Breakdown In Civil Order

[Loren Pechtel]

Incarceration is literally being held in prison. Rehab facilities are not prisons.

If you aren't allowed to leave, you are incarcerated, no matter what you call the facility.

I swear this ends up being linguistic terrorism. It's inane.

I wasn't allowed to leave campus in high school, but it would be ridiculous to say that I was "incarcerated" during high school. There are any number of situations where a person isn't allowed to leave a venue or location for a period of time, and it would be downright absurd to refer to them as "incarceration".

There are minimum security jails you can walk away from.

 

[Toni]

It used to be the case (and maybe still is) that you could have someone involuntarily committed for drug detox and/or for serious mental health crisis. 72 hr. hold. My inlaws tried that in desperation with my BIL who had serious substance abuse issues. It did not work.

My understanding is that it takes a threat of suicide to trigger such a lockup, but the only crazy I have any connection to is not in the US legal system and the problem isn't one of self-harm, anyway.

I understand that there are circumstances where it can work: say someone with serious bipolar disorder or schizophrenia feels better on their meds, to the extent that they believe they don't need the meds anymore, so they go off, lose their equilibrium and need hospitalization in order to stabilize again. This is me, making up the circumstance under which involuntary commitment might be worthwhile. I do know absolutely that it is an issue for some people with some psychiatric illnesses going off their meds, believing they are cured or feeling that the side effects are causing them more problems than the disease.

It's seeing the side effects as worse than the disease. Usually a false perception (their memories of the time off the meds are often inaccurate) and often the burden falls on those around. If you don't pose a danger to others I think it should be your choice, but I have very little tolerance for harm inflicted in such situations. Off your meds should be a major aggravating factor in any criminal case.

My understanding from a number of people, professionals and those taking medications for psychiatric illnesses is that the side effects of some meds can be pretty unpleasant and very difficult to manage.

 

[Elixir]

My understanding from a number of people, professionals and those taking medications for psychiatric illnesses is that the side effects of some meds can be pretty unpleasant and very difficult to manage.

I got the same understanding from people living with people taking medications for psychiatric illnesses. It’s a real problem trying to anticipate what the person might do next, and it’s not often something good.

 

[Jarhyn]

Never mind that for the VAST majority of primate existence, eating what you found was easy enough and few people ever actually participated in acquiring that food.

Seriously, bro, if you want to go back to a prehistoric existence, livingi n a cave and just hoping you don't get dysentery or starve to death, go find a mountainside to live on. There are plenty of spaces in the US that are untamed and you can live out your noble savage fantasy to your heart's content.

But don't think that you should be entitled to live your lotus-eater life while expecting other people to put in the hard work to keep you alive.

Ah, liberals. All heart, they are.

Jesus fuck, that was demented.

Nowhere on earth is there a place where people in America can just conveniently go find a mountainside to live on that is none of (cult), (protected park land), or (owned by someone else).

Actually, it is possible depending on your definition of "live". Pitch a tent at night, pack it up and move on by day.

The power to do that without eventually being stopped is an extreme luxury these days. The only place it is really possible, especially in a community environment, is in a homeless encampment, and even that is illegal in many/most places.

Yeah, it's not possible in a community environment.

Realistically, it's the sort of thing where so long as you stay under the radar little is likely to be done about it. People have a problem with homeless encampments because they're very much not staying under the radar.

I would hazard to say that 90% of the problem comes from 10% of the population, and that by dealing with that 10% of troublemakers will resolve said 90% of the issue.

Given that this 10% of troublemakers in any group is active in disregarding the rights of others, I am not bothered by disregarding their rights and saying "if you can't let people live freely out here, we won't let you live freely out here", and give them options for exile to a geographically confined place, incarceration to a built confinement, or rehabilitation in a confinement.

You have essentially created a false dichotomy: some people would take both paths, incarcerating the recidivist troublemakers who cause the vast majority of problems, while allowing the rest to just live their lives in the presence of assistance programs and safe(ish) sites for rough(ish) living.

Either way, though, society bears the burden: either the burden of housing and "rehabilitating" people who clearly would resist the effort, or by letting society bear the consequences of allowing them to continue bu the do, but I want neither and both: where society bears the burden through creating an available but unforced pathway to rehabilitation, where they are warehoused in a specific and less problematic region of any area they find themselves, and where the most problematic elements of the community are removed to more appropriate situations.

