Breakdown In Civil Order

[Loren Pechtel]

Solving the very broad issue of unhoused people is not likely to be a single one size fits all solution unless we want to simply incarcerate people for the crime of having nowhere to go.

Oh FFS, for like the fifteenth time spread across multiple threads:

1) Fund residential mental health facilities for those with severe mental health disorders, particularly those presenting with hallucination and/or delusion. These are people that are unable to care for themselves, unable to hold down a job. They need care in a place that keeps them safe as well as safeguarding the rest of society from them.

2) Involuntary rehab for drug abusers who are unable or unwilling to maintain a job while abstaining from substance abuse and undergoing effective outpatient therapy. I don't lump all drugs together, but the reality is that meth heads and a substantial number of opioid/opiate users cannot stop on their own.

And neither of these work.

Involuntary mental health treatment is useless. Involuntary rehab is useless.

I do agree with trying to help those that are homeless for economic reasons, but those aren't the ones causing the problems.

 

[Politesse]

Solving the very broad issue of unhoused people is not likely to be a single one size fits all solution unless we want to simply incarcerate people for the crime of having nowhere to go.

Oh FFS, for like the fifteenth time spread across multiple threads:

1) Fund residential mental health facilities for those with severe mental health disorders, particularly those presenting with hallucination and/or delusion. These are people that are unable to care for themselves, unable to hold down a job. They need care in a place that keeps them safe as well as safeguarding the rest of society from them.

2) Involuntary rehab for drug abusers who are unable or unwilling to maintain a job while abstaining from substance abuse and undergoing effective outpatient therapy. I don't lump all drugs together, but the reality is that meth heads and a substantial number of opioid/opiate users cannot stop on their own.

3) Subsidized safe housing for those who do not have severe mental health or substance abuse disorders. I think it might be reasonable to provide separate housing for single adults than for families with children. This should include education and job training and a program to get them employed and into their own housing, not be a permanent dumping ground where nothing else is done except shelter. The objective should be independence.

4) Substantial investment in young childhood education, and an emphasis throughout primary and secondary school on the skills and knowledge needed to be an independent contributor to society.

I have given this same run down multiple times in multiple threads, and I'm sick to fucking death of people with an axe to grind and a complete lack of integrity repeatedly turning around and pretending like none of it exists and then proceeding to pull bullshit out of their asses and pretend like I want to throw everyone in jail or see them die. It's malicious, it's evil, and it's dishonest.

And you believe that the Republican party supports these policies?

Nor do I think much of your solutions, even on their own merits. What exactly is "involuntary rehab"? Do you point a gun at someone and force them to say the twelve steps, or what? How can a rehabilitation process possibly be involuntary? Rehab is less than fully effective when the sufferer is trying their best to cooperate.

 

[Jarhyn]

Never mind that for the VAST majority of primate existence, eating what you found was easy enough and few people ever actually participated in acquiring that food.

Seriously, bro, if you want to go back to a prehistoric existence, livingi n a cave and just hoping you don't get dysentery or starve to death, go find a mountainside to live on. There are plenty of spaces in the US that are untamed and you can live out your noble savage fantasy to your heart's content.

But don't think that you should be entitled to live your lotus-eater life while expecting other people to put in the hard work to keep you alive.

Ah, liberals. All heart, they are.

Jesus fuck, that was demented.

Nowhere on earth is there a place where people in America can just conveniently go find a mountainside to live on that is none of (cult), (protected park land), or (owned by someone else).

The power to do that without eventually being stopped is an extreme luxury these days. The only place it is really possible, especially in a community environment, is in a homeless encampment, and even that is illegal in many/most places.

And what fucking interminable gall to say the evolved state of humanity, the thing "that we have been the most for most of history" is "lotus eating".

 

[Jarhyn]

Solving the very broad issue of unhoused people is not likely to be a single one size fits all solution unless we want to simply incarcerate people for the crime of having nowhere to go.

