Breakdown In Civil Order

[Jarhyn]

I have defined various usages of the term "magic" well

You've humpty-dumptied your way into trying to force a word to mean something you want it to. Nobody thinks you're an actual real literal wizard. At best, some people might be awed by your technical skills and consider you a "wizard" in a euphemistic sense. But you are not, in actuality, a literal wizard.

You can't argue with this. Reality exists independent of your fantasies.

The reality that exists is you continuing to attempt to split the thread with a red herring involving your tantrums over "wizards" and "magic".

I can objectively describe the material reality of anything I claim exists, including that which, in the vernacular of other people who likewise, at least as seriously as I do, take up identity as "wizard".

If you wish to start a thread about that, to ahead.

Now, there is also the matter of the following, which you keep claiming I don't exist, as a red herring so as to avoid it

I know things about your mind exactly from the words that spill out of it and if you don't like people seeing into your mind through your words you can always simply stop speaking them

Complete and utter confidence, of the sort that is "100%", that YOU are better and YOU would never be bad to others is a sure enough indicator that you are not, but rather you are merely 100% blind to your own failings.

 

[bilby]

I will, however, insist that I am not even remotely a closeted rapist, and I can absolutely guarantee that there are no circumstance that will turn me into one.

Your abject lack of self awareness, and your woeful lack of imagination has been noted.

You can stop labouring the point now; I am fully aware that you think that you are more human than violent criminals are, and that you imagine them to be fundamentally different, and therefore irredeemable, just as you are incorruptible.

That you are completely wrong is so bleeding obvious that I don't see any point in continuing to attempt to persuade you that your religious conviction of a hard line between good and evil is nonsensical. It's impossible to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

 

[Jarhyn]

I will, however, insist that I am not even remotely a closeted rapist, and I can absolutely guarantee that there are no circumstance that will turn me into one.

Your abject lack of self awareness, and your woeful lack of imagination has been noted.

You can stop labouring the point now; I am fully aware that you think that you are more human than violent criminals are, and that you imagine them to be fundamentally different, and therefore irredeemable, just as you are incorruptible.

That you are completely wrong is so bleeding obvious that I don't see any point in continuing to attempt to persuade you that your religious conviction of a hard line between good and evil is nonsensical. It's impossible to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

I can't help but be reminded of Betty Bowers...

 

[Trausti]

I am fully aware that you think that you are more human than violent criminals are, and that you imagine them to be fundamentally different,

They are fundamentally different.

Psychopathy and violence: increasing specificity

A large body of literature has established that the construct of psychopathy is broadly related to violence, and the clinical application of the psychopathy construct as a predictor of violence appears to be increasing. This increased application warrants ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[spikepipsqueak]

STAFF NOTICE

I see people misattributing meanings to others' posts.

I see people telling others what they are ALLOWED to believe and think, without recourse to logic or discussion.

Can we please read for comprehension, and argue towards clarity, rather than assuming reprehensible motives when other interpretations are possible?

 

[Hermit]

Based on your own statements, and using your "logic" of what your words imply, you think everyone on the planet is a closeted rapist and murderer.

Which part of

Most violent crime isn't perpetrated by people who are fundamentally evil or cruel; It's their circumstances, not their personality types, that make them commit crimes.

implies bilby thinks everyone on the planet is a closeted rapist and murderer?

 

[Enigma]

So that we don't get further dragged down into fruitless proclamations and discussions about who exactly is a secret closeted rapist, or whether on not magic is real, or whether or not China actually exists or is just an Geopolitical-Scale Evil Santa invented to scare people into supporting their representatives, I'd like to try to add a bit of nuance to this conversation:

I'm not about to question your perspective of your own predilections toward violence. I will, however, insist that I am not even remotely a closeted rapist, and I can absolutely guarantee that there are no circumstance that will turn me into one.

To be honest, I think you are overstating your case on this one, to your detriment.

I could be wrong, but I suspect there exists some profoundly disturbing (and possibly incredibly darkly hilarious) hypothetical situation that I could engineer and propose whereupon you would, given those circumstances, say something along the lines of "Given those circumstances, and given the profound horribleness of all of the alternatives available, screw it, I'd rape someone in that case." The point that you appear to be trying to get across is that outside of such absurdly improbable and highly engineered hypotheticals, rape is so incredibly morally abhorrent to you that it isn't something that you would ever consider doing and take active steps to avoid.

Even allowing for the "Absurdly engineered dark hypotheticals" caveat, I think it is profoundly wrong to say that it is purely a matter of circumstances whether or not someone is a rapist, or a criminal.

Let me illustrate by reframing the example a bit:

A large number of people are having a party on the top floor of a 100-story skyscraper. A non-zero number of them, before the night is over, may fall off of the skyscraper to their death.
Why might they fall? Would it just be a matter of circumstances?

