Breakdown In Civil Order

[Derec]

Auto theft by stata law is now treated as a misdemeanor not a felony. Auto tefts rise. Drugs have been decriminalized while drug problems increase.

Car theft a misdemeanor? That's insane.

 

[Derec]

Oh, no! Not the system working as intended to protect innocent people from being punished for a crime on the mere suspicion of the police! What is the world coming to!

No, the system is working to release people who should not be released. Releasing people for no bail for felony theft is crazy. And California laws also allow people commit crimes over and over again and get released each time. Like in NY (grazie Cuomo!)

I blame the [American Civil Liberties Union]. I think they sold everybody a bag of goods with this zero bail policy as we see. Our chief came out yesterday and said that 14 of these people that were arrested did not stay in jail. They got released and some of them were arrested and out on release from a prior smash and grab robbery

From here.

Presumption of innocence, until convicted by a court of law, is a fundamental element of the legal system in a free country. That's practically the defining freedom; Without it, a police officer can wield absolute power over anybody for any reason or none.

Presumption of innocence is a good thing, but this is taking it too far. Letting people out for felony crimes without even requiring bail is not a good policy. Neither is catch and release upon rearrest for a new crime. Cities like NYC, LA and SF have become playgrounds for criminals.

Calling for suspects not to be released, even on bail, is a call for totalitarianism, and a direct attack on freedom.

Some suspects should be held without bail. Especially when dangerous and/or they continue to commit crimes while out on bail.

 

[bilby]

Oh, no! Not the system working as intended to protect innocent people from being punished for a crime on the mere suspicion of the police! What is the world coming to!

No, the system is working to release people who should not be released. Releasing people for no bail for felony theft is crazy. And California laws also allow people commit crimes over and over again and get released each time. Like in NY (grazie Cuomo!)

I blame the [American Civil Liberties Union]. I think they sold everybody a bag of goods with this zero bail policy as we see. Our chief came out yesterday and said that 14 of these people that were arrested did not stay in jail. They got released and some of them were arrested and out on release from a prior smash and grab robbery

From here.

Presumption of innocence, until convicted by a court of law, is a fundamental element of the legal system in a free country. That's practically the defining freedom; Without it, a police officer can wield absolute power over anybody for any reason or none.

Presumption of innocence is a good thing, but this is taking it too far. Letting people out for felony crimes without even requiring bail is not a good policy. Neither is catch and release upon rearrest for a new crime. Cities like NYC, LA and SF have become playgrounds for criminals.

Calling for suspects not to be released, even on bail, is a call for totalitarianism, and a direct attack on freedom.

Some suspects should be held without bail. Especially when dangerous and/or they continue to commit crimes while out on bail.

Yes, some should, and they are.

Shoplifters?

Fuck that. Freedom might be unimportant to you, but I think it's a pretty good thing.

 

[lpetrich]

Parents of Michigan school shooting suspect face charges : NPR

Jennifer and James Crumbley, the parents of the 15-year-old accused of murdering four students at a high school in Michigan, have been charged with four counts each of involuntary manslaughter — an exceptionally rare move the prosecutor said was warranted by laying out a timeline of "egregious" mistakes and missed opportunities to prevent the shooting.

The parents of Ethan Crumbley purchased the handgun used in Tuesday's shooting at Oxford High School, apparently as a Christmas gift for their son on Black Friday, and stored it improperly, said Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald at a news conference midday Friday.

Then, when called to a meeting Tuesday morning by school officials to discuss a disturbing, violent drawing made by their son, the parents did not inquire about the whereabouts of the gun or inform the school that they had recently purchased a gun for him, said McDonald.

After the meeting, the younger Crumbley was allowed to return to class. Shortly afterward, authorities say, he fatally shot four fellow students and wounded six others and a teacher.

In effect, criminal negligence.

If convicted, Jennifer and James Crumbley face up to 15 years in prison for each count. Ethan Crumbley has been charged with 24 felonies, including four counts of murder and one count of terrorism. The younger Crumbley was arrested after the shooting Tuesday. At the time of Friday's news conference, his parents were not yet in custody.

 

[Derec]

Yes, some should, and they are.

They evidently are not in fauxgressive states like NY and CA, and within CA especially cities like LA and SF.

