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Covid-19 miscellany

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
A North Dakota GOP lawmaker helped organize an anti-vaccine rally. Then he got covid and couldn’t attend.

A North Dakota GOP lawmaker helped organize an anti-vaccine rally. Then he got covid and couldn’t attend.
Andrea Salcedo8:37 a.m. EST

Days ahead of an anti-vaccine rally he helped organize, North Dakota lawmaker Jeff Hoverson, a Republican, urged his social media followers to gather on the steps of the state capitol on Monday to oppose coronavirus vaccine mandates.

“Noon Monday capital steps Bismarck. We The People rally,” Hoverson wrote on Facebook. “Extremely important for freedom from mandates legislation.”

But he did not make it to the event.

On Sunday, a day before the rally, Hoverson announced he would be skipping the event because he had contracted the coronavirus. He said that he did not need to check into a hospital because he was taking ivermectin — a deworming drug that some people are using to prevent or treat covid, despite several public health agencies advising against it.
He may get very sick, he may even die... but he'll do it without worms!
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
We are still 1,000+ a day dying, 7-day average (and new cases appear to be increasing now), and these buffoons are just yucking it up right-wing populism style.
 

jab

Veteran Member
I have to wear a mask at Playhouse Square not because of state or municipal regs, but because tens of millions of idiots didn't get vaccinated which has prolonged this pandemic. That you are upset at municipalities for the ridiculous stupidity of Americans that refuse to help solve the problem is just a sign of how bitter you are politically.

That you go along with the charade is just a sign of how willfully ignorant you really are. These mandates are not about concern for people's health or science. It's about power drunk autocrats exerting their neuroses over ordinary people and virtue signaling wankers wagging their fingers in disapproval at the out group.
What proof have you to offer for the assertions in your last 2 sentences, which appear willfully ignorant to me.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
We are still 1,000+ a day dying, 7-day average (and new cases appear to be increasing now), and these buffoons are just yucking it up right-wing populism style.
It seems interesting the convergence of anti-science leftists, hyper-partisan right-wingers and alt-right-wingers, and minorities, as we appear to be seeing cases rise into potentially another fucking wave, as the north heads indoors.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member

New emails and documents released by a congressional committee investigating the Trump administration’s handling of the pandemic show the extent to which top White House officials interfered in the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s efforts to warn Americans about Covid-19.The House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Crisis has conducted interviews over the last several months about how former President Donald Trump and his closest confidantes, including former White House adviser Scott Atlas and son-in-law Jared Kushner, tried to steer the course of the federal response, sidestepping the interagency process.
Several top former Trump officials, including Deborah Birx, the former White House Covid-19 task force coordinator, have answered committee questions. Former National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases Director Nancy Messonnier and former CDC Principal Deputy Director Anne Schuchat also appeared for questioning. Both stepped down from their posts at the CDC in the spring.
---
The documents released by the committee — and the corresponding interviews with witnesses — lay out a timeline for how the Trump White House began to downplay the dangers posed by Covid-19. Several former high-level Trump officials who worked on the administration’s response have said publicly after the fact that they did not want to panic the American public.
---
But scientists at the CDC, well aware that the virus was transmitting at a high rate and could infect easily, stepped in early to speak to the American people directly in an attempt to warn the public about what was coming.
Following Messonnier’s comments in the Feb. 25 briefing, the leadership at the Department of Health and Human Services called yet another press conference.

“The impression that I was given was that the reaction to the morning briefing was quite volatile and having another briefing — you know, later I think I got the impression that having another briefing might get — you know, there was nothing new to report, but get additional voices out there talking about that situation,” Schuchat told the committee in her testimony.
From that point, the White House took the lead on the federal response and controlling all communications and messaging about the virus, denying CDC requests to hold its own briefings.

“We would submit a request to the others to do a briefing and it was declined, and then — or we didn’t get approval to be able to do one,” Schuchat said, referring to specific requests she received from the media for an interview. Schuchat said the White House also denied several agency telebriefings in the spring of 2020 that would have allowed CDC scientists to explain emerging evidence about how the virus moved and infected different populations.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Austria plans to approve lockdown for the unvaccinated on Sunday
Roughly 65% of Austria’s population is fully vaccinated against COVID-19, one of the lowest rates in Western Europe. Many Austrians are sceptical about vaccines, a view encouraged by the far-right Freedom Party, the third-biggest in parliament.

“The aim is very clear: that we give the green light this Sunday for a nationwide lockdown for the unvaccinated,” Schallenberg, a conservative, told a news conference, adding that intensive-care units are increasingly strained.

“The development is such that I do not think it is sensible to wait … We will take this step now and my wish is that we take this step on Sunday and nationally for all nine provinces.”
Unvaccinated people will have the restrictions that all people had in that nation's three lockdowns last year. Chancellor Alexander Schallenberg wants to avoid locking down vaccinated people to give people more incentive to get vaccinated.

Germany plans to classify Austria as high-risk, meaning that anyone returning from there must be quarantined.
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
Thousands March in protest in Australia.


Thousands of demonstrators descended on to Melbourne’s central business district on Saturday, protesting against the Victorian government’s new pandemic powers and vaccine mandates. The protest, which included signs advocating violence against politicians and a man carrying a prop gallows with three nooses hanging from it, came as the state recorded 1,221 Covid-19 cases and four deaths.

Teh Gruaniad

The control freaks and authoritarians will not give up their powers easily.
 

TomC

Veteran Member
Thousands March in protest in Australia.


Thousands of demonstrators descended on to Melbourne’s central business district on Saturday, protesting against the Victorian government’s new pandemic powers and vaccine mandates. The protest, which included signs advocating violence against politicians and a man carrying a prop gallows with three nooses hanging from it, came as the state recorded 1,221 Covid-19 cases and four deaths.

Teh Gruaniad

The control freaks and authoritarians will not give up their powers easily.
Quite true.
Apparently, nobody has managed to convince Trump or his supporters that he lost the election in 2020.
We the People also voted against him in 2016.

Trump has never been elected by any free and fair election. Never. He got appointed once by a rigged system, but that's not the same.

Still, you are correct. The control freaks and authoritarians will not give up their powers easily. Which is why "Stop the Steal" is still a thing.
Tom
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Ron DeSantis Is on Team COVID, and Damn Whatever Happens to Florida - "The Florida governor has been waging a war on public health, with predictably horrifying results."
Politicians are often derided as opportunists; but Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis recently took things to a new level—by killing his supporters for political gain.

In July, a virologist on the faculty of Florida Medical College warned that the highly transmissible Delta variant of the COVID-19 virus was about to cause a massive new wave of illness and death within the state’s still large unvaccinated population. “If you have a functioning set of lungs and no immunity, this virus will find you,” he said.
Instead, he declared war on mask mandates and vaccine mandates. All in the name of "freedom", and without even saying "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees".

It's evident to me that he and Greg Abbott of Texas both think that viruses ought to have more reproductive rights than members of our species.

I remember being brought down by a nasty intestinal bug and thinking about how it was a primitive sort of organism much like the earliest ones on our planet, and now we are being attacked by an even simpler organism, one that uses our cells' replication mechanisms to reproduce itself.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Austria and Germany impose restrictions on unvaccinated people as COVID cases surge : Coronavirus Updates : NPR
Austria has placed some 2 million unvaccinated people on partial lockdown, while neighboring Germany has reintroduced free coronavirus testing, as the two countries contend with soaring rates of COVID-19 amid a Europe-wide wave of new infections.

Unvaccinated people in Austria will only be allowed to leave their homes for work, food shopping or emergencies, according to the new mandate beginning Monday.

Police are conducting spot checks of digital vaccine certificates, though there's skepticism about how effectively the lockdown can be enforced.

...
Meanwhile, the Netherlands Saturday night imposed a partial lockdown that is set to remain in place for at least three weeks, amid a surge in COVID-19 cases that have put a severe strain on Dutch hospitals.

The measures will limit hours for bars, restaurants and supermarkets. There is also a limit of four guests per household, and spectators are once again banned from sporting events.

New Delhi air pollution is so bad, officials call for a lockdown : NPR
India's Supreme Court is calling for a lockdown in the capital, New Delhi. It's because of a health emergency, but it's not about COVID-19. It's about air pollution.

At a hearing Monday, justices ordered authorities to halt all nonessential travel on roads in the national capital region. They also told them to close offices in the area, shifting tens of millions of people to work from home.

...
New Delhi's schools are already closed this week because of air pollution that's been about four times the safe limit. Construction sites are also on pause, which will ultimately slow the economy.

This is all because of toxic smog across much of northern India. It happens every winter as industrial and vehicular emissions mix with smoke from crop-burning after the harvest.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
QAnon and Trump-Flag Waving Anti-Vaxxers Tried to Storