the occupant that exits out into a place where they feel unthreatened, and from which they may come and go for as long as they decide to return, and to wander as far as they may before their space is judged vacant. I would say we should provision food for such people as would be available with some work, and various forms of work/education/care they may engage with (or not).

If I would love to have this, why would I assume that others would not: A place to watch the roaches climb the wall.

 

[thebeave]

Insufferable prick Gavin Newsom freaks out that voters in California will vote in favor of Prop 36;



Prop 36 will roll back much of the "Safe Neighborhoods and Schools Act" Prop 47 which was enacted 10 years ago and got us to where we are now, massive retail theft and "homeless" junkies shitting in the streets etc.

Newsom HATES democracy. He did his best to stop the initiative getting on the ballot. Prick.

Incidentally, current VP and presidential candidate dopey Kamala Harris was involved in writing the disastrous Prop47. No surprise she has yet to comment on it's potential repeal when asked.

Apparently, KH as California AG herself came up with the name "Safe Neighborhoods and Schools Act". I wonder if she also came up with the name of the government spendapalooza "Inflation Reduction Act"?

Gavin said in his video that he has 991 bills headed to his desk to read and sign/veto. I'm sure I'd get a good laugh (or cry) out of the content of the bills that those knuckleheads in the legislature are writing. There's probably one in there to require people give their pets gender neutral names or risk jail time.

 

[Elixir]

There's probably one in there to require people give their pets gender neutral names send their pets to Springfield OH or risk jail time.

FIFY

Seriously though - to what do you attribute the lowering of the inflation rate from 9% to 2.5% in less than three years, if not the "spendapalooza" (I think that's the infrastructure bill) of the inflation reduction act? Knocking down the American inflation rate by two thirds while there's still global inflation from the Trump/Chyyna pandemic is no mean feat IMHO. Why are people so reticent to give credit where it's due? You can't blame inflation on Biden/Harris, then attribute its control to other factors. Blaming it on Biden/Harris in the first place is pretty silly. It peaked less than a year and a half after their administration began.

The annual inflation rate, as measured by the Consumer Price Index, was 1.7 percent in February 2021 but rose to more than 5 percent in June 2021

Who thinks Presidents can just cause instant inflation anyhow? Let alone GLOBAL inflation?
That takes years of fucking up, in reality. Thanks, Donald.
It could have taken even longer to fix it, but at least we had an effective President, even if the show was boring. Controlled inflation, brought down drug costs, ended the Afghan war, REDUCED violent crime, REDUCED illegal immigration, didn't make backroom deals with dictators or let his offspring in-laws sell 2 billion $ worth of favors to murderous Islamists, his offspring didn't extort millions of dollars worth of patents from the Chinese ...
WTF do you want' anyway?
Oh yeah... Hunter's laptop. I forgot.
Never mind.

 

[TSwizzle]

Apparently, KH as California AG herself came up with the name "Safe Neighborhoods and Schools Act".

Harris also wrote the summary that appears on the ballot measure. This is what probably fooled a lot of people into voting for the stupid measure.

 

[thebeave]

There's probably one in there to require people give their pets gender neutral names send their pets to Springfield OH or risk jail time.

FIFY

Seriously though - to what do you attribute the lowering of the inflation rate from 9% to 2.5% in less than three years, if not the "spendapalooza" (I think that's the infrastructure bill) of the inflation reduction act? Knocking down the American inflation rate by two thirds while there's still global inflation from the Trump/Chyyna pandemic is no mean feat IMHO. Why are people so reticent to give credit where it's due? You can't blame inflation on Biden/Harris, then attribute its control to other factors. Blaming it on Biden/Harris in the first place is pretty silly. It peaked less than a year and a half after their administration began.