Some could have fallen because they decided to jump off of the balcony.
Some could have fallen because they were on the balcony and got pushed off, because they had the bright idea that the balcony ledge was the perfect place for Impromptu Drunken Sumo Wrestling and they lost.
Some could have fallen because they got a thrill out of doing parkour tricks on the balcony ledge and slipped.
Some could have fallen because they wanted a close view of the Impromptu Drunken Sumo Wrestling and accidentally got too close, resulting in them getting pushed off.
.....
Some could have fallen because they went out to the balcony to get some fresh air and got blown unexpectedly by a huge gust of wind that put them off-balance onto a patch of ice that cause them to skid over the edge.
Some could have been inside and leaning on one of the full-length windows that fell off due to an issue involving poor maintenance, taking the person leaning on the window over the edge with it.
......
One person who hated heights and only went to this stupid party because they were told that they would be fired and rendered a social pariah if they didn't come, stayed as close to the central core of the building on the 100th floor and secured themselves as much as possible away from the edges of the building. They took so many precautions against falling that everyone else at the party considered them absurdly paranoid.
That person could have fallen because it is possible that, unbeknownst to everybody at the party, several high-explosives that happened to be placed at structurally important locations on the 95th floor just happened to spontaneously explode during the party. Without those supports, the 100th floor and everyone in it would fall off of the skyscraper to their death, regardless of preparations.

@Jarhyn
@bilby

Going down the list from the top, it seems the higher on the list a given person's potential cause of falling is, the less that said falling has to do with their circumstances and the more it has to do with their choices (which are to some extent determined by their personality types).

Does acknowledging this require considering some subset of the people on the above list as "subhuman" or "irredeemable"?

 

[Jarhyn]

Based on your own statements, and using your "logic" of what your words imply, you think everyone on the planet is a closeted rapist and murderer.

Which part of

Most violent crime isn't perpetrated by people who are fundamentally evil or cruel; It's their circumstances, not their personality types, that make them commit crimes.

implies bilby thinks everyone on the planet is a closeted rapist and murderer?

I can say that the implication emily makes is that, in fact, these things are qualitative rather than situational.

I would be willing even to entertain that certain things are more likely of some people than others, in some situations than others.

The abuses that Emily is likely to participate in are different from the abuses that Dahmer is likely to participate in. Context determines a lot.

I can easily imagine a world where some woman such as Emily finds herself thrown from a life of happiness and safety and privilege, through whatever events of war, into an existence where she would have to prostitute herself to stay alive and later, after being jaded to that life, she starts pimping others out as it is more lucrative.

I can as much imagine a world where Emily Lake would abuse a trans child into growing unwanted breasts, or development of an Adam's apple and voice change, or unwanted skeletal growth.

I can easily see them being abusive in other ways, too. The reason Betty Bowers is such a good example of a "shitty behavior" is exactly her blindness to her own behavior.

 

[TSwizzle]

New York;

A robber kicked a 57-year-old woman down the stairs and bashed her head repeatedly with a hammer at a New York City subway station just days after Mayor Eric Adams vowed to crack down on violence in the transit system. Shocking video outside the station in Queens Plaza, in Long Island City, shows the robber, walking with a cane, approach the woman, who has yet to be identified, as she carefully walks down the stairs to the subway platform on Thursday at 11:22 pm. The man begins to kick her in the back, attempting to knock her over, but when the victim stays on her feet and appears to try and slowly flee, he pulls out a hammer.

Daily Mail

I read about another incident on a New York train where a young man was executed, shot in the back of the head. Not random, the victim knew his killer, a fellow homeless guy.

Could have been any one of us. Committing the crime that is, if the circumstances were right.

 

[Trausti]

Could have been any one of us. Committing the crime that is, if the circumstances were right.

That’s what’s so ridiculous about our blank slate Jeff Dahmer wannabes. This callous, anti-social, behavior is not a product of circumstance; it’s who these people are. So many are psychopaths. But if you believe that people lack agency, you can’t understand human behavior.

 

[TSwizzle]

This cannot be a surprise to anyone;

The Metropolitan Transportation Agency (MTA) said there are nearly 350 homeless people living in almost 90 subway stations - as New York City Mayor Eric Adams promises to tackle the ongoing crisis as part of his new subway safety plan. Hundreds of homeless people were found camping out in New York City's subway tunnels and stations earlier this month, MTA officials said on Thursday. Transit workers and outreach employees found almost 30 'homeless encampments' in the tunnels and another 89 camps in stations.

Daily Mail

The situation is similar to cities in California such as San Francisco and Los Angeles. Newsom and Garcetti seem to think the problem can be solved by building $800k apartments. We shall see how things pan out.

 

[Politesse]

This cannot be a surprise to anyone;

The Metropolitan Transportation Agency (MTA) said there are nearly 350 homeless people living in almost 90 subway stations - as New York City Mayor Eric Adams promises to tackle the ongoing crisis as part of his new subway safety plan. Hundreds of homeless people were found camping out in New York City's subway tunnels and stations earlier this month, MTA officials said on Thursday. Transit workers and outreach employees found almost 30 'homeless encampments' in the tunnels and another 89 camps in stations.

Daily Mail

The situation is similar to cities in California such as San Francisco and Los Angeles. Newsom and Garcetti seem to think the problem can be solved by building $800k apartments. We shall see how things pan out.

What solution would you suggest to address the homelessness crisis?

 

[Jarhyn]

This cannot be a surprise to anyone;

The Metropolitan Transportation Agency (MTA) said there are nearly 350 homeless people living in almost 90 subway stations - as New York City Mayor Eric Adams promises to tackle the ongoing crisis as part of his new subway safety plan. Hundreds of homeless people were found camping out in New York City's subway tunnels and stations earlier this month, MTA officials said on Thursday. Transit workers and outreach employees found almost 30 'homeless encampments' in the tunnels and another 89 camps in stations.

Daily Mail

The situation is similar to cities in California such as San Francisco and Los Angeles. Newsom and Garcetti seem to think the problem can be solved by building $800k apartments. We shall see how things pan out.

What solution would you suggest to address the homelessness crisis?

Yes, let's see what kind of "Modest Proposal" TSwizzle has for us...

 

[Trausti]

This cannot be a surprise to anyone;

The Metropolitan Transportation Agency (MTA) said there are nearly 350 homeless people living in almost 90 subway stations - as New York City Mayor Eric Adams promises to tackle the ongoing crisis as part of his new subway safety plan. Hundreds of homeless people were found camping out in New York City's subway tunnels and stations earlier this month, MTA officials said on Thursday. Transit workers and outreach employees found almost 30 'homeless encampments' in the tunnels and another 89 camps in stations.

Daily Mail

The situation is similar to cities in California such as San Francisco and Los Angeles. Newsom and Garcetti seem to think the problem can be solved by building $800k apartments. We shall see how things pan out.

What solution would you suggest to address the homelessness crisis?

Yes, let's see what kind of "Modest Proposal" TSwizzle has for us...

Get people off drugs. If they shoplift, arrest them and get them treatment. Stop with the constant excuses. Amazon did not cause this.

 

[bilby]

Get people off drugs.

OMG! Why oh why has nobody thought of that sooner? That's brilliant. And so simple!

Oh, wait.

 

[Trausti]

Get people off drugs.

OMG! Why oh why has nobody thought of that sooner? That's brilliant. And so simple!

Oh, wait.

And it worked well when we did it. The current progressive wave allows for open drug use, non-prosecution of shoplifting/property crime, and "safe" injection sites. How could you ever hope to get someone back on their feet if you just let the drug use go on?

 

[bilby]

Get people off drugs.

OMG! Why oh why has nobody thought of that sooner? That's brilliant. And so simple!

Oh, wait.

And it worked well when we did it.

"when we did it"??

WTF are you smoking?

Nobody's ever "done it", in the entire history of drugs.

The current progressive wave allows for open drug use, non-prosecution of shoplifting/property crime, and "safe" injection sites. How could you ever hope to get someone back on their feet if you just let the drug use go on?

Well, you could try allowing open drug use, and providing safe locations for it.

It's worked very well indeed in places like Portugal, for example.

Or you could do a really half-arsed job of that, and then when it inevitably fails, you could point and clutch your pearls and say how dreadful it was not to treat drug addicts like the subhuman scum you always suspected that they were. Which is a much better option if you don't give a shit about drugs, but have a massive boner for bullying those less fortunate than you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Get people off drugs.

OMG! Why oh why has nobody thought of that sooner? That's brilliant. And so simple!

Oh, wait.

And it worked well when we did it. The current progressive wave allows for open drug use, non-prosecution of shoplifting/property crime, and "safe" injection sites. How could you ever hope to get someone back on their feet if you just let the drug use go on?

Your approach has been demonstrated to fail. Why do you expect it to work any better if you keep at it?

 

[Trausti]

Get people off drugs.

OMG! Why oh why has nobody thought of that sooner? That's brilliant. And so simple!

Oh, wait.

And it worked well when we did it. The current progressive wave allows for open drug use, non-prosecution of shoplifting/property crime, and "safe" injection sites. How could you ever hope to get someone back on their feet if you just let the drug use go on?

Your approach has been demonstrated to fail. Why do you expect it to work any better if you keep at it?

No. Ever since Seattle adopted the drugs are okay approach, the number of homeless has gone up. The more $$$ we spend the more homelessness we get. Do you really think a drug addict can handle monthly rent, let alone hold down a job? If we really cared about people we’d try our best to get the them off this poison.

 

[Hermit]

Get people off drugs.

OMG! Why oh why has nobody thought of that sooner? That's brilliant. And so simple!

Oh, wait.

And it worked well when we did it.

Sure did.