Breakdown In Civil Order

[lpetrich]

Uh, the liberal policies of the 60's and 70's produced such a shocking increase of crime ...

Yes, the "liberal policy" of spewing lead into the air because of putting tetraethyl lead in gasoline. How Lead Caused America's Violent Crime Epidemic

Shit man, even Biden referenced the liberal crime policies of the 60's in the video above.

I don't care how much hippie-punching he did in that speech.

 

[Trausti]

Uh, the liberal policies of the 60's and 70's produced such a shocking increase of crime ...

Yes, the "liberal policy" of spewing lead into the air because of putting tetraethyl lead in gasoline. How Lead Caused America's Violent Crime Epidemic

Shit man, even Biden referenced the liberal crime policies of the 60's in the video above.

I don't care how much hippie-punching he did in that speech.

I'm sure you don't.

 

[Hermit]

You still seem to be forgetting about this.

No, I have not.

Now try to match this

with this.

I'll wait.

 

[Trausti]

You still seem to be forgetting about this.

No, I have not.

Now try to match this

with this.

I'll wait.

The lowest time for

You still seem to be forgetting about this.

No, I have not.

Now try to match this

with this.

I'll wait.

Your peak incarceration mirrors your low for violent crime.

 

[Trausti]

1993 is like a miracle year. I don't care for the current dementia man in the White House. If we could have 1993 Biden back, that would be great.

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

National rates of gun homicide and other violent gun crimes are strikingly lower now than during their peak in the mid-1990s, paralleling a general decline in violent crime, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of government data. Beneath the long-term trend, though, are big differences...

www.pewresearch.org

 

[lpetrich]

This is the sort of thing that makes me suspect that their real feelings about crime victims are very different.

I do not think the wishes of most victims of crime are to have some sort of Kumbaya moment with the perp, which is what these "restorative justice" fantasies sound like. ...

I'm disappointed with the lack of research that I find here.

An important part of restorative justice, and one that impresses me about it, is that the criminal must accept that he/she has done wrong to his/her victims.

• Restorative Justice | Restorative Justice
• About Restorative Justice | Restorative Justice
• Tutorial: Introduction to Restorative Justice | Restorative Justice
• Lesson 1: What Is Restorative Justice? | Restorative Justice

Restorative justice views crime as more than breaking the law – it also causes harm to people, relationships, and the community. So a just response must address those harms as well as the wrongdoing. If the parties are willing, the best way to do this is to help them meet to discuss those harms and how to about bring resolution. Other approaches are available if they are unable or unwilling to meet. Sometimes those meetings lead to transformational changes in their lives.

Looking at this, I get the impression that many right-wingers respect criminals who refused to accept that they did anything wrong, and also that they think that crime victims are somehow at fault for letting the crimes happen to them. I say the latter bit because they don't seem to be in favor of doing anything direct for crime victims.

• 
  To review: restorative justice...
• is a different way of thinking about crime and our response to crime
• focuses on repairing the harm caused by crime and reducing future harm through crime prevention
• requires offenders to take responsibility for their actions and for the harm they have caused
• seeks redress for victims, recompense by offenders and reintegration of both within the community
• requires a cooperative effort by communities and the government

• Inclusion | Restorative Justice
• Encounter | Restorative Justice
• Amends | Restorative Justice
• Reintegration | Restorative Justice

Inclusion: Restorative justice processes are more inclusive than the traditional criminal justice processes. They actively invite all affected parties--victims, offenders, and community members--to participate in resolving the crime.

Encounter: Restorative justice places a high value on having the victim and offender encounter one another. This encounter might be done directly in a meeting between the two (and perhaps others as well) with a facilitator assisting them. It can be done indirectly through exchange of letters, videos and by messages delivered by a third party.

Amends: Restorative justice seeks to repair the harm done by crime. Whenever possible this repair should be done by the persons responsible for the harm. That is why restorative justice values efforts by offenders to make amends.

Reintegration: Crime causes injuries. It also can result in both the victim and offender experiencing stigmatization. Therefore, restorative justice places a high value on the reintegration of the victim and of the offender. The goal is to have them become whole, contributing members of their communities.

There is plenty more at that site.