The annual inflation rate, as measured by the Consumer Price Index, was 1.7 percent in February 2021 but rose to more than 5 percent in June 2021

Who thinks Presidents can just cause instant inflation anyhow? Let alone GLOBAL inflation?
That takes years of fucking up, in reality. Thanks, Donald.
It could have taken even longer to fix it, but at least we had an effective President, even if the show was boring. Controlled inflation, brought down drug costs, ended the Afghan war, REDUCED violent crime, REDUCED illegal immigration, didn't make backroom deals with dictators or let his offspring in-laws sell 2 billion $ worth of favors to murderous Islamists, his offspring didn't extort millions of dollars worth of patents from the Chinese ...
WTF do you want' anyway?
Oh yeah... Hunter's laptop. I forgot.
Never mind.

I'm not saying there was no benefit in having the Inflation Reduction Act. Just that it was a misnomer...inflation reduction was not its purpose or achievement.

Yes, inflation is down. No, the Inflation Reduction Act doesn’t deserve the credit

WASHINGTON (AP) — Even President Joe Biden has some regrets about the name of the Inflation Reduction Act: As the giant law turns 1 on Wednesday, it’s increasingly clear that immediately curbing prices wasn’t the point.

While price increases have cooled over the past year — the inflation rate has dropped from 9% to 3.2% — most economists say little to none of the drop came from the law.

“I can’t think of any mechanism by which it would have brought down inflation to date,” said Harvard University economist Jason Furman, who added that the law could eventually help to lower electricity bills.

Alex Arnon, an economic and budget analyst for the University of Pennsylvania’s Penn Wharton Budget Model, offers a similar assessment.

“We can say with pretty strong confidence that it was mostly other factors that have brought inflation down,’’ he said. “The IRA has just not been a significant factor.’’

 

[Elixir]

“We can say with pretty strong confidence that it was mostly other factors that have brought inflation down,’’ he said. “The IRA has just not been a significant factor.’’

Right. I was under the impression that you were laying blame for inflation on Biden’s doorstep. I think we know where it actually belongs.

 

[Politesse]

jeezus, you really can’t help yourself

??

Yes, I know Emily claims not to be a conservative, but what she's angry about is that conservatives are being falsely accused of calling for fascist solutions. If she's right that this is unreasonable, she doesn't just need to clarify her own "liberal" position on carceral state solutions, but to demonstrate that the people she's angrily defending also do not support mass incarceration.

 

[TSwizzle]

Yes, I know Emily claims not to be a conservative, but what she's angry about is that conservatives are being falsely accused of calling for fascist solutions. If she's right that this is unreasonable, she doesn't just need to clarify her own "liberal" position on carceral state solutions, but to demonstrate that the people she's angrily defending also do not support mass incarceration.

lol, behave yourself. You (and you are not alone in this) throw out bullshit statements that nobody on here has said or defended and attribute to imaginary people that are friends of Emily and say Emily is defending it?!

lol. You’re all over the place. So silly too.

 

[Derec]

Right. I was under the impression that you were laying blame for inflation on Biden’s doorstep. I think we know where it actually belongs.

Part of it, albeit not all, certainly belongs on Biden's doorstep. He left the Pandemic era largess go on far longer than necessary, flooding the economy with new money. And note that he wanted an additional $3.5T in non-infrastructure spending, which would have made inflation even worse.

 

[Politesse]

Yes, I know Emily claims not to be a conservative, but what she's angry about is that conservatives are being falsely accused of calling for fascist solutions. If she's right that this is unreasonable, she doesn't just need to clarify her own "liberal" position on carceral state solutions, but to demonstrate that the people she's angrily defending also do not support mass incarceration.

lol, behave yourself. You (and you are not alone in this) throw out bullshit statements that nobody on here has said or defended and attribute to imaginary people that are friends of Emily and say Emily is defending it?!

lol. You’re all over the place. So silly too.

So, now we have a new valiant but vague defender.

Go ahead. Correct me. What is the proposed Republican solution to homelessness, and in particular what should be done about the homeless encampments?