Breakdown In Civil Order

[Oleg]

I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.

Devastating acts of violence. Devastating? Hyperbole much?

How often are violent criminals actually released early and commit serious crimes? Probably not too often. Yes, it likely happens, but to the point that we are going to suggest it is endemic in our society? No, it isn't. The truth is, outside of Seattle, crime has recently risen and dropped... depending on the crimes one looks at, including California. Some violent crimes are up, some aren't. We see this broadly across the country (red and blue). But some want to just point at certain crimes and yell the sky is falling because of the Dems (...and Gov. Newsom) all the while rural murder rate is up 25%.

We do have a catch-and-release problem. The problem is that we went a bit too far in bail reform. I agree with the basic concept--we had a problem where being stuck in jail without being able to afford bail ended up being the de-facto punishment in many cases and note that since that's before the trial there was no determination of guilt.

Unfortunately, going to a zero-bail system means that repeat offenders stay out of jail until trial--and the longer the period between offense and punishment the less deterrence there is.

What I would like to see is a middle ground: zero-bail until you violate it or reoffend. If you're out on zero-bail and are arrested for something else go back to the old system. If you fail to show up when you're supposed to there is a rebuttable presumption that you can't be trusted and you don't get zero-bail in the future. (Not a certainty--things happen. People fail to get notifications of date changes, transportation breakdowns happen etc. Not everybody has money for a taxi when the car doesn't go, you don't even have that option if there was an accident... Last night I was watching a presentation by a local mountaineering group--they got tied up by the police for hours because they found a freshly-dead body in the wilderness. Most of the time when us backcountry guys find a body there's no questions because the body has obviously been there for a while, but in this case it was less than one hour--less time than it took search and rescue to get there.)

A reasoned poistion, and if our system were otherwise just and fair, I think it would be the best course of action.

Yes. What’s frustrating is that some on the progressive left want to give offenders endless chances resulting in higher crime and less public order. Give a second chance, sure. If a person still keeps offending, that’s that.

 

[lostone]

What's also frustrating is that the failed war on drugs leads to so much crime and that no one will do anything about it.

 

[Elixir]

What's also frustrating is that the failed war on drugs leads to so much crime and that no one will do anything about it.

NORML started in 1970. A year earlier I was arrested for being in a car where marijuana was found (not my car or pot).
Almost exactly 50 years later, where I live now, if you were out driving around you and were stopped by a cop, you could get out of the ticket (curfew violation) by telling him you were going to buy some pot.
Pretty glacial, but it's movement!

 

[bilby]

I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.

Devastating acts of violence. Devastating? Hyperbole much?

How often are violent criminals actually released early and commit serious crimes? Probably not too often. Yes, it likely happens, but to the point that we are going to suggest it is endemic in our society? No, it isn't. The truth is, outside of Seattle, crime has recently risen and dropped... depending on the crimes one looks at, including California. Some violent crimes are up, some aren't. We see this broadly across the country (red and blue). But some want to just point at certain crimes and yell the sky is falling because of the Dems (...and Gov. Newsom) all the while rural murder rate is up 25%.

We do have a catch-and-release problem. The problem is that we went a bit too far in bail reform. I agree with the basic concept--we had a problem where being stuck in jail without being able to afford bail ended up being the de-facto punishment in many cases and note that since that's before the trial there was no determination of guilt.

Unfortunately, going to a zero-bail system means that repeat offenders stay out of jail until trial--and the longer the period between offense and punishment the less deterrence there is.

What I would like to see is a middle ground: zero-bail until you violate it or reoffend. If you're out on zero-bail and are arrested for something else go back to the old system. If you fail to show up when you're supposed to there is a rebuttable presumption that you can't be trusted and you don't get zero-bail in the future. (Not a certainty--things happen. People fail to get notifications of date changes, transportation breakdowns happen etc. Not everybody has money for a taxi when the car doesn't go, you don't even have that option if there was an accident... Last night I was watching a presentation by a local mountaineering group--they got tied up by the police for hours because they found a freshly-dead body in the wilderness. Most of the time when us backcountry guys find a body there's no questions because the body has obviously been there for a while, but in this case it was less than one hour--less time than it took search and rescue to get there.)