Oh FFS, for like the fifteenth time spread across multiple threads:

1) Fund residential mental health facilities for those with severe mental health disorders, particularly those presenting with hallucination and/or delusion. These are people that are unable to care for themselves, unable to hold down a job. They need care in a place that keeps them safe as well as safeguarding the rest of society from them.

2) Involuntary rehab for drug abusers who are unable or unwilling to maintain a job while abstaining from substance abuse and undergoing effective outpatient therapy. I don't lump all drugs together, but the reality is that meth heads and a substantial number of opioid/opiate users cannot stop on their own.

3) Subsidized safe housing for those who do not have severe mental health or substance abuse disorders. I think it might be reasonable to provide separate housing for single adults than for families with children. This should include education and job training and a program to get them employed and into their own housing, not be a permanent dumping ground where nothing else is done except shelter. The objective should be independence.

4) Substantial investment in young childhood education, and an emphasis throughout primary and secondary school on the skills and knowledge needed to be an independent contributor to society.

I have given this same run down multiple times in multiple threads, and I'm sick to fucking death of people with an axe to grind and a complete lack of integrity repeatedly turning around and pretending like none of it exists and then proceeding to pull bullshit out of their asses and pretend like I want to throw everyone in jail or see them die. It's malicious, it's evil, and it's dishonest.

And you believe that the Republican party supports these policies?

Nor do I think much of your solutions, even on their own merits. What exactly is "involuntary rehab"? Do you point a gun at someone and force them to say the twelve steps, or what? How can a rehabilitation process possibly be involuntary? Rehab is less than fully effective when the sufferer is trying their best to cooperate.

Not to mention that forcing someone into some form of closed environment because they do not conform to your social expectations, especially in a climate where those social expectations veer away from acknowledgement of the human condition itself, seems particularly bent as a worldview.

You know, there was a famous work camp that became something else about 80 years ago. "Work makes us free".

The thing is, Nazism or rather the end result of all fascism doesn't look like most people today expect. It doesn't always or even ever really start out looking like red arm bands and goose stepping marches through streets. Sure, some people will be so obvious but the reason it actually works is because they can and do regularly couch it in terms people can find at sufficiently comfortable.

If it didn't at least sound a bit reasonable when presented in such pusillanimous terms (such as "involuntary rehabilitation") to hide, disregard, or otherwise hold themselves in ignorance of what that means to be executed at scale, they would never get off the ground. It will always been put in terms to make apprehending, warehousing, and ultimately forcing people to act some highly contrived way will sooner lead to direct resistance and humans rights abuse than people happily acting that way.

 

[Toni]

Solving the very broad issue of unhoused people is not likely to be a single one size fits all solution unless we want to simply incarcerate people for the crime of having nowhere to go.

Oh FFS, for like the fifteenth time spread across multiple threads:

1) Fund residential mental health facilities for those with severe mental health disorders, particularly those presenting with hallucination and/or delusion. These are people that are unable to care for themselves, unable to hold down a job. They need care in a place that keeps them safe as well as safeguarding the rest of society from them.

2) Involuntary rehab for drug abusers who are unable or unwilling to maintain a job while abstaining from substance abuse and undergoing effective outpatient therapy. I don't lump all drugs together, but the reality is that meth heads and a substantial number of opioid/opiate users cannot stop on their own.

3) Subsidized safe housing for those who do not have severe mental health or substance abuse disorders. I think it might be reasonable to provide separate housing for single adults than for families with children. This should include education and job training and a program to get them employed and into their own housing, not be a permanent dumping ground where nothing else is done except shelter. The objective should be independence.

4) Substantial investment in young childhood education, and an emphasis throughout primary and secondary school on the skills and knowledge needed to be an independent contributor to society.

