Breakdown In Civil Order

[Swammerdami]

It seems that Valjean's stealing of a loaf of break is on-topic here,

but the billions stolen by Bernie Madoff, or the billions in pollution by Koch Industries are not.

Those would be separate topics.
By the way, Madoff was prosecuted, convicted and received what amounted to a life sentence without parole. Compare that with murderous terrorists like Kathy Boudin or David Gilbert who were released prematurely because of political meddling.
And what particular alleged illegal actions by Koch Industries do you have in mind?

Do your own Googling. Or just bookmark the last Koch expose URL I posted. I'll lead a horse to a URL once, but I can't make you click, or understand an article even if you do click.

Better yet, approach these discussions with a sincere effort to learn. Instead your exchanges are tit-for-tat sentences of highly variable quality.

Bernie Madoff swindled his clients out of somewhere between $11 billion and $50 billion, depending on definitions.

Again your obsession with Madoff. He got severely punished, far more harshly than say the terrorist BLA/WU bank robbers who murdered three people in the process.

Victims also included many charities, pension funds and universities.

Caveat investor.

Uhhhh. "Caveat car-owner? ? Do you really think your flippant non sequiturs add to your credibility?

And you seem obsessed with calling me obsessed about certain people? YOU are the one who rattles of long lists of the names of car thieves, blacks who reached for their cell-phone, etc.

Some ignorant right-wingers will say that Madoff's prison sentence proves that white-collar crime IS prosecuted, but Madoff wasn't arrested until he spontaneously confessed,

He "spontaneously confessed? So nobody was suspecting him, and he just confessed? [citation needed] on that.

Oh my. Start with Wikipedia. Follow its links as necessary. IF you make a sincere effort — show your work — and still have trouble finding facts, THEN appeal for help here.

If your "point" is that falling stock prices made Madoff's house of cards very vulnerable, so he confessed early to keep his sons out of the Big House, then ... congrats Captain Obvious!

And the "nobody was suspecting him" shows that you have severe attention deficit. In the very piece you're quoting I mentioned that people had reported their suspicions to enforcement authorities several YEARS earlier!

Just today we see that JPMorgan confessed to crimes in one simple matter and agreed to a $200 million fine.

When did he confess? He died in 1913.

I'd like to believe you're joking and know that J.P. Morgan and JPMorgan are different entities. But by now it's hard to guess what you "know"
In any event this rejoinder is a good example of your tit-for-tat approach to learning (or "teaching" or whatever you think you're doing).

 

[lpetrich]

Alec Karakatsanis on Twitter: "UPDATED THREAD: In 2021, we heard a lot about how police and prisons need more cash because "crime is surging." It's copaganda. I’ve made a new thread of threads with resources to help understand the issue and respond." / Twitter

How Do the Police Actually Spend Their Time? - The New York Times - "A review of publicly available data in three areas reveals that much of an officer’s job revolves around handling routine calls rather than violent crime."

That could be relevant to the new conversations about the role of law enforcement that have arisen since the death of George Floyd in police custody and the nationwide protests that followed. For instance, there has been talk of “unbundling” the police — redirecting some of their duties, as well as some of their funding, by hiring more of other kinds of workers to help with the homeless or the mentally ill, drug overdoses, minor traffic problems and similar disturbances.

Consider “calls for service.” These can be defined as calls to emergency operators, 911, alarms, police radio and nonemergency calls. They mostly begin from calls by citizens, but also include incidents police officers initiate themselves.

Calls for service do not include time spent investigating after an incident; training sessions; administrative duties; and off-duty employment. As such, they are not a perfect encapsulation of how police officers spend all their time, but they do provide a good representation of how police departments interact with the public.

Determining what constitutes a violent crime can be tricky because some agencies don’t differentiate between aggravated assaults (generally considered a violent crime) and simple assaults (an assault without an injury that is generally not considered a violent crime) in their publicly available calls for service data.

How to Lie with Rape Statistics: America’s Hidden Rape Crisis - Iowa Law Review - The University of Iowa College of Law

In a case of life imitating art, just a year after The Wire ended, a reporter from The Baltimore Sun exposed the Baltimore Police Department’s practice of substantially undercounting reported rapes in the data it submitted to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (“FBI”) as part of the Uniform Crime Report (“UCR”) program. The FBI collects data from nearly every police department across the country to create the annual UCR, which has long served as the primary resource used by policymakers, media, and law enforcement for assessing the prevalence and rate of crime in the United States. From 1995 until 2009, the Baltimore Police Department provided UCR numbers that indicated that the rate of rape had declined by a remarkable 74% in the city. The investigation by The Baltimore Sun ultimately demonstrated that the incredible reported reduction in rape was the product of police providing inaccurate crime statistics creating the illusion of success in fighting crime.