 

[Elixir]

There are minimum security jails you can walk away from.

And if you do and get caught, you get put somewhere much worse, according to two different “inmates” I talked to about those so-called halfway houses. They were kept track of minute by minute, and subject to adjusted levels of freedom based on past performance. Ouch.

 

[TSwizzle]

Newsom goes nuclear on "homeless" encampments;

California Gov. Gavin Newsom announced Friday that the state is awarding 18 communities with nearly $131 million to clear homeless encampments while also providing shelter and support. The funding, which totals $130.7 million, comes from the Encampment Resolution Funding program to help 18 cities, counties and continuums of care.

CBS News

Newsom clearly trying to position himself as the next presidential nominee when dopey Harris loses this election.

 

[Elixir]

Newsom clearly trying to position himself as the next presidential nominee when dopey Harris loses this election.

Hey, that’s the same thing you said about him NOT going nuclear on the “homeless problem”.
You have a real hard-on for poor Gavin.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's seeing the side effects as worse than the disease. Usually a false perception (their memories of the time off the meds are often inaccurate) and often the burden falls on those around. If you don't pose a danger to others I think it should be your choice, but I have very little tolerance for harm inflicted in such situations. Off your meds should be a major aggravating factor in any criminal case.

My understanding from a number of people, professionals and those taking medications for psychiatric illnesses is that the side effects of some meds can be pretty unpleasant and very difficult to manage.

That's not a rebuttal. Yes, the side effects can be pretty bad. What I'm saying is that many patients are unable to make a reasonable comparison between the with and without states so we don't know if the drugs are truly worse or not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The power to do that without eventually being stopped is an extreme luxury these days. The only place it is really possible, especially in a community environment, is in a homeless encampment, and even that is illegal in many/most places.

Yeah, it's not possible in a community environment.

Realistically, it's the sort of thing where so long as you stay under the radar little is likely to be done about it. People have a problem with homeless encampments because they're very much not staying under the radar.

I would hazard to say that 90% of the problem comes from 10% of the population, and that by dealing with that 10% of troublemakers will resolve said 90% of the issue.

Don't know about 90/10 but it wouldn't surprise me at all. Problems tend to be highly concentrated in most areas.

You have essentially created a false dichotomy: some people would take both paths, incarcerating the recidivist troublemakers who cause the vast majority of problems, while allowing the rest to just live their lives in the presence of assistance programs and safe(ish) sites for rough(ish) living.

I am saying that we do not currently deal with the troublemakers, not that it is impossible to do so. The middle ground is probably the right answer but neither side will consider it.

 

[Toni]

It's seeing the side effects as worse than the disease. Usually a false perception (their memories of the time off the meds are often inaccurate) and often the burden falls on those around. If you don't pose a danger to others I think it should be your choice, but I have very little tolerance for harm inflicted in such situations. Off your meds should be a major aggravating factor in any criminal case.

My understanding from a number of people, professionals and those taking medications for psychiatric illnesses is that the side effects of some meds can be pretty unpleasant and very difficult to manage.

That's not a rebuttal. Yes, the side effects can be pretty bad. What I'm saying is that many patients are unable to make a reasonable comparison between the with and without states so we don't know if the drugs are truly worse or not.

WE don't know because WE are not on those drugs or at least I am not. I have known plenty of people on antidepressants and some much more serious medications for much more than depression and yes, those can have undesirable side effects, some very undesirable and sometimes, they are just not the correct medication(s).

We already know that people often stop taking antibiotics when they feel better rather than completing the course as directed. And we know that plenty of people will cut down on their meds to save money. It is not at all surprising that people who are taking heavy duty psychotropic drugs will hope to go off of those drugs and may be lulled into a false sense of security as the treatment works and those symptoms dissipate--but side effects remain. Not to mention that those drugs are not perfect in their abilities to manage serious symptoms and can conflict with other medications....

 

[TSwizzle]

I remember a lot of people taking issue having to remain in their homes during the pandemic.

Do you also remember that there was nothing actually wrong with the people that were told/forced to remain at home?

 

[TomC]

Do you also remember that there was nothing actually wrong with the people that were told/forced to remain at home?

False, and you (should) know that.

Most people had nothing actually wrong with them but there were enough plague rats to keep the virus spreading. That made the epidemic and the resulting problems much worse than might have been.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I started up on Star Trek DS9 again. Season 3 they have the two part episode when Sisko, Dax, and Bashaer go back in time to August 2024. They are in the sanctuary portion of San Francisco, an area created because of lack of employment and housing. They weren't too far off on that one.

I remember a lot of people taking issue having to remain in their homes during the pandemic.

Do you also remember that there was nothing actually wrong with the people that were told/forced to remain at home?

It must be real hard to go through life not understanding how things work.

 

[TSwizzle]

I remember a lot of people taking issue having to remain in their homes during the pandemic.

Do you also remember that there was nothing actually wrong with the people that were told/forced to remain at home?

It must be real hard to go through life not understanding how things work.

You choose not to acknowledge it. Cool.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I remember a lot of people taking issue having to remain in their homes during the pandemic.

Do you also remember that there was nothing actually wrong with the people that were told/forced to remain at home?

It must be real hard to go through life not understanding how things work.

You choose not to acknowledge it. Cool.

With Covid-19, "nothing wrong" didn't mean they were not carriers of Covid-19. Lots of people had Covid-19 and have been oblivious to it. Which, along with its particularly high transmissibility, made it so easy to spread. IE, a bunch of "nothing wrong" folks out spreading the contagion.

 

[Emily Lake]

WE don't know because WE are not on those drugs or at least I am not. I have known plenty of people on antidepressants and some much more serious medications for much more than depression and yes, those can have undesirable side effects, some very undesirable and sometimes, they are just not the correct medication(s).

We're not talking about mood disorders here, so references to antidepressants are irrelevant.

We already know that people often stop taking antibiotics when they feel better rather than completing the course as directed. And we know that plenty of people will cut down on their meds to save money.

References to bacterial infections are also irrelevant.

It is not at all surprising that people who are taking heavy duty psychotropic drugs will hope to go off of those drugs and may be lulled into a false sense of security as the treatment works and those symptoms dissipate--but side effects remain. Not to mention that those drugs are not perfect in their abilities to manage serious symptoms and can conflict with other medications....

The difference is that for those with disorders that present with delusions and/or hallucinations, when they go off their meds because they don't like the side effects, they become a danger to themselves and others.

 

[Elixir]

WE don't know because WE are not on those drugs or at least I am not. I have known plenty of people on antidepressants and some much more serious medications for much more than depression and yes, those can have undesirable side effects, some very undesirable and sometimes, they are just not the correct medication(s).

We're not talking about mood disorders here, so references to antidepressants are irrelevant.

We already know that people often stop taking antibiotics when they feel better rather than completing the course as directed. And we know that plenty of people will cut down on their meds to save money.

References to bacterial infections are also irrelevant.

It is not at all surprising that people who are taking heavy duty psychotropic drugs will hope to go off of those drugs and may be lulled into a false sense of security as the treatment works and those symptoms dissipate--but side effects remain. Not to mention that those drugs are not perfect in their abilities to manage serious symptoms and can conflict with other medications....

The difference is that for those with disorders that present with delusions and/or hallucinations, when they go off their meds because they don't like the side effects, they become a danger to themselves and others.

The Brits have known that forever. That’s why there’s Australia.

 

[Toni]

WE don't know because WE are not on those drugs or at least I am not. I have known plenty of people on antidepressants and some much more serious medications for much more than depression and yes, those can have undesirable side effects, some very undesirable and sometimes, they are just not the correct medication(s).

We're not talking about mood disorders here, so references to antidepressants are irrelevant.

We already know that people often stop taking antibiotics when they feel better rather than completing the course as directed. And we know that plenty of people will cut down on their meds to save money.

References to bacterial infections are also irrelevant.

It is not at all surprising that people who are taking heavy duty psychotropic drugs will hope to go off of those drugs and may be lulled into a false sense of security as the treatment works and those symptoms dissipate--but side effects remain. Not to mention that those drugs are not perfect in their abilities to manage serious symptoms and can conflict with other medications....

The difference is that for those with disorders that present with delusions and/or hallucinations, when they go off their meds because they don't like the side effects, they become a danger to themselves and others.