I have given this same run down multiple times in multiple threads, and I'm sick to fucking death of people with an axe to grind and a complete lack of integrity repeatedly turning around and pretending like none of it exists and then proceeding to pull bullshit out of their asses and pretend like I want to throw everyone in jail or see them die. It's malicious, it's evil, and it's dishonest.

And you believe that the Republican party supports these policies?

Nor do I think much of your solutions, even on their own merits. What exactly is "involuntary rehab"? Do you point a gun at someone and force them to say the twelve steps, or what? How can a rehabilitation process possibly be involuntary? Rehab is less than fully effective when the sufferer is trying their best to cooperate.

It used to be the case (and maybe still is) that you could have someone involuntarily committed for drug detox and/or for serious mental health crisis. 72 hr. hold. My inlaws tried that in desperation with my BIL who had serious substance abuse issues. It did not work.

I understand that there are circumstances where it can work: say someone with serious bipolar disorder or schizophrenia feels better on their meds, to the extent that they believe they don't need the meds anymore, so they go off, lose their equilibrium and need hospitalization in order to stabilize again. This is me, making up the circumstance under which involuntary commitment might be worthwhile. I do know absolutely that it is an issue for some people with some psychiatric illnesses going off their meds, believing they are cured or feeling that the side effects are causing them more problems than the disease.

 

[Emily Lake]

Ya sure Emily. You got a plan; GET RID OF “THEM”.

This is a blatant falsehood that you are spewing.

What’s the plan Emily? Show me that I am mistaken. You already mentioned incarceration. And what purpose does it serve? Why, it gets rid of “them”.

Bullshit. Learn to read and stop making shit up.

 

[Emily Lake]

Solving the very broad issue of unhoused people is not likely to be a single one size fits all solution unless we want to simply incarcerate people for the crime of having nowhere to go.

Oh FFS, for like the fifteenth time spread across multiple threads:

1) Fund residential mental health facilities for those with severe mental health disorders, particularly those presenting with hallucination and/or delusion. These are people that are unable to care for themselves, unable to hold down a job. They need care in a place that keeps them safe as well as safeguarding the rest of society from them.

2) Involuntary rehab for drug abusers who are unable or unwilling to maintain a job while abstaining from substance abuse and undergoing effective outpatient therapy. I don't lump all drugs together, but the reality is that meth heads and a substantial number of opioid/opiate users cannot stop on their own.

And neither of these work.

Involuntary mental health treatment is useless. Involuntary rehab is useless.

I do agree with trying to help those that are homeless for economic reasons, but those aren't the ones causing the problems.

I didn't suggest just mental health treatment. Some degree of treatment is appropriate, certainly. But I specifically said residential facilities - literally places that house the severely mentally disordered so that both they and everyone else is safe. That doesn't assume some kind of magical cure. But it does keep those poor individuals from becoming victims... and it also keeps everyone else safe from the occasional psychotic break.

And well, until you have a better and more reasonable option than rehab for those who are unable or unwilling to maintain basic requirements for living I kind of think inpatient rehab is the most reasonable option we've got. What's your alternative, Mr. Smart Guy?

 

[Emily Lake]

Solving the very broad issue of unhoused people is not likely to be a single one size fits all solution unless we want to simply incarcerate people for the crime of having nowhere to go.

Oh FFS, for like the fifteenth time spread across multiple threads:

1) Fund residential mental health facilities for those with severe mental health disorders, particularly those presenting with hallucination and/or delusion. These are people that are unable to care for themselves, unable to hold down a job. They need care in a place that keeps them safe as well as safeguarding the rest of society from them.

2) Involuntary rehab for drug abusers who are unable or unwilling to maintain a job while abstaining from substance abuse and undergoing effective outpatient therapy. I don't lump all drugs together, but the reality is that meth heads and a substantial number of opioid/opiate users cannot stop on their own.

3) Subsidized safe housing for those who do not have severe mental health or substance abuse disorders. I think it might be reasonable to provide separate housing for single adults than for families with children. This should include education and job training and a program to get them employed and into their own housing, not be a permanent dumping ground where nothing else is done except shelter. The objective should be independence.