Another article about the "catch and release" policies in LA:
Arrested 4 times in 3 weeks: L.A. police blame zero bail for rise in repeat offenders

Eric Medina has been arrested four times on suspicion of grand theft auto in the last three weeks.
It began with the theft of a Ford van April 9, authorities said. Within a day, he was back on the streets, helped by California’s statewide zero-bail policy for lesser offenders fueled by the coronavirus outbreak.
Five days later, officers apprehended him with a stolen Toyota truck, officials allege. Again he went to jail, only to be freed without bail. Police say he stole another Toyota truck on April 20. And then last weekend, Medina was arrested yet again in a stolen 2009 Ford Focus.

People keep committing crimes and they keep getting released, often with no bail at all.

Shoplifters?

These were not mere shoplifters. These were a) robberies, as they used force and b) organized.

Fuck that. Freedom might be unimportant to you, but I think it's a pretty good thing.

Freedom of robbers is pretty unimportant to me, correct.

 

[bilby]

Yes, some should, and they are.

They evidently are not in fauxgressive states like NY and CA, and within CA especially cities like LA and SF.

Another article about the "catch and release" policies in LA:
Arrested 4 times in 3 weeks: L.A. police blame zero bail for rise in repeat offenders

Eric Medina has been arrested four times on suspicion of grand theft auto in the last three weeks.
It began with the theft of a Ford van April 9, authorities said. Within a day, he was back on the streets, helped by California’s statewide zero-bail policy for lesser offenders fueled by the coronavirus outbreak.
Five days later, officers apprehended him with a stolen Toyota truck, officials allege. Again he went to jail, only to be freed without bail. Police say he stole another Toyota truck on April 20. And then last weekend, Medina was arrested yet again in a stolen 2009 Ford Focus.

People keep committing crimes and they keep getting released, often with no bail at all.

Shoplifters?

These were not mere shoplifters. These were a) robberies, as they used force and b) organized.

Fuck that. Freedom might be unimportant to you, but I think it's a pretty good thing.

Freedom of robbers is pretty unimportant to me, correct.

Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all.

 

[Politesse]

Yes, some should, and they are.

They evidently are not in fauxgressive states like NY and CA, and within CA especially cities like LA and SF.

Another article about the "catch and release" policies in LA:
Arrested 4 times in 3 weeks: L.A. police blame zero bail for rise in repeat offenders

Eric Medina has been arrested four times on suspicion of grand theft auto in the last three weeks.
It began with the theft of a Ford van April 9, authorities said. Within a day, he was back on the streets, helped by California’s statewide zero-bail policy for lesser offenders fueled by the coronavirus outbreak.
Five days later, officers apprehended him with a stolen Toyota truck, officials allege. Again he went to jail, only to be freed without bail. Police say he stole another Toyota truck on April 20. And then last weekend, Medina was arrested yet again in a stolen 2009 Ford Focus.

So do you believe that if Mr Medina had had to post bail, he would have given up his life of crime?

Or how do you explain the claim that the policy increases the total number of repeat offenders?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Yes, some should, and they are.

They evidently are not in fauxgressive states like NY and CA, and within CA especially cities like LA and SF.

Another article about the "catch and release" policies in LA:
Arrested 4 times in 3 weeks: L.A. police blame zero bail for rise in repeat offenders

Eric Medina has been arrested four times on suspicion of grand theft auto in the last three weeks.
It began with the theft of a Ford van April 9, authorities said. Within a day, he was back on the streets, helped by California’s statewide zero-bail policy for lesser offenders fueled by the coronavirus outbreak.
Five days later, officers apprehended him with a stolen Toyota truck, officials allege. Again he went to jail, only to be freed without bail. Police say he stole another Toyota truck on April 20. And then last weekend, Medina was arrested yet again in a stolen 2009 Ford Focus.

So do you believe that if Mr Medina had had to post bail, he would have given up his life of crime?

Or how do you explain the claim that the policy increases the total number of repeat offenders?

I think the point is not to release someone over and over particularly if accused of the exact same crime.
Bottom line is the optics are terrible. If politicians want to keep their jobs, they’ll make the necessary changes. People read these stories or worse, read the first couple paragraphs of these stories or worse still, just hear the headlines and and they get scared. Scared for themselves. Scared for their families. See, even liberals want to feel safe in their own communities. Well, maybe the well-heeled ones in gated communities can hold out a little longer. But when we have to go to Santa Monica Place, we have to go to Santa Monica Place, don’t we?

 

[Jarhyn]

Yes, some should, and they are.

They evidently are not in fauxgressive states like NY and CA, and within CA especially cities like LA and SF.

Another article about the "catch and release" policies in LA:
Arrested 4 times in 3 weeks: L.A. police blame zero bail for rise in repeat offenders

Eric Medina has been arrested four times on suspicion of grand theft auto in the last three weeks.
It began with the theft of a Ford van April 9, authorities said. Within a day, he was back on the streets, helped by California’s statewide zero-bail policy for lesser offenders fueled by the coronavirus outbreak.
Five days later, officers apprehended him with a stolen Toyota truck, officials allege. Again he went to jail, only to be freed without bail. Police say he stole another Toyota truck on April 20. And then last weekend, Medina was arrested yet again in a stolen 2009 Ford Focus.

So do you believe that if Mr Medina had had to post bail, he would have given up his life of crime?

Or how do you explain the claim that the policy increases the total number of repeat offenders?

I think the point is not to release someone over and over particularly if accused of the exact same crime.
Bottom line is the optics are terrible. If politicians want to keep their jobs, they’ll make the necessary changes. People read these stories or worse, read the first couple paragraphs of these stories or worse still, just hear the headlines and and they get scared. Scared for themselves. Scared for their families. See, even liberals want to feel safe in their own communities. Well, maybe the well-heeled ones in gated communities can hold out a little longer. But when we have to go to Santa Monica Place, we have to go to Santa Monica Place, don’t we?

I think the point is not to release someone over and over particularly if accused of the exact same crime.

Bottom line is the optics are terrible. If police want to keep their jobs, they’ll make the necessary changes. People read these stories or worse, read the first couple paragraphs of these stories or worse still, just hear the headlines and and they get scared. Scared for themselves. Scared for their families. See, black people want to feel safe in their own communities.

Maybe we should start charging killer cops FIRST.

 

[Politesse]

Ah, "optics". The real issue.

 

[Politesse]

How this will end:

Members of Bay Area retail theft ring that stole millions plead guilty

Retail theft ring members moved millions in merchandise stolen across the Bay Area. Their purported leader is expected to get six years in prison.

www.latimes.com

The police aren't guilty of not solving crimes, and the legal system isn't guilty of not prosecuting them. What they are damned for is not keeping pace with the 24 hour news cycle and its tireless culture of outraged hot takes. "Optics", not effectiveness.

 

[Derec]

So do you believe that if Mr Medina had had to post bail, he would have given up his life of crime?

It certainly would have been more of a deterrent if he had to post bail vs. just being released. No bail sends a message tat that the system does not treat grand theft as a serious crime.
Also, if you commit another crime while out on bail, being remanded to custody should be a real option or else the bail should be much steeper than the first time around: frequent flyer bonus.
Third time's the charm? Remand should be the default, and his lawyer should come up with some damn good reasons why he should be granted bail.
Instead we get repeat offenders being released on bail over and over again. No wonder they do not treat the system seriously, when it has become a laughingstock!

Or how do you explain the claim that the policy increases the total number of repeat offenders?

They do not perceive their actions to have any consequences, so they do it again. No consequences again? So they do it the third time.
Not exactly rocket surgery, but evidently well beyond the cognitive abilities of California politicians and judges.

 

[bilby]

So do you believe that if Mr Medina had had to post bail, he would have given up his life of crime?

It certainly would have been more of a deterrent if he had to post bail vs. just being released. No bail sends a message tat that the system does not treat grand theft as a serious crime.
Also, if you commit another crime while out on bail, being remanded to custody should be a real option or else the bail should be much steeper than the first time around: frequent flyer bonus.
Third time's the charm? Remand should be the default, and his lawyer should come up with some damn good reasons why he should be granted bail.
Instead we get repeat offenders being released on bail over and over again.

Nope.

By definition, a person who is suspected of a crime while on bail is not a repeat offender, because they have yet to be convicted of the offense for which they were bailed.

Suspects are innocent until proven guilty.