Now, a lot of stuff is criminalized that really should not be. Minor moving violations should be classified as infractions, not misdemeanors. Things like marijuana and consensual sex work should be completely legal.

I actually agree with that.

 

[Trausti]

This is the sort of thing that makes me suspect that their real feelings about crime victims are very different.

I do not think the wishes of most victims of crime are to have some sort of Kumbaya moment with the perp, which is what these "restorative justice" fantasies sound like. ...

I'm disappointed with the lack of research that I find here.

An important part of restorative justice, and one that impresses me about it, is that the criminal must accept that he/she has done wrong to his/her victims.

• Restorative Justice | Restorative Justice
• About Restorative Justice | Restorative Justice
• Tutorial: Introduction to Restorative Justice | Restorative Justice
• Lesson 1: What Is Restorative Justice? | Restorative Justice

Restorative justice views crime as more than breaking the law – it also causes harm to people, relationships, and the community. So a just response must address those harms as well as the wrongdoing. If the parties are willing, the best way to do this is to help them meet to discuss those harms and how to about bring resolution. Other approaches are available if they are unable or unwilling to meet. Sometimes those meetings lead to transformational changes in their lives.

Looking at this, I get the impression that many right-wingers respect criminals who refused to accept that they did anything wrong, and also that they think that crime victims are somehow at fault for letting the crimes happen to them. I say the latter bit because they don't seem to be in favor of doing anything direct for crime victims.

• 
  To review: restorative justice...
• is a different way of thinking about crime and our response to crime
• focuses on repairing the harm caused by crime and reducing future harm through crime prevention
• requires offenders to take responsibility for their actions and for the harm they have caused
• seeks redress for victims, recompense by offenders and reintegration of both within the community
• requires a cooperative effort by communities and the government

• Inclusion | Restorative Justice
• Encounter | Restorative Justice
• Amends | Restorative Justice
• Reintegration | Restorative Justice

Inclusion: Restorative justice processes are more inclusive than the traditional criminal justice processes. They actively invite all affected parties--victims, offenders, and community members--to participate in resolving the crime.

Encounter: Restorative justice places a high value on having the victim and offender encounter one another. This encounter might be done directly in a meeting between the two (and perhaps others as well) with a facilitator assisting them. It can be done indirectly through exchange of letters, videos and by messages delivered by a third party.

Amends: Restorative justice seeks to repair the harm done by crime. Whenever possible this repair should be done by the persons responsible for the harm. That is why restorative justice values efforts by offenders to make amends.

Reintegration: Crime causes injuries. It also can result in both the victim and offender experiencing stigmatization. Therefore, restorative justice places a high value on the reintegration of the victim and of the offender. The goal is to have them become whole, contributing members of their communities.

There is plenty more at that site.

Now, a lot of stuff is criminalized that really should not be. Minor moving violations should be classified as infractions, not misdemeanors. Things like marijuana and consensual sex work should be completely legal.

I actually agree with that.

Yes! Tell the rape victim, or the parents of a murdered child, or the assaulted grandma to meet and befriend the criminal predator. Just say you're sorry. All is better. Fucking genius.

 

[Hermit]

Your peak incarceration mirrors your low for violent crime.

What graphs are looking at? The low point of crime rates was in 1961, when the incarceration rate was also at a historical low.

Anyway, as I mentioned a short time ago, picking one data point that supports an assertion and ignoring others that do not is an egregious example of cherry picking. There is no way that the data the two graphs represent can be made to show that lower rates of incarceration - result in higher crime rates, or vice versa. The fact that incarceration rates rose sharply in the years spanning 1974 and 1991 while the rates of violent crimes also increased significantly (from 461 to 758 per 100,000 of the US population) in the same years makes it difficult, to say the least.

But do try. I'll wait.

 

[lpetrich]

(me on restorative justice)

Yes! Tell the rape victim, or the parents of a murdered child, or the assaulted grandma to meet and befriend the criminal predator. Just say you're sorry. All is better. Fucking genius.

A silly caricature of RJ. An important part of it is paying attention to victims' concerns. If all that crime victims ever want is "Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill!" then RJ would take a form that reflects that.

Restitution | Restorative Justice

Victim Support and Restorative Justice | Restorative Justice

Working Respectfully with Victims | Restorative Justice

Restorative Justice 101 for Victims – Just Alternatives

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Phase-out of leaded petrol brings huge health and cost benefits – UN–backed study | | UN News

Ridding the world of leaded petrol, with the United Nations leading the effort in developing countries, has resulted in $2.4 trillion in annual benefits, 1.2 million fewer premature deaths, higher overall intelligence and 58 million fewer crimes, according to a new study released today.

End Of Leaded Gasoline: World Has Stopped Using Toxic Additive : NPR

 

[bilby]

Crime isn't increasing. Reporting of crime is;

Is this a joke?

No, it's a fairly simple and straightforward statement of fact. Do you have any evidence at all that I am wrong?

So you suggest there are heaps of dead bodies that no noticed before May 2020?

No, I mean non-batshit crazy strawman type evidence.

 

[Trausti]

Crime isn't increasing. Reporting of crime is;

Is this a joke?

No, it's a fairly simple and straightforward statement of fact. Do you have any evidence at all that I am wrong?

So you suggest there are heaps of dead bodies that no noticed before May 2020?

No, I mean non-batshit crazy strawman type evidence.

What straw man? You think there weren’t excess homicides in the last two years? And how often do you think people report the smaller stuff when they know police won’t do anything about it?

 

[Hermit]

1993 is like a miracle year. I don't care for the current dementia man in the White House. If we could have 1993 Biden back, that would be great.

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

National rates of gun homicide and other violent gun crimes are strikingly lower now than during their peak in the mid-1990s, paralleling a general decline in violent crime, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of government data. Beneath the long-term trend, though, are big differences...

www.pewresearch.org

More cherry picking. Those eight years of dropping crime rates were preceded by 18 years where crime rates and incarceration rates rose simultaneously, and another 10 years where crime rates rose significantly while incarceration rates remained almost unchanging before that. Given your assertion of harsher punishment reducing crime neither should have happened. If you were right, the trends shown in the graph below would be mirror images of each other, at least approximately so. That is not even remotely the case.

 

[Emily Lake]

Two wrongs don't make a right; A violent criminal suffering a long and unpleasant jail sentence isn't helping their victims.

I'm pretty sure that a violent criminal serving a long and unpleasant jail sentence protects other innocent people from becoming victims.

 

[Elixir]

I'm pretty sure that a violent criminal serving a long and unpleasant jail sentence protects other innocent people from becoming victims.

But what about their freedom???
Protecting other people is the the other people's own responsibility, just ask any anti-vaxer!

 

[bilby]

Two wrongs don't make a right; A violent criminal suffering a long and unpleasant jail sentence isn't helping their victims.

I'm pretty sure that a violent criminal serving a long and unpleasant jail sentence protects other innocent people from becoming victims.

Yeah, but that's because you believe that "violent criminal" is a class of unperson, rather than an action by a real human person.

Most violent crime isn't perpetrated by people who are fundamentally evil or cruel; It's their circumstances, not their personality types, that make them commit crimes.

One (of many) ways to change a person's circumstances in an attempt to ensure that they commit fewer violent crimes in future is to lock them up. It's one of the least efficient, and least effective - violent criminals often commit further violent crimes while in jail. That their victims might also be criminals, should not mislead us into believing that their crimes while in jail are any less serious than those committed in wider society.

The problem here is that right-wing authoritarians think that they could, if only the bleeding heart liberals would let them, eliminate almost all crime by simply identifying and incarcerating the criminals, leaving the honest, upright and law abiding people free.

But as Solzhenitsyn observed,

The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts.

You cannot incarcerate all the "bad guys", because we are all, given the wrong circumstances, the "bad guys".

The sooner this crazy false dichotomy of good people and evil people dies in a fire, the better. It's one of the most harmful mistakes granted to us by monotheistic religion.

There are a tiny number of genuine psychopaths and other people who either do not resile from evil, or actively seek to be evil. That minuscule population doesn't need jail, it needs secure psychiatric care.

Everyone else just needs to be placed in circumstances where it is preferable for them to eschew crime as a way of life. The least effective way to achieve this is the threat of incarceration; The second least effective is incarceration itself.

 

[TSwizzle]

Another murder perpetrated by a "homeless" person;

A homeless serial criminal accused of murdering an ad creative after following her into her apartment knifed the woman 40 times with one of her own knives - and had a sexual motive for doing so, a court heard. Assamad Nash was charged with sexually-motivated burglary by prosecutors Monday, as it was revealed his victim Christina Yuan Lee was found topless in the bathtub of her Chinatown apartment Sunday. The charge suggests a possible motive for the brutal murder, which shocked NYC and raised fresh questions about New York state's bail reforms, after it was revealed Nash was a serial criminal on bail for robbery when he allegedly killed. Nash has three additional open criminal cases - one for assaulting a Brooklyn man, 63-year-old David Elliot, in a subway station. He has been arrested multiple times for assault, possession of drugs and harassment over the last two years. He was due back in court for the Elliot case next month and is currently being held in Bellevue hospital for psychiatric evaluation. Elliot, who works at Rutgers University, told The New York Post he was shocked the 'clearly' mentally ill Nash was free to roam the streets after attacking him at Grand Central Station. 'I was watching the news at 5 o'clock, and I seen them taking him out of the apartment and I said, 'That's the guy that f***ing hit me!'' Elliot said. 'He shouldn't have been out on the streets — hell no.'

Daily Mail

And of course, the SJW can't resist an opportunity to stoke the non existent race angle. Pathetic.

Residents near the victim's building in Chinatown held a rally on Monday to decry violence against the Asian community.

 

[Emily Lake]

Yeah, but that's because you believe that "violent criminal" is a class of unperson, rather than an action by a real human person.

Bullshit. Don't tell me what I think. How about you get off of your fucking high-horse and ASK me about my views instead of inventing them out of whole cloth?

I think nothing of the sort. On the other hand, the overwhelming majority of people do NOT EVER commit violent crimes of any sort. While there is certainly an element of circumstances involved, many violent criminals are NOT "poor downtrodden souls just trying to eat". Many of them are simply selfish, opportunistic predators who do not care about the harm they do to other people.

Setting wolves loose among the sheep is a horrible, reckless, and inhumane view. Shooting all canines on sight because they might be wolves is *also* a horrible, reckless, and inhumane view. But keeping the wolves separated from the sheep is a very good idea, and having some reasonable triage in place to identify whether a given canine is a wolf, a random starving mutt, or a sheepdog is an excellent idea.

 

[ZiprHead]

Irony is dead.

 

[Politesse]

Another murder perpetrated by a "homeless" person;

A homeless serial criminal accused of murdering an ad creative after following her into her apartment knifed the woman 40 times with one of her own knives - and had a sexual motive for doing so, a court heard. Assamad Nash was charged with sexually-motivated burglary by prosecutors Monday, as it was revealed his victim Christina Yuan Lee was found topless in the bathtub of her Chinatown apartment Sunday. The charge suggests a possible motive for the brutal murder, which shocked NYC and raised fresh questions about New York state's bail reforms, after it was revealed Nash was a serial criminal on bail for robbery when he allegedly killed. Nash has three additional open criminal cases - one for assaulting a Brooklyn man, 63-year-old David Elliot, in a subway station. He has been arrested multiple times for assault, possession of drugs and harassment over the last two years. He was due back in court for the Elliot case next month and is currently being held in Bellevue hospital for psychiatric evaluation. Elliot, who works at Rutgers University, told The New York Post he was shocked the 'clearly' mentally ill Nash was free to roam the streets after attacking him at Grand Central Station. 'I was watching the news at 5 o'clock, and I seen them taking him out of the apartment and I said, 'That's the guy that f***ing hit me!'' Elliot said. 'He shouldn't have been out on the streets — hell no.'

Daily Mail

And of course, the SJW can't resist an opportunity to stoke the non existent race angle. Pathetic.

Residents near the victim's building in Chinatown held a rally on Monday to decry violence against the Asian community.

What do you feel should have been done differently with Nash's case?

 

[TSwizzle]

What do you feel should have been done differently with Nash's case?

I don't know the details of this case but I would say that releasing him (a violent, serial criminal) onto the streets was not a good judgement call considering he was "homeless".