4) Substantial investment in young childhood education, and an emphasis throughout primary and secondary school on the skills and knowledge needed to be an independent contributor to society.

I have given this same run down multiple times in multiple threads, and I'm sick to fucking death of people with an axe to grind and a complete lack of integrity repeatedly turning around and pretending like none of it exists and then proceeding to pull bullshit out of their asses and pretend like I want to throw everyone in jail or see them die. It's malicious, it's evil, and it's dishonest.

And you believe that the Republican party supports these policies?

I don't give a shit if the republican party supports these policies. I never claimed they did, nor do I support them, so I don't know what the fuck they have to do with what I think is the most reasonable approach.

Nor do I think much of your solutions, even on their own merits. What exactly is "involuntary rehab"? Do you point a gun at someone and force them to say the twelve steps, or what? How can a rehabilitation process possibly be involuntary? Rehab is less than fully effective when the sufferer is trying their best to cooperate.

Great. You bitch that nobody is offering solutions, you join in the pile-on of other people complaining that I've not presented any way to address it, and you insinuate (but of course avoid outright saying) that I support gas chambers and "getting rid of" the homeless.

And when I do present at least some means to address this multifaceted issue... all you can do is whine that we can't rehab people because... well... I dunno. Apparently you think just leaving the addicts to roam around homeless and dangerous is a fine idea? What exactly is YOUR fucking plan? And you didn't even bother to fucking actually read for comprehension, did you? How about you give that another go and get back to me? I'll even help you out and bold the part that you failed to read.

 

[Emily Lake]

Never mind that for the VAST majority of primate existence, eating what you found was easy enough and few people ever actually participated in acquiring that food.

Seriously, bro, if you want to go back to a prehistoric existence, livingi n a cave and just hoping you don't get dysentery or starve to death, go find a mountainside to live on. There are plenty of spaces in the US that are untamed and you can live out your noble savage fantasy to your heart's content.

But don't think that you should be entitled to live your lotus-eater life while expecting other people to put in the hard work to keep you alive.

Ah, liberals. All heart, they are.

Jesus fuck, that was demented.

Nowhere on earth is there a place where people in America can just conveniently go find a mountainside to live on that is none of (cult), (protected park land), or (owned by someone else).

The power to do that without eventually being stopped is an extreme luxury these days. The only place it is really possible, especially in a community environment, is in a homeless encampment, and even that is illegal in many/most places.

And what fucking interminable gall to say the evolved state of humanity, the thing "that we have been the most for most of history" is "lotus eating".

It's like you're completely unaware of Appalachia, the interior of FL, and the wilderness of several extremely large national forests. Sure, it's technically owned by the federal government, but hermits live there. Go join them.

 

[ZiprHead]

Ya sure Emily. You got a plan; GET RID OF “THEM”.

This is a blatant falsehood that you are spewing.

What’s the plan Emily? Show me that I am mistaken. You already mentioned incarceration. And what purpose does it serve? Why, it gets rid of “them”.

Bullshit. Learn to read and stop making shit up.

Involuntary rehab sure sounds like incarceration to me.

 

[Emily Lake]

Ya sure Emily. You got a plan; GET RID OF “THEM”.

This is a blatant falsehood that you are spewing.

What’s the plan Emily? Show me that I am mistaken. You already mentioned incarceration. And what purpose does it serve? Why, it gets rid of “them”.

Bullshit. Learn to read and stop making shit up.

Involuntary rehab sure sounds like incarceration to me.

Incarceration is literally being held in prison. Rehab facilities are not prisons.

Do you have any suggestions of your own, are you down with the "let them eat cake it's all fine" approach?

 

[Politesse]

Incarceration is literally being held in prison. Rehab facilities are not prisons.

If you aren't allowed to leave, you are incarcerated, no matter what you call the facility.