Unfortunately, the Baltimore Police Department is not alone in producing defective UCR rape statistics during the past two decades. Media investigations also caught police in New Orleans, Philadelphia, and St. Louis “red-handed” submitting crime statistics that substantially undercounted the number of rapes in their respective jurisdictions.

Then describing ways that police departments undercount rapes. Not only in these four cities but in many others.

In contrast to the widely held conventional wisdom, the rate of rape in America has not decreased over the last twenty years, as has been the case for other violent crimes. Instead, America is in a crisis of sexual violence that has gone undetected because police departments across the country systemically underreport rape.

The widespread police practice of underreporting rapes also creates significant moral and policy problems. Police often aggressively interrogate and harass rape victims—pressing them to recant their allegations. In other cases, police assure victims that they are busy working on their cases when no actual investigation occurs because the complaint is already labeled “unfounded.” That police revictimize, by harassing or lying to, rape victims is unconscionable. Further, undercounting results in police failing to fully investigate rape complaints leaving serial rapists, who one study indicates commit an estimated 91% to 95% of all rapes, free to rape, and sometimes murder, more victims.

 

[lpetrich]

Custodial Sanctions and Reoffending: A Meta-Analytic Review | Crime and Justice

Beginning in the 1970s, the United States began an experiment in mass imprisonment. Supporters argued that harsh punishments such as imprisonment reduce crime by deterring inmates from reoffending. Skeptics argued that imprisonment may have a criminogenic effect. The skeptics were right. Previous narrative reviews and meta-analyses concluded that the overall effect of imprisonment is null. Based on a much larger meta-analysis of 116 studies, the current analysis shows that custodial sanctions have no effect on reoffending or slightly increase it when compared with the effects of noncustodial sanctions such as probation. This finding is robust regardless of variations in methodological rigor, types of sanctions examined, and sociodemographic characteristics of samples. All sophisticated assessments of the research have independently reached the same conclusion. The null effect of custodial compared with noncustodial sanctions is considered a “criminological fact.” Incarceration cannot be justified on the grounds it affords public safety by decreasing recidivism. Prisons are unlikely to reduce reoffending unless they can be transformed into people-changing institutions on the basis of available evidence on what works organizationally to reform offenders.

I think that we need to use alternative punishments for minor offenses, like keeping shoplifters out of stores and fare-beaters out of transit systems. I think that facial-recognition technology could be good on that, though one has to be careful to avoid letting it be racially discriminatory.

We should also stop drug warring. One should recognize what heroic entrepreneurs drug dealers are and stop hating on them.

I was trying to phrase opposition to drug warring in terms that the Right would understand.

Why “Crime” Isn’t the Question and Police Aren’t the Answer ❧ Current Affairs
I would not go as far as he does. We need some police forces, even if cops aren't the best people for handling many sorts of misconduct.

The Yale Law Journal - Forum: The Punishment Bureaucracy: How to Think About “Criminal Justice Reform” - another self-interested lobby?

AK also mentioned Big Banks Charged Billions in Overdraft Fees During the Worst Months of the Pandemic - The American Prospect - "Recent financial disclosures show overdraft to be lucrative for commercial banks, and a burden on their most vulnerable customers."

 

[Harry Bosch]

Custodial Sanctions and Reoffending: A Meta-Analytic Review | Crime and Justice

Beginning in the 1970s, the United States began an experiment in mass imprisonment. Supporters argued that harsh punishments such as imprisonment reduce crime by deterring inmates from reoffending. Skeptics argued that imprisonment may have a criminogenic effect. The skeptics were right. Previous narrative reviews and meta-analyses concluded that the overall effect of imprisonment is null. Based on a much larger meta-analysis of 116 studies, the current analysis shows that custodial sanctions have no effect on reoffending or slightly increase it when compared with the effects of noncustodial sanctions such as probation. This finding is robust regardless of variations in methodological rigor, types of sanctions examined, and sociodemographic characteristics of samples. All sophisticated assessments of the research have independently reached the same conclusion. The null effect of custodial compared with noncustodial sanctions is considered a “criminological fact.” Incarceration cannot be justified on the grounds it affords public safety by decreasing recidivism. Prisons are unlikely to reduce reoffending unless they can be transformed into people-changing institutions on the basis of available evidence on what works organizationally to reform offenders.