That's just a(nother) bandaid solution.

The problem is that justice delayed is justice denied.

Arrestees are innocent in law until convicted; It is therefore incumbent upon the system to ensure that trials occur without delay, so that those who are ultimately acquitted are freed from the burden of suspicion as soon as possible, and so that those who are ultimately convicted are removed from the opportunity to reoffend as soon as possible.

Achieving the latter by imprisonment of lawfully innocent citizens is a fucking terrible idea. Making those citizens pay money for their freedom is an even worse idea.

Your entire legal system, from policing, through arrest, bail, and trial, to the penalties and conditions imposed on convicts, is a shitty mess of compromises, held together with bandaid remedies for sucking chest wound scale injustices.

If you started from scratch trying to design a system that minimised crime, minimised recidivism, and minimised the consequences of false accusations, you wouldn't end up with a system much like anything that exists today.

The entire concept of jail as the main option for dealing with convicted criminals is absurd, particularly given the huge gulf between the concept of depriving someone of their liberty; and the reality of depriving them of liberty, dignity, safety, enfranchisement, protection from forced labour, and any effective redress of issues.

You can tell a great deal about a society from the way it treats it's convicts.

 

[bilby]

Please show me the stats showing the rampant rise in crime in San Francisco relative to the rest of the country. A few Tweets don't count.

Steve Bank is out of Seattle and Seattle legitimately appears to be having a disproportionate increase in crime relative to the nation, San Francisco hasn't.

Those tweets do count. They're all showing people that should have been behind bars, unable to commit the repeated offenses they were committing.

But they don't show the people behind bars, innocent of any crime, waiting for their chance to clear their name in court.

If you only look at half of the issue, it's unsurprising that your conclusions about what issues need addressing most urgently are badly skewed.

 

[bilby]

A reasoned poistion, and if our system were otherwise just and fair, I think it would be the best course of action.

If your system were otherwise just and fair, it would be practically unrecognisable.

 

[Politesse]

A reasoned poistion, and if our system were otherwise just and fair, I think it would be the best course of action.

If your system were otherwise just and fair, it would be practically unrecognisable.

Also true.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Arrestees are innocent in law until convicted; It is therefore incumbent upon the system to ensure that trials occur without delay, so that those who are ultimately acquitted are freed from the burden of suspicion as soon as possible, and so that those who are ultimately convicted are removed from the opportunity to reoffend as soon as possible.

Unfortunately neither prosecution nor defense can actually function fast enough for this to be the answer. It's not so much the actual process as the waits for external things.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Please show me the stats showing the rampant rise in crime in San Francisco relative to the rest of the country. A few Tweets don't count.

Steve Bank is out of Seattle and Seattle legitimately appears to be having a disproportionate increase in crime relative to the nation, San Francisco hasn't.

Those tweets do count. They're all showing people that should have been behind bars, unable to commit the repeated offenses they were committing.

But they don't show the people behind bars, innocent of any crime, waiting for their chance to clear their name in court.

If you only look at half of the issue, it's unsurprising that your conclusions about what issues need addressing most urgently are badly skewed.

You think there's any reasonable chance they're innocent?!

Picked up for a crime you didn't commit certainly does happen. Picked up many times for different crimes you didn't actually commit? Exceedingly unlikely.

 

[bilby]

Please show me the stats showing the rampant rise in crime in San Francisco relative to the rest of the country. A few Tweets don't count.

Steve Bank is out of Seattle and Seattle legitimately appears to be having a disproportionate increase in crime relative to the nation, San Francisco hasn't.

Those tweets do count. They're all showing people that should have been behind bars, unable to commit the repeated offenses they were committing.

But they don't show the people behind bars, innocent of any crime, waiting for their chance to clear their name in court.

If you only look at half of the issue, it's unsurprising that your conclusions about what issues need addressing most urgently are badly skewed.

You think there's any reasonable chance they're innocent?!

Yes.

And in law, it's a FACT that they are innocent.

Picked up for a crime you didn't commit certainly does happen. Picked up many times for different crimes you didn't actually commit? Exceedingly unlikely.