 

[ZiprHead]

Ya sure Emily. You got a plan; GET RID OF “THEM”.

This is a blatant falsehood that you are spewing.

What’s the plan Emily? Show me that I am mistaken. You already mentioned incarceration. And what purpose does it serve? Why, it gets rid of “them”.

Bullshit. Learn to read and stop making shit up.

Involuntary rehab sure sounds like incarceration to me.

Incarceration is literally being held in prison. Rehab facilities are not prisons.

What's the difference? Frankly, it's probably even worse because it's not in the justice system so you have no access to bail or a defense attorney.

Do you have any suggestions of your own, are you down with the "let them eat cake it's all fine" approach?

What makes you think that's my approach? You get quite upset when you feel people are putting words in your mouth but it very clearly appears you are not above doing the same, right down to the quotation marks.

 

[Elixir]

Rehab facilities are not prisons.

Oh? What do they look like? Do they provide free food shelter snd clothing? I might apply.
Do you have to fill out paperwork? That will probably disqualify me; I hate paperwork. And also anyone who isn’t literate.

Donald Trump knows how to get rid of Them! Fast. And humanely. It’s like your idea Emily but your idea is just some buildings you put Them in that they can’t easily leave, right?

Maybe if a little production work can be going on there, and some private corporation owned by actual Americans runs the place, we can train Them to work their asses off for free, and the experience will actually rehab Them. It can save us from the disastrous Harris economy! That way we don’t even have to actually legalize slavery.

So it’s like your expensive commie mandatory entitlement idea Emily, except more profitable.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Solving the very broad issue of unhoused people is not likely to be a single one size fits all solution unless we want to simply incarcerate people for the crime of having nowhere to go.

Oh FFS, for like the fifteenth time spread across multiple threads:

1) Fund residential mental health facilities for those with severe mental health disorders, particularly those presenting with hallucination and/or delusion. These are people that are unable to care for themselves, unable to hold down a job. They need care in a place that keeps them safe as well as safeguarding the rest of society from them.

2) Involuntary rehab for drug abusers who are unable or unwilling to maintain a job while abstaining from substance abuse and undergoing effective outpatient therapy. I don't lump all drugs together, but the reality is that meth heads and a substantial number of opioid/opiate users cannot stop on their own.

And neither of these work.

Involuntary mental health treatment is useless. Involuntary rehab is useless.

I do agree with trying to help those that are homeless for economic reasons, but those aren't the ones causing the problems.

I didn't suggest just mental health treatment. Some degree of treatment is appropriate, certainly. But I specifically said residential facilities - literally places that house the severely mentally disordered so that both they and everyone else is safe. That doesn't assume some kind of magical cure. But it does keep those poor individuals from becoming victims... and it also keeps everyone else safe from the occasional psychotic break.

This would be great. It'll costs tens of billions of dollars, maybe even a hundred billion dollars, but it'd be great. We also don't have a shot in fuck of enacting such a program. GOP state governments are too busy criminalizing being homeless, rather than trying to tackle the ridiculously complicated issues of homelessness, addiction, and generalized human imperfections. The bigger problem is we lack the infrastructure (housing, medical facilities, and staffing) to run such a program. There are probably at least 100 million Americans that'd scoff at the idea of some people getting perpetual room and board at no cost. Especially when we can just criminalize it and pretend that does something.

Americans are too busy under-cutting each other to care about people in a plight they don't think they'll ever see themselves in. 40 years of Reaganomics has fucked our nation's soul.

So while I applaud your idea, I'm curious if you have any idea that has a shot in heck of actually occurring.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ya sure Emily. You got a plan; GET RID OF “THEM”.

This is a blatant falsehood that you are spewing.

What’s the plan Emily? Show me that I am mistaken. You already mentioned incarceration. And what purpose does it serve? Why, it gets rid of “them”.

Bullshit. Learn to read and stop making shit up.