Not irrelevant—mentioned because anti-depressant ts are extremely common and have many fewer and less serious side effects compared with some more heavy duty psychotropic meds. And yet, many people find those relatively minor side effects intolerable. While it is extremely unwise to decide not to take medications for various mental illnesses, it is important to understand that people stop taking them because they think they don’t need them anymore and the side effects can be very difficult.

WE don't know because WE are not on those drugs or at least I am not. I have known plenty of people on antidepressants and some much more serious medications for much more than depression and yes, those can have undesirable side effects, some very undesirable and sometimes, they are just not the correct medication(s).

We're not talking about mood disorders here, so references to antidepressants are irrelevant.

We already know that people often stop taking antibiotics when they feel better rather than completing the course as directed. And we know that plenty of people will cut down on their meds to save money.

References to bacterial infections are also irrelevant.

It is not at all surprising that people who are taking heavy duty psychotropic drugs will hope to go off of those drugs and may be lulled into a false sense of security as the treatment works and those symptoms dissipate--but side effects remain. Not to mention that those drugs are not perfect in their abilities to manage serious symptoms and can conflict with other medications....

The difference is that for those with disorders that present with delusions and/or hallucinations, when they go off their meds because they don't like the side effects, they become a danger to themselves and others.

Yes, that’s the issue. The side effects of the meds can be difficult to tolerate. And they can also believe they no longer need those meds. And yes, they can become a danger to themselves and on rare occasions, to others.

As far as people going off of their meds for depression, doing so abruptly can trigger very serious negative side effects with respect to the person’s ability to think and behave rationally. I’ve seen that happen. They can become a danger to themselves and on occasion, to others.

Failing to take a full course of antibiotics can lead to drug resistant bacteria—putting others in danger.

Failing to get recommended vaccinations can have serious negative consequences for those who choose not to be vaccinated —and for those who cannot be vaccinated.

And so on.

 

[Emily Lake]

WE don't know because WE are not on those drugs or at least I am not. I have known plenty of people on antidepressants and some much more serious medications for much more than depression and yes, those can have undesirable side effects, some very undesirable and sometimes, they are just not the correct medication(s).

We're not talking about mood disorders here, so references to antidepressants are irrelevant.

We already know that people often stop taking antibiotics when they feel better rather than completing the course as directed. And we know that plenty of people will cut down on their meds to save money.

References to bacterial infections are also irrelevant.

It is not at all surprising that people who are taking heavy duty psychotropic drugs will hope to go off of those drugs and may be lulled into a false sense of security as the treatment works and those symptoms dissipate--but side effects remain. Not to mention that those drugs are not perfect in their abilities to manage serious symptoms and can conflict with other medications....

The difference is that for those with disorders that present with delusions and/or hallucinations, when they go off their meds because they don't like the side effects, they become a danger to themselves and others.

The Brits have known that forever. That’s why there’s Australia.

Somehow I don't think that deporting the US's population of schizophrenics and psychotics to Australia would be considered acceptable behavior these days...

 

[ZiprHead]

WE don't know because WE are not on those drugs or at least I am not. I have known plenty of people on antidepressants and some much more serious medications for much more than depression and yes, those can have undesirable side effects, some very undesirable and sometimes, they are just not the correct medication(s).

We're not talking about mood disorders here, so references to antidepressants are irrelevant.

We already know that people often stop taking antibiotics when they feel better rather than completing the course as directed. And we know that plenty of people will cut down on their meds to save money.

References to bacterial infections are also irrelevant.

It is not at all surprising that people who are taking heavy duty psychotropic drugs will hope to go off of those drugs and may be lulled into a false sense of security as the treatment works and those symptoms dissipate--but side effects remain. Not to mention that those drugs are not perfect in their abilities to manage serious symptoms and can conflict with other medications....

The difference is that for those with disorders that present with delusions and/or hallucinations, when they go off their meds because they don't like the side effects, they become a danger to themselves and others.

The Brits have known that forever. That’s why there’s Australia.

Somehow I don't think that deporting the US's population of schizophrenics and psychotics to Australia would be considered acceptable behavior these days...

I think we should try it. At least Australia has experience dealing with such things.

JK Not really.