Assuming completely fair, unbiased and incorruptible police.

That's a highly dubious assumption, particularly given the proliferation of tiny police departments in the USA.

 

[TSwizzle]

This is what we have to put up with in "The Fifth Largest Economy In The World"^TM

A Los Angeles homeless man known for openly defecating on Ventura Boulevard is seen on video obtained by FOX 11 hurling a bag of feces onto the hood of a business owner’s SUV. "Every single day, every single morning, I’m wiping that off my property before I have to do business," Paul Scrivano, owner of The Blue Dog Beer Tavern, told the news team at the scene. "Everyday is like an adventure of ‘One Flew Over the Cuckcoo’s Nest.' It is like … literally a psych ward," Scrivano told the reporter. "That’s OK – pooping on the street, peeing on the street, having sex on the street. Making threats without a weapon. That’s OK now."

Fox News LA

 

[steve_bank]

I suppose metaphorically a sign of decliningg civil order is publically defecating on Internet forums.

 

[bilby]

It's almost as though marginalising people and abandoning them to make their way unassisted leaves them with no respect whatsoever for their wealthy and successful neighbours, law, or society.

Obviously, you haven't yet been sufficiently cruel to them to make them want to support the cruelty of your system.

The only imaginable solution is more cruelty. Obviously.

 

[TSwizzle]

I suppose metaphorically a sign of decliningg civil order is publically defecating on Internet forums.

Did you even watch the video? I suspect not.

I would say that leaving mentally ill people to live like this, sleeping in doorways, defecating in the street and throwing their shit around etc. is inhumane. Some parts of Los Angeles (and other cities in California) really are open air psychiatric wards. Some days, driving to my office is like a zombie apocalypse. Drugged up zombies wandering in the middle of busy streets, you have to be careful you don't knock them down.

To be fair to Newsom, he has kicked off a few programs and initiatives recently that are supposed to help these people. We shall see but I am not hopeful the situation is going to improve to any great extent. Newsom is more interested in grandstanding in front of the cameras about 50 migrants/refugees taken on a joy ride to Martha's Vineyard than the plight of the mentally ill here in California.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I suppose metaphorically a sign of decliningg civil order is publically defecating on Internet forums.

Did you even watch the video? I suspect not.

I would say that leaving mentally ill people to live like this, sleeping in doorways, defecating in the street and throwing their shit around etc. is inhumane. Some parts of Los Angeles (and other cities in California) really are open air psychiatric wards. Some days, driving to my office is like a zombie apocalypse. Drugged up zombies wandering in the middle of busy streets, you have to be careful you don't knock them down.

To be fair to Newsom, he has kicked off a few programs and initiatives recently that are supposed to help these people.

One of these days, people like you will learn that you don't "help" these people, these people need assistance for life.

We shall see but I am not hopeful the situation is going to improve to any great extent. Newsom is more interested in grandstanding in front of the cameras about 50 migrants/refugees taken on a joy ride to Martha's Vineyard than the plight of the mentally ill here in California.

Please stop pretending you give a fuck about the mentally ill.

 

[bilby]

I suppose metaphorically a sign of decliningg civil order is publically defecating on Internet forums.

Did you even watch the video? I suspect not.

I would say that leaving mentally ill people to live like this, sleeping in doorways, defecating in the street and throwing their shit around etc. is inhumane. Some parts of Los Angeles (and other cities in California) really are open air psychiatric wards. Some days, driving to my office is like a zombie apocalypse. Drugged up zombies wandering in the middle of busy streets, you have to be careful you don't knock them down.

To be fair to Newsom, he has kicked off a few programs and initiatives recently that are supposed to help these people. We shall see but I am not hopeful the situation is going to improve to any great extent. Newsom is more interested in grandstanding in front of the cameras about 50 migrants/refugees taken on a joy ride to Martha's Vineyard than the plight of the mentally ill here in California.

How much time and effort have you spent lobbying for increased taxes to pay for assistance to the homeless?

How many times have you voted for people who have a platform of doing something effective, rather than punitive?

 

[Jarhyn]

So, I can't help but wonder about the interactions Mr Poopsmear Von Businessman has had with this serial sidewalk shitter.

Someone only has so much shit they can push out their ass. If he's showing up with a bag of it that implies special expended effort to target him.

So... Why?

I can't but wonder why Poopsmear Von Businessman is on the receiving end of this daily dose of dookie.

 

[steve_bank]

I suppose metaphorically a sign of decliningg civil order is publically defecating on Internet forums.

Did you even watch the video? I suspect not.

I would say that leaving mentally ill people to live like this, sleeping in doorways, defecating in the street and throwing their shit around etc. is inhumane. Some parts of Los Angeles (and other cities in California) really are open air psychiatric wards. Some days, driving to my office is like a zombie apocalypse. Drugged up zombies wandering in the middle of busy streets, you have to be careful you don't knock them down.

To be fair to Newsom, he has kicked off a few programs and initiatives recently that are supposed to help these people. We shall see but I am not hopeful the situation is going to improve to any great extent. Newsom is more interested in grandstanding in front of the cameras about 50 migrants/refugees taken on a joy ride to Martha's Vineyard than the plight of the mentally ill here in California.

It is probably acadmic and partisan to you.

To me it is the reality I live in, and everybody in my building. Some will not go outside anymore. Over the last 5 years I have had several confrontations, which defused without getting physical. I suspect if you actually were confronted with a crazy person you would piss in your pants.

Jimmy is right, you dom't 'help' these people. They have adapted to the way they live and know nothing else. It is something the Seattle progressives do not want to publicly admit, many will need care for life. For a number of the homelss the idea that they will receive treatment and transition to a normal life is not practcal. On top of that Wa courts have generally ruled homeless can not be coerced into housing or treatment.

Hotels ar being purchased and tiny home viliages are being built for housing. A tiny home is a small studio built on a pltform with water, electricty, and sewage.

Tiny house villages are a very good idea. However without an on site supervisor they have been seen to degrade into street like conditions. Trash all around and accumulation of junk.

To te OP title of breakdown in civil order the question is what is driving the increase in conditions where peoole end up on the street. A percntage are working peopel who lost housing because they could not afford it here in Seattle, but that does not explan the rest of it.

Drugs are a major driver. Organized crime is part of it, criminals are overcapitalizing on lenience given the homeless. This is not my conclusion, this is local reporting.

What I see is a general breakdown. Young healhy people chose not to work when employers can not find peole willing to work. The increase in grfitti is notable. It is everywhere. Spots on our building are painted over and new graffiti quickly appears.

Increased serious business vandalism. Attacks on police.

Someone in my building while out running pulled two kids off an old Asian woman they were assaulting. Culture has taken a serious trurn for the worse.

 

[TSwizzle]

And in San Diego NBA legend Bill Walton was attacked by "homeless" people;

As we all know, San Diego’s homeless crisis is only getting worse under the leadership of Mayor Todd Gloria, who continues to pretend like he is working to fix the issue. But all his efforts have failed. In downtown San Diego alone, there is a record high 1,609 homeless residents. Back in July 2022, KUSI reported that there was a record number of deaths in our homeless population, and literally nothing has been done. San Diego native Bill Walton is publicly calling out Mayor Todd Gloria’s failure publicly, saying Gloria has “failed us and yourself.” The Voice of San Diego reports that Walton has sent a series of emails to Mayor Gloria’s office, detailing his personal encounters with our homeless population. The Voice of San Diego reported one email to read, “while peacefully riding my bike early this Sunday morning in Balboa Park, I was threatened, chased, and assaulted by the homeless population, in our Park.”

KSU News

Walton posted on his instagram;



There was some improvement in SD when Faulconer was mayor but things have gone noticeably downhill.

It's a shocking state of affairs.

 

[steve_bank]

A 'fart in the dark'.

We can post examples of assaults attributed to homeless till the cows come home.

It is not just the homeless.

Rising income inequality is increasingly making it difficult for more working people to get by.

Historically that is the seed for social and civil breakdown.

Unrestricted free market capitalism is coming to its end, at least as it has been for the last 200 years.

The thretened strike by rail workers would have shut down the economy.