Involuntary rehab sure sounds like incarceration to me.

Incarceration is literally being held in prison. Rehab facilities are not prisons.

I remember a lot of people taking issue having to remain in their homes during the pandemic. Forget being in an unfamiliar place whilst during a mental health breakdown. But once again, people only take issue with civil liberties being restricted in such a manner that they feel they or someone they are close to could be impacted.

 

[Elixir]

This would be great. It'll costs tens of billions of dollars, maybe even a hundred billion dollars, but it'd be great. We also don't have a shot in fuck of enacting such a program.

That’s the beauty of. It won’t happen, so it’s FREE! But what a fantastic idea, eh?

GOP state governments are too busy criminalizing being homeless, rather than trying to tackle the ridiculously complicated issues of homelessness, addiction, and generalized human imperfections.

Imprisoning Them is big business.

The bigger problem is we lack the infrastructure (housing, medical facilities, and staffing) to run such a program.

Free housing, medical facilities, treatments and servants (staff) could almost be paid for with the profit from imprisoning the rest of Them. But it’s gone private.

There are probably at least 100 million Americans that'd scoff at the idea of some people getting perpetual room and board at no cost. Especially when we can just criminalize it and pretend that does something.

MAGA!!
But we have stalwarts like Emily standing in the way, heavily armed with pie in the sky.

If you aren't allowed to leave, you are incarcerated, no matter what you call the facility.

Hey, call it whatever you want. At least it gets rid of Them!!
If the facility is not “secured” and the happy “residents” are allowed - or even remotely able - to leave, They will. QED BY THOUSANDS OF SUCH PROJECTS.

So Waddya gonna do, Emily?
Got any practical ideas?

 

[Emily Lake]

Incarceration is literally being held in prison. Rehab facilities are not prisons.

If you aren't allowed to leave, you are incarcerated, no matter what you call the facility.

I swear this ends up being linguistic terrorism. It's inane.

I wasn't allowed to leave campus in high school, but it would be ridiculous to say that I was "incarcerated" during high school. There are any number of situations where a person isn't allowed to leave a venue or location for a period of time, and it would be downright absurd to refer to them as "incarceration".

Why can't you guys just have an honest discussion without having to resort to malicious interpretations, putting words in people's mouths, attributing ill intent, and taking the absolute worst possible way to frame a post? Do you think this sort of behavior is giving you "wins"? Do you think it's effective? Do you think you're changing anyone's minds or gaining support? Or do you just really enjoy being mean and cruel to other people? Do you thrive on being intolerant and casting other people as evil so you can justify treating them poorly?

 

[Emily Lake]

This would be great. It'll costs tens of billions of dollars, maybe even a hundred billion dollars, but it'd be great. We also don't have a shot in fuck of enacting such a program. GOP state governments are too busy criminalizing being homeless, rather than trying to tackle the ridiculously complicated issues of homelessness, addiction, and generalized human imperfections. The bigger problem is we lack the infrastructure (housing, medical facilities, and staffing) to run such a program. There are probably at least 100 million Americans that'd scoff at the idea of some people getting perpetual room and board at no cost. Especially when we can just criminalize it and pretend that does something.

Americans are too busy under-cutting each other to care about people in a plight they don't think they'll ever see themselves in. 40 years of Reaganomics has fucked our nation's soul.

So while I applaud your idea, I'm curious if you have any idea that has a shot in heck of actually occurring.

I give up. Nobody else has proposed anything that meets your just-now-arbitrarily-added requirement of being inexpensive. Nobody else has suggested anything that has a chance in hell of being enacted either.

So I guess we'll just stick with leaving people on the streets and fucking up life for EVERYONE.

But hey, you can find a way to blame it on "those guys" so I suppose that makes it okay that your guys don't have a fucking solution either.

 

[Emily Lake]

Forget being in an unfamiliar place whilst during a mental health breakdown.

As opposed to literally being on the streets with no protection?