That's a fundamental principle in a free country; You cannot claim to support freedom if you take the position that the law should treat someone more harshly due to a crime for which they have not been convicted.

No wonder they do not treat the system seriously, when it has become a laughingstock!

The system hasn't become a laughing stock; Rather, as usual, authoritarian madmen in the media have invited you to become outraged at changes they completely fabricated, and you have swallowed their bait unquestioningly, and are now calling for a move towards an authoritarian police state.

Fuck that.

Or how do you explain the claim that the policy increases the total number of repeat offenders?

They do not perceive their actions to have any consequences, so they do it again. No consequences again? So they do it the third time.
Not exactly rocket surgery, but evidently well beyond the cognitive abilities of California politicians and judges.

Criminals don't care about consequences, because they expect to get away with their crimes.

That was true even when people were hanged for petty theft; The severity of the punishment did bugger all to reduce crime, because the criminals didn't contemplate possible detection, much less punishment, before acting.

The entire history of criminology shows that harsh punishments do nothing to reduce the incidence or severity of crime; The uninformed opinions of right-wing media buffoons do not constitute a rebuttal of this fact.

 

[Derec]

How this will end:

Given that this is California, they will likely be out within a year or two.

The police aren't guilty of not solving crimes, and the legal system isn't guilty of not prosecuting them. What they are damned for is not keeping pace with the 24 hour news cycle and its tireless culture of outraged hot takes. "Optics", not effectiveness.

Often, the prosecutors are refusing to prosecute. Look at 2020 #BLM and Antifa rioters. Most were never prosecuted, and of those who were, most were prosecuted federally. The fauxgressive DAs in lefty cities like Portland, Minneapolis, NYC or Seattle - cities that saw most of the destruction - preferred to look the other way most of the time.

And even when prosecutors prosecute, they are always liable to get out early. Overcrowding is a popular excuse, especially in California. Then you have overly eager parole boards, that give us cases like this one:

Gang member fatally stabs Columbia U. teaching assistant, knifes second victim before arrest in Central Park: NYPD

Ex-con Vincent Pinkney, on parole for a Queens gang assault conviction and owner of a long rap sheet, cried out in delight after the second Thursday night stabbing of man walking along Columbus Ave. near W. 110th St., a witness told the Daily News. Police sources indicated the blood-thirsty attacker, arrested in Central Park after he was identified by the dog-walking couple, belonged to the Queens-based EBK gang, an acronym for “Everybody Killas.”
[...]
Pinkney, 25, of Manhattan, was previously arrested 16 times, including multiple charges of robbery and assault, according to law enforcement sources. He was out on parole for the Queens gang assault conviction that landed him behind bars for four years.
The victim in the 2013 beatdown was attacked by Pinkney and four other men, and he needed 25 stitches to close a cut on the face and another 20 staples for a gash to his head.

We need to remove nonsensical crimes from law books (marijuana, sex work being prime examples) but then really go after real crimes like thefts, robberies, assaults, murders etc.

 

[Derec]

Parents of Michigan school shooting suspect face charges : NPR

There is already a dedicated thread on this case. No need to post this here.

 

[Derec]

Nope.

By definition, a person who is suspected of a crime while on bail is not a repeat offender, because they have yet to be convicted of the offense for which they were bailed.

To quote one bilby, "nope". And to paraphrase Justice Robert H. Jackson, the Bill of Rights is not a suicide pact.

A society should be able to defend itself against criminals. That includes requiring bail and remanding suspects to custody when appropriate. Own recognizance release should be limited to minor misdemeanors and even then for first offense only. And flagrant abusers of the bond system - as Medina certainly is - need to be in jail pending trial.

Suspects are innocent until proven guilty.

True, but pretrial detention does not violate that principle.

That's a fundamental principle in a free country; You cannot claim to support freedom if you take the position that the law should treat someone more harshly due to a crime for which they have not been convicted.

Do you guys not have pretrial detention down under? Here it is not a novel concept and it is not necessarily violating principles of a free society. A society cannot be free when people like Medina can steal cars, get arrested, and get released right away only to steal cars again and again. There must be a balance.

The system hasn't become a laughing stock; Rather, as usual, authoritarian madmen in the media have invited you to become outraged at changes they completely fabricated, and you have swallowed their bait unquestioningly, and are now calling for a move towards an authoritarian police state.

The changes in bail laws and practices in places like CA, WA or NY pushed by so-called progressives are not "fabricated". They are real And they have real consequences.
And I am not an authoritarian, but at the same time, stealing cars should not be an "own recognizance" offense. Again, there must be a balance. Some people should be in jail pending trial. Medina is one of them. That does not mean there is no place for criminal and bail reform. It just means that it should not be kneejerk release of people who flaunt the system.

Fuck that.

My sentiments exactly!

Criminals don't care about consequences, because they expect to get away with their crimes.

And being released with no bail after you've stolen your fourth car is merely reinforcing that expectation.

The entire history of criminology shows that harsh punishments do nothing to reduce the incidence or severity of crime;

If you really believe that lack of real consequences is not an encouragement to steal stuff etc., then I have some oceanfront property in Reno to sell you.

The uninformed opinions of right-wing media buffoons do not constitute a rebuttal of this fact.

So your brilliant solution is slaps on the wrist (at the very most!) for stealing cars or robbing stores?

 

[ZiprHead]

Hundreds report abnormal menstruation after being teargassed during Portland protests

More than 1,000 report cramping, increased bleeding and other health issues, challenging claims teargas has minor impact

www.theguardian.com

More than a thousand people reported lasting health effects after being exposed to teargas during protests in Portland, Oregon, last summer, according to a newly published scientific study.

Nearly 900 people reported abnormal menstrual cycles, including intense cramping and increased bleeding, that began or persisted days after their initial exposure to the teargas. Hundreds of others complained of other negative health impacts, including severe headaches, nausea, diarrhea, and mental health concerns.

The new research, based on an online survey of more than 2,200 people, challenges claims that the health consequences of being teargassed are minor and temporary, said Dr Britta Torgrimson-Ojerio, a researcher at Kaiser Permanente Northwest and the lead author of the study.



Teargas used on Portland protesters risks ‘grave health hazards’, says lawsuit
Read more
It is also the first published, peer-reviewed study to confirm a link between teargas and abnormal menstruation, a connection that was widely discussed by American protesters on social media and in news reports last year.

Participants in racial justice protests against police violence last summer in Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis, Rochester and other cities told media outlets that their exposure to teargas had been followed by unexpected bleeding, unusually painful cramps, and other disruptions of their typical menstrual cycles.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

if you have money, property, wealth, possessions, whatever... you don't have it because you earned it. you only have it because everyone else decided to let you have it.

there is a cabal of political and economic fascists in america who evidently are completely unaware of the existence of the french revolution.
if you shit on the lower class long enough, eventually the lower class will have a "let's chop everyone's heads off" parade.

Like they chopped off the heads of Robespierre and other social revolutionary leaders who promoted universal suffrage and abolition of slavery and privilege. And like they chopped off the head of socialist agitator Gracchus Babeuf, who championed for the poor and against private property and the rich and powerful. And also today's populist lower-class Revolution will resume this parade of crushing the Leftist social reformers and liberals and democratic leaders.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hundreds report abnormal menstruation after being teargassed during Portland protests

More than 1,000 report cramping, increased bleeding and other health issues, challenging claims teargas has minor impact

www.theguardian.com

More than a thousand people reported lasting health effects after being exposed to teargas during protests in Portland, Oregon, last summer, according to a newly published scientific study.

Nearly 900 people reported abnormal menstrual cycles, including intense cramping and increased bleeding, that began or persisted days after their initial exposure to the teargas. Hundreds of others complained of other negative health impacts, including severe headaches, nausea, diarrhea, and mental health concerns.

Duh! Know what else messes with menstural periods? Stress. Think getting tear gassed isn't stressful?

 

[TSwizzle]

12 Major US cities shatter their homicide records;

Philadelphia has shattered its 30-year-old record for annual murders, surpassing the much larger cities of New York and Los Angeles as a dozen major cities post all-time records for homicides -- all of them with Democratic mayors. As of December 6, Philadelphia had recorded 521 homicides for the year, surpassing New York's 443 and Los Angeles at 352. This is despite the fact that with a population of 1.5 million, the City of Brotherly Love is less than half the size of Los Angeles and one-fifth of New York.

DailyMail

Just a coincidence I'm sure;