I think that we need to use alternative punishments for minor offenses, like keeping shoplifters out of stores and fare-beaters out of transit systems. I think that facial-recognition technology could be good on that, though one has to be careful to avoid letting it be racially discriminatory.

We should also stop drug warring. One should recognize what heroic entrepreneurs drug dealers are and stop hating on them.

I was trying to phrase opposition to drug warring in terms that the Right would understand.

Why “Crime” Isn’t the Question and Police Aren’t the Answer ❧ Current Affairs
I would not go as far as he does. We need some police forces, even if cops aren't the best people for handling many sorts of misconduct.

The Yale Law Journal - Forum: The Punishment Bureaucracy: How to Think About “Criminal Justice Reform” - another self-interested lobby?

AK also mentioned Big Banks Charged Billions in Overdraft Fees During the Worst Months of the Pandemic - The American Prospect - "Recent financial disclosures show overdraft to be lucrative for commercial banks, and a burden on their most vulnerable customers."

I'm against the war on drugs. It just isn't working. However, to call drug dealers heroic is wrong. They spread misery wherever they go. Spend a few days in a poor area and you'll see what I mean. I used to volunteer at a foster care center at my reservation. The vast majority of poverty and abuse was caused by parents on drugs. Nothing is sadder than an able bodied parent hooked on drugs with little kids to feed and care for.

 

[lpetrich]

I should have been clearer about why I called drug dealers "heroic". I was implying that those who like to do hero worship of entrepreneurs may want to think that drug dealers are also worthy of such hero worship.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I should have been clearer about why I called drug dealers "heroic". I was implying that those who like to do hero worship of entrepreneurs may want to think that drug dealers are also worthy of such hero worship.

How so? Entrepreneurs offer a service/product that is needed by the community, follow the law, create jobs, support the local community, and pay taxes. Drug dealers steal from the poor and spread misery and dependence everywhere they go.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Then describing ways that police departments undercount rapes. Not only in these four cities but in many others.

Note that the same forces would apply to other violent crimes short of murder (it's hard to undercount deaths.) Yet:

In contrast to the widely held conventional wisdom, the rate of rape in America has not decreased over the last twenty years, as has been the case for other violent crimes. Instead, America is in a crisis of sexual violence that has gone undetected because police departments across the country systemically underreport rape.

Why does the incentive towards downgrading crimes apply only to rape??

And why do we see the same drop in rape elsewhere associated with widespread access to pornography? Do the police start undercounting rape as porn becomes available??

 

[Derec]

Thieves in LA are looting freight trains filled with packages from UPS, FedEx and Amazon

This is what happens when fauxgressive prosecutors refuse to prosecute certain crimes, such as most thefts.

 

[Politesse]

Thieves in LA are looting freight trains filled with packages from UPS, FedEx and Amazon

This is what happens when fauxgressive prosecutors refuse to prosecute certain crimes, such as most thefts.

What prosecutor refused to prosecute a train robbery?

 

[Derec]

What prosecutor refused to prosecute a train robbery?

Garcon. The lefty DA of LA.

The new Manhattan DA is about to do similar things.

 

[Politesse]

What prosecutor refused to prosecute a train robbery?

Garcon. The lefty DA of LA.

Citation?

 

[bilby]

Thieves in LA are looting freight trains filled with packages from UPS, FedEx and Amazon

This is what happens when fauxgressive prosecutors refuse to prosecute certain crimes, such as most thefts.

What prosecutor refused to prosecute a train robbery?

Good question.

I would also ask when train robbery became a new thing; Or whether the great train robberies of the past were perhaps due to time travelers inspired by today's laws and lawmakers.

 

[Derec]

I would also ask when train robbery became a new thing; Or whether the great train robberies of the past were perhaps due to time travelers inspired by today's laws and lawmakers.

So just because crime has always existed, we are to ignore the effect lack of prosecutions of many crimes has on emboldening criminals?

I do not know how it works in Australia, but here there is a trend of so-called "progressive" DAs declaring they would not prosecute certain crimes or will downgrade felonies (like robbery) to misdemeanors (like petit larceny). Garcon in LA, Boudin in SF and others have been at it for years, and now the new DA of Manhattan has released a similar pro-crime plan.

 

[bilby]

So just because crime has always existed, we are to ignore the effect lack of prosecutions of many crimes has on emboldening criminals?

Woah there!

You haven't established that any such thing is happening; You just boldly asserted it as a non-sequitur response to a reported crime.

There's no lack of prosecution of serious crimes (such as train robbery); So by what mechanism do you imagine that these train robbers were emboldened; And more importantly, what non-imaginary evidence do you have that this is the case?

I am not ignoring any effects; I am pointing out that you have totally failed to establish any cause and effect relationship between the events you reported and the actions you claimed to be their causes.

 

[Politesse]

I would also ask when train robbery became a new thing; Or whether the great train robberies of the past were perhaps due to time travelers inspired by today's laws and lawmakers.

So just because crime has always existed, we are to ignore the effect lack of prosecutions of many crimes has on emboldening criminals?

I do not know how it works in Australia, but here there is a trend of so-called "progressive" DAs declaring they would not prosecute certain crimes or will downgrade felonies (like robbery) to misdemeanors (like petit larceny). Garcon in LA, Boudin in SF and others have been at it for years, and now the new DA of Manhattan has released a similar pro-crime plan.

When has your DA excused train robbery?

 

[Derec]

Citation?

Here it is for juveniles.
Juveniles can avoid jail for robbery, burglary, arson under new policies by DA Gascon

So if you are 16 or 17, you can get away with robbery, burglary and slew of other crimes.

 

[Politesse]

So if you are 16 or 17, you can get away with robbery, burglary and slew of other crimes.

You said that the DA refused to prosecute train robberies, not that there was a discretionary program to divert sentencing for minors who have committed less serious crimes.

Were the train robbers minors?

 

[Derec]

You said that the DA refused to prosecute train robberies, not that there was a discretionary program to divert sentencing for minors who have committed less serious crimes.

Robbery, burglary and arson are not "less serious crimes".

Were the train robbers minors?

I am sure many of them are. As to the rest, the DAs policy shows that he is not taking these crimes seriously in general.

And diversionary programs means there is no prosecution. Result - more such crimes.
Also, just because there is no official program to not prosecute robberies, does not mean he doesn't downgrade them to thefts like the Manhattan DA wants to do. Again, the result is more robberies.

If Garcon is so willing to prosecute these robberies, where is the evidence of him actually prosecuting them? The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The proof of the DA is in prosecuting crimes and putting perps behind bars.

All we see is an increase in criminal activity and DAs like Garcon bullshitting about how we should not prosecute many crimes because of how they affect the perpetrators.

 

[Derec]

You haven't established that any such thing is happening; You just boldly asserted it as a non-sequitur response to a reported crime.

You missed the part where the victims of the robbery implored Gascon to get off his high horse and do his job for a change.

There's no lack of prosecution of serious crimes

[citation needed]
Here is a counterexample:
Police commission: US Attorney held F-13 gang members responsible when Gascón wouldn't

"Our local District Attorney George Gascón should be prosecuting these murderers to the fullest extent of the law," said LAPPL President Craig Lally. "Gascón simply doesn’t have the courage or conviction to hold soulless murdering thugs accountable."

I am not ignoring any effects; I am pointing out that you have totally failed to establish any cause and effect relationship between the events you reported and the actions you claimed to be their causes.

We have a DA with an official policy of not prosecuting many crimes, including crimes such as robbery for perps under 18. What makes you think somebody with that attitude is eager to prosecute any robberies?

 

[fromderinside]

You haven't established that any such thing is happening; You just boldly asserted it as a non-sequitur response to a reported crime.

You missed the part where the victims of the robbery implored Gascon to get off his high horse and do his job for a change.

There's no lack of prosecution of serious crimes

[citation needed]
Here is a counterexample:
Police commission: US Attorney held F-13 gang members responsible when Gascón wouldn't

"Our local District Attorney George Gascón should be prosecuting these murderers to the fullest extent of the law," said LAPPL President Craig Lally. "Gascón simply doesn’t have the courage or conviction to hold soulless murdering thugs accountable."

I am not ignoring any effects; I am pointing out that you have totally failed to establish any cause and effect relationship between the events you reported and the actions you claimed to be their causes.

We have a DA with an official policy of not prosecuting many crimes, including crimes such as robbery for perps under 18. What makes you think somebody with that attitude is eager to prosecute any robberies?

Justification by generalizing is just about as good as going to church and lighting a candle.