Split Conservatives Feel Attacked (was Special Counsel 2)

[Toni]

What a lot of conservatives feel is attacked. They heavily feel the contempt that oozes from liberal talking points and tv shows that are so so cool and totally not within the ability of rubes to understand. They feel that their religious faith is under attack, that their way of life: farming, factory work, skilled or unskilled labor is looked down upon. That they are regarded as stupid and uninformed by those who went to college

I don't buy these JD Vance style sob stories. Rural conservatives shit on godless coastal liberal gay degenerate city slickers just as much if not more than the other way around, and somehow the godless coastal liberals manage not to become fascists.

Blaming the left/center for the right's turn toward fascism has got a strong "see what you made me do" quality to it.

Funny because at least one gay man from a small town in a very red midwestern state posts here on this very forum.

Here he is agreeing with me that right-wing rhetoric is far worse:

Split - Conservatives Feel Attacked (was Special Counsel 2)

But what I hear from a lot of my fellow liberals is a lot of unstated fuck your feelings and we college educated people know what’s best for YOU. Wrapped up in a lot of politically correct verbiage, of course. If you think liberals are mean, wait until you hear about what right-wingers say...

iidb.org

Pointing out that people with whom you have extremely sharp political ( philosophical, religious, cultural, generational, etc.) disagreements are actual human beings with while you share common values and much more than you may be comfortable with is not a ‘sob story.’

You are pedaling right-wing victimhood. Right-wingers aren't victims. They are the assholes that perpetuate the social and economic hierarchies from which they benefit (or think they benefit).

Moreover, when you lecture to people on the left about how right-wingers are "actual human beings", you are preaching to the choir. Left-wing politics are by definition egalitarian. Right-wingers are the ones who think inequality is natural and exists because some people are just better than others, e.g. "black people are poorer because they are lazy". So really, right-wingers are the ones you should be lecturing.

Loudly condemning others who hold somewhat different beliefs than you do is straight out of the FOX news playbook.

"somewhat different beliefs"

You are minimizing how destructive fascism is. These assholes tried to overthrow an election, they want to turn women into incubators, they are doing everything possible to make it harder for black people to vote, they are making life hell for lgbt people, they are concentrating more and more wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people, etc, etc...

I mean, what you're doing is like someone in Nazi Germany telling Jewish people that Jews and Nazis share a lot of common values. What would be the point? What good does that do Jewish people?

Nope. You’re projecting in order to justify your stance that anyone who disagrees with you even a little bit is the enemy and is also stupid, provincial, homophobic racism std and misogynists, hypocritical and beneath your notice—which does not prevent you from giving their faults plenty of your attention.

Nonsense. What exactly am I projecting?

I am quite tolerant of a variety of different views and opinions, however, fascism is beyond the pale. MAGA is a fascist movement. And yes, I do think it's fair to call the MAGA movement as a whole stupid, homophobic, racist, and misogynist. I would also add Christian nationalist.

I am guessing that you are too young to actually know people who escaped the Nazis because otherwise your comparison of most conservatives with the Nazis

I differentiate between conservatives and fascists. MAGA is clearly fascist and it is currently the dominant wing of the Republican party. The left wing of the GOP (Romney, Murkowski, Kinzinger and so on) are conservatives. What they have in common is that they all support socioeconomic hierarchy. Where they differ is in how extreme their views are, and how far they're willing to go to establish and perpetuate hierarchy. I'm generally fine with conservatives as they willing to work within a democratic framework, but I do have serious problems with conservatives who have remained with the GOP even after its turn toward fascism. These conservatives have made themselves fascist collaborators. If you are a decent person, you leave your political party when it turns fascist.

is on par with comparing liberals with China’s Cultural Revolution which still forces abortions on those who are unwilling to abort a child the state thinks they should not bear comes across as willfully ignorant and horribly disrespectful of victims of the Holocaust.

You are equating the conservative views of people you are certain are beneath you with fascism—which seems pretty fascist to me.

1. I don't do that, and
2. that's not what fascism is.

If you would like to know what fascism is, some good places to start are The Anatomy of Fascism and Ur Fascsim:

The Anatomy of Fascism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://archive.fo/oOTDZ

You seem to want war so badly: I think you should attempt to join the Peace Corps and spend some time in areas which have suffered and are suffering the horrific effects of war instead of playing hard as behind a keyboard.

I don't want war. They have more guns. I'm just tired of bothsidesing and false equivalence and I want people to understand that fascism is real and it still exists, and the fact that fascists stopped calling themselves fascists doesn't mean they are no longer a threat.

It is so nice to read that you differentiate between fascists and conservatives. That level of nuance has been utterly lacking in your attacks on me.

 

[CosmicJellyfish]

I haven't attacked you.

 

[Toni]

I haven't attacked you.

I see deliberately misrepresenting what I have actually typed as an attack. Which you have consistently done. The most radical thing I've written is that conservatives are actually real human beings with a different perspective than liberals, of which I am one. And that it is a good thing to look for common ground. And you've come very close to calling me a fascist, or at least a fascist sympathizer.

But you do you.

 

[TomC]

I see deliberately misrepresenting what I have actually typed as an attack.

This is really rich coming from you.

 

[Toni]

I see deliberately misrepresenting what I have actually typed as an attack.

This is really rich coming from you.

May I return the compliment?

 

[TomC]

I see deliberately misrepresenting what I have actually typed as an attack.

This is really rich coming from you.

May I return the compliment?

You already have.

 

[Toni]

Fire and Ice


BY ROBERT FROST

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.

From what I’ve tasted of desire

I hold with those who favor fire.

But if it had to perish twice,

I think I know enough of hate

To say that for destruction ice

Is also great

And would suffice.

 

[Rhea]

I haven't attacked you.
I see deliberately misrepresenting what I have actually typed as an attack. Which you have consistently done.

Er, Toni, you know I love ya. But you have consistently misrepresented me/us starting with “Elites call it flyover country,”which they DO NOT - the martyrs call themselves flyover country and attribute it to us, a thing we have never called them. Not in news, not in “elite circles”, not over lattes. That’s a label the martyrs of middle America have given themselves.

You went on to say how demeaning I am to rural people when **I AM RURAL PEOPLE**.


So, just for accuracy there’s been misrepresentation all through this thrread from you, so at the least some humble approach seems called for.

And you've come very close to calling me a fascist, or at least a fascist sympathizer.

Just for context - I ask you to consider that you came out swinging when several people disagreed with your premise that it’s the rural people who are good hearted, hard working folks who have just been demeaned by the elitists. We instead said the rural folks are just as likely to be assholes as anyone else. They aren’t special, and they aren’t specially left behind. They have COMMON GROUND with the rest of us that they can’t see through their victimhood lens.

But what I hear from a lot of my fellow liberals is a lot of unstated fuck your feelings and we college educated people know what’s best for YOU. Wrapped up in a lot of politically correct verbiage, of course.

So: rural and small town people are stupid.

Got it.

Y’all seem to want civil war because somehow you cannot understand that understanding someone has a different perspective than yours is not the same thing as agreeing with them. Real mature.

And let’s be clear: they are t disagreeing with me because I agree with conservative taking points. They are disagreeing with me because I dare to suggest that conservatives hold some of the same core values as liberals and that our country would be better served if we remember our shared values and build upon common ground.

I am not really supposed to think of conservatives as anything other than ignorant inbred mouth breathing bigoted idiots.

 

[laughing dog]

I see deliberately misrepresenting what I have actually typed as an attack.

This is really rich coming from you.

That one is truly ironic.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't understand this discussion. It should not be news to anyone that
1) every group and ideology has its assholes,
2) every group and ideology has its saints, and
3) every group and ideology has its ordinary folks.

Moreover, people's feelings are their feelings. Claiming X should not feel Y or has no cause to feel Y disregards the basic human fact that feelings are, at their base, irrational. If conservatives or rural folk feel under attack from ______, then deal with that reality. I leave in a rural area, and I see and hear some rural folk and conservatives feel their values and their way of life is under attack from "libruls" and "the elites" (whoever the fuck those people are). I know urban conservatives who feel their values and their way of life is under attack from "libruls" and "the elites". None of the negates that some of them make moderates, liberals and progressives feel under attack.

It is bleeding obvious to me that Toni's point is that there are good and well-meaning people on all sides who share basic values. As a nation, we need to build on those shared values. If we don't, we will just become more balkanized.

 

[Toni]

I haven't attacked you.
I see deliberately misrepresenting what I have actually typed as an attack. Which you have consistently done.

Er, Toni, you know I love ya. But you have consistently misrepresented me/us starting with “Elites call it flyover country,”which they DO NOT - the martyrs call themselves flyover country and attribute it to us, a thing we have never called them. Not in news, not in “elite circles”, not over lattes. That’s a label the martyrs of middle America have given themselves.

You went on to say how demeaning I am to rural people when **I AM RURAL PEOPLE**.


So, just for accuracy there’s been misrepresentation all through this thrread from you, so at the least some humble approach seems called for.

And you've come very close to calling me a fascist, or at least a fascist sympathizer.

Just for context - I ask you to consider that you came out swinging when several people disagreed with your premise that it’s the rural people who are good hearted, hard working folks who have just been demeaned by the elitists. We instead said the rural folks are just as likely to be assholes as anyone else. They aren’t special, and they aren’t specially left behind. They have COMMON GROUND with the rest of us that they can’t see through their victimhood lens.

But what I hear from a lot of my fellow liberals is a lot of unstated fuck your feelings and we college educated people know what’s best for YOU. Wrapped up in a lot of politically correct verbiage, of course.

So: rural and small town people are stupid.

Got it.

Y’all seem to want civil war because somehow you cannot understand that understanding someone has a different perspective than yours is not the same thing as agreeing with them. Real mature.

And let’s be clear: they are t disagreeing with me because I agree with conservative taking points. They are disagreeing with me because I dare to suggest that conservatives hold some of the same core values as liberals and that our country would be better served if we remember our shared values and build upon common ground.

I am not really supposed to think of conservatives as anything other than ignorant inbred mouth breathing bigoted idiots.

Flyover country is how I hear most of the midwest, aside from perhaps Chicago referred in various media forms. FWIW, I mostly read news (WaPo, NYT, local) and rarely watch local news. When I watch news, aside from something immediately pertinent on local news, it's almost always PBS. I do sometimes watch Congressional hearings on network tv but frankly, I struggle with the fact that most news sources are going for the outrage and hyperbolic opinion masquerading as news.

Rhea, I love you as well, but you do not seem to actually be part of your rural community, even though you work FOR your rural community. I don't live where you do and never have lived very near there but the experiences you've described--which I fully believe--are not something I've ever seen or close to it, anywhere I've lived. I completely believe your experiences as you've described them but they seem an aberration rather than anything else. Although I will say that I have had school board members tell me they received death threats over proposed school closures and closures of some school programs.

I never claimed that 'it's the rural people who are good hearted, etc.' Basically, what I've written is that rural people are very much like urban and suburban people. I don't know how many times in various threads I've written People are people are people but it's been multiple threads.

If this

Toni said:
What a lot of conservatives feel is attacked. They heavily feel the contempt that oozes from liberal talking points and tv shows that are so so cool and totally not within the ability of rubes to understand. They feel that their religious faith is under attack, that their way of life: farming, factory work, skilled or unskilled labor is looked down upon. That they are regarded as stupid and uninformed by those who went to college

is coming out swinging, then I don't know what to say.

When troops are being deployed to war zones, they are told over and over and over again how horrible the people in those zones are, how dangerous, how not really human the way we think of human beings. Otherwise, it would be very difficult to shoot at the enemy.

I refuse to see fellow Americans as the enemy. I'm horrified that so many people whose opinions I respect seem to feel otherwise. Rather, we need to look for common ground--and we need to confront and present evidence against those ideas which are ill formed or sloppy or just plain wrong.

 

[IIDB Staff]

Please quit the sniping at each other!

 

[Elixir]

Seriously, we’re arguing on whether all conservatives are subhuman?

PLEASE KNOCK IT OFF with the strawman.
I’m simply arguing the same thing that the FBI, NSA, CIA, et al have been saying for years. Which is NOT :

all conservatives are subhuman

You ignore the existential threat of the radical right because of a theoretical threat that someone else might represent.
Doing that under the cautionary banner of
“Anti-extreme anti-fascism” is kinda disingenuous imho. Anyhow, I don’t think the radical left is planning to steal the election for … I dunno - what’s the left equivalent of Trump? I can only think of Bernie Bros storming the Capitol. Sorry Toni, I just don’t see it and neither do you.

 

[Rhea]

If this

Toni said:
What a lot of conservatives feel is attacked. They heavily feel the contempt that oozes from liberal talking points and tv shows that are so so cool and totally not within the ability of rubes to understand. They feel that their religious faith is under attack, that their way of life: farming, factory work, skilled or unskilled labor is looked down upon. That they are regarded as stupid and uninformed by those who went to college

is coming out swinging, then I don't know what to say.

I bolded the parts that are swinging and here’s why I objected. I want to be clear to all that I’m not trying to snipe here, I am trying to debate this point.

“What a lot of conservatives feel is attacked” (implied - by liberals)

We get that.

What the conservatives need to also feel is they they are equally guilty, or equally not guilty, of oozing contempt, attacking or regarding others as stupid and uninformed.


That is my point. And that’s the one you have not acknowledged.

Any conservative who “feels attacked” should have the introspection and humility to accept that so do the liberals feel attacked - at conservative hands.. And then decide are we both guilty, or neither?

And if they are unable to acknowledge the death threats and oozing contempt of wearing “fuck your feelings” tee shirts, then why on earth should anyone stand aside and let their feelings be addressed first?

You say that my lived experience for the last 30 years must be an aberration. One that just doesn’t exist anywhere else.
Wut? Really you think my last 30 years are a little bubble that I never got out of? You really think my red-red congressional district is the only one in the nation to ooze contempt for liberals? To close or try to close libraries? To try to protest building permits for muslims? To have militias? To storm town hall meetings and school boards with shouting protestors?

I am a part of my community - especially the 25% who doesn’t follow “radical constitutionalism”. We have a lot of community. And the community voted for me twice. But I also know that the rural folks who are the most aggrieved about “the Elites (tm)” are the ones oozing the most contempt.


Any conservative who feels their “way of life is attacked” doesn’t get a pass from me for organizing a miitia.

When troops are being deployed to war zones, they are told over and over and over again how horrible the people in those zones are, how dangerous, how not really human the way we think of human beings. Otherwise, it would be very difficult to shoot at the enemy.

I refuse to see fellow Americans as the enemy.

I don’t want to either. I don’t think of them as the enemy. They are my compatriots, my neighbors. When someone gets run over by their tractor, we all work together to chop wood for the widow for winter.

But I know they can be very dangerous If they start thinking of me as a liberal. And I absolutely feel that my way of life is attacked when they close down the library.

I'm horrified that so many people whose opinions I respect seem to feel otherwise. Rather, we need to look for common ground--and we need to confront and present evidence against those ideas which are ill formed or sloppy or just plain wrong.

My point is that we *DO* look for common ground. I look for common ground. I resent you keep telling me/us that we don’t. I got elected twice where Dems are less than 1/4 of the registered voters. I just refuse to buy a one-sided statement that “conservatives feel attacked” without the real context that not only are they sometimes fabricating the attacks (nobody is calling them ‘flyover country,’ it’s just Hannity telling them that), but they also do the attacking.

 

[Toni]

Seriously, we’re arguing on whether all conservatives are subhuman?

PLEASE KNOCK IT OFF with the strawman.
I’m simply arguing the same thing that the FBI, NSA, CIA, et al have been saying for years. Which is NOT :

all conservatives are subhuman

You ignore the existential threat of the radical right because of a theoretical threat that someone else might represent.
Doing that under the cautionary banner of
“Anti-extreme anti-fascism” is kinda disingenuous imho. Anyhow, I don’t think the radical left is planning to steal the election for … I dunno - what’s the left equivalent of Trump? I can only think of Bernie Bros storming the Capitol. Sorry Toni, I just don’t see it and neither do you.

I absolutely do NOT ignore the existential threat of ANY extremists—right or left.

I was surprised that there are so many radical leftist organizations and that the right does not outnumber them by a s large a margin as I would have guessed.

The people I’m talking about did not storm the capitol. Being conservative and even voting for Trump ( either time) dies not mean that you supported the coup attempt! Although, tbh, in a lot of areas, news media is biased enough that it is not clear just what coverage much of the country saw or read.

 

[Toni]

If this

Toni said:
What a lot of conservatives feel is attacked. They heavily feel the contempt that oozes from liberal talking points and tv shows that are so so cool and totally not within the ability of rubes to understand. They feel that their religious faith is under attack, that their way of life: farming, factory work, skilled or unskilled labor is looked down upon. That they are regarded as stupid and uninformed by those who went to college

is coming out swinging, then I don't know what to say.

I bolded the parts that are swinging and here’s why I objected. I want to be clear to all that I’m not trying to snipe here, I am trying to debate this point.

“What a lot of conservatives feel is attacked” (implied - by liberals)

We get that.

What the conservatives need to also feel is they they are equally guilty, or equally not guilty, of oozing contempt, attacking or regarding others as stupid and uninformed.


That is my point. And that’s the one you have not acknowledged.

Any conservative who “feels attacked” should have the introspection and humilty to accept that so do the liberals - at their hands.. And then decide are we both guilty, or neither?

And if they are unable to acknowledge the death threats and oozing contempt of wearing “fuck your feelings” tee shirts, then why on earth should anyone stand aside and let their feelings be addressed first?

You say that my lived experience for the last 30 years must be an aberration. That just doesn’t exist anywhere else.
Wut? Really you think my last 30 years are a little bubble that I never got out of? You really think my red-red congressional district is the only one in the nation to ooze contempt for liberals? To close or try to close libraries? To try to protest building permits for mulims? To have militias? To storm town hall meetings and school boards?

I am a part of my community - the 25% who doesn’t follow “radical constitutionalism”. We have a lot of community. And the community voted for me twice. But I also know that the rural folks how are the most aggrieved about “the Elites (tm)” are the ones oozing the most contempt.


Any conservative who feels their “way of life is attacked” doesn’t get a pass from me for organizing a miitia.

When troops are being deployed to war zones, they are told over and over and over again how horrible the people in those zones are, how dangerous, how not really human the way we think of human beings. Otherwise, it would be very difficult to shoot at the enemy.

I refuse to see fellow Americans as the enemy.

I don’t want to either. I don’t think of them as the enemy. They are my compatriots, my neighbors. When someone gets run over by their tractor, we all work together to chop wood for the widow for winter.

But I know they can be very dangerous If they start thinking of me as a liberal. And I absolutely feel that my way of life is attacked when they close down the library.

I'm horrified that so many people whose opinions I respect seem to feel otherwise. Rather, we need to look for common ground--and we need to confront and present evidence against those ideas which are ill formed or sloppy or just plain wrong.

My point is that we *DO* look for common ground. I look for common ground. I resent you keep telling me/us that we don’t. I got elected twice where Dems are less than 1/4 of the registered voters. I just refuse to buy a one-sided statement that “conservatives feel attacked” without the real context that not only are they sometimes fabricating the attacks, but they also do the attacking.

I’m sorry that you do not find it worth your while to consider points of view other than your own.

Liberals are pretty well represented on this forum. It honestly did not occur to me that I needed to point out to anyone how liberals feel. Although, again, being honest, I don’t normally feel attacked here.

The big exceptions are when some people want to call me ugly names for saying that many women will object to make appearing persons in women’s only spaces —and when I suggest that conservatives are people, too. And that liberals and conservatives share many of the same values—even as they support different policies and strategies. And maybe we shouldn’t kill each other.

 

[Rhea]

I’m sorry that you do not find it worth your while to consider points of view other than your own.

I…. What?
What point am I not considering?

What part of …. I just… what?

 

[Elixir]

I absolutely do NOT ignore the existential threat of ANY extremists—right or left.

STILL with the equivocation???!!
Unreal, very disappointing.

“The Left” has nothing as dangerous as this. Not even remotely.
No equivalence whatsoever. Just stop, or give us some names.

 

[Rhea]

You don’t need to “point out how liberals feel.” (Toni, don’t ooze contempt…) The discussion, where we were considering other people’s points of view, was that that we get that conservatives feel attacked, and to fix the situation, we should, and they should, look at the whole situation. If we can get them to see us as human, they won’t feel so attacked.

Obviously I’m going to talk differently here than I would face to face. Where I’ll try to understand their human need to be heard, and give them space to vent without showing any negative emotion that might set them off, and try to carefully DISCUSS with them a larger context, including showing howliberals are not attacking them.

 

[TomC]

Liberals are pretty well represented on this forum.

?!?!?!

Liberals have pretty much gotten rid of everyone else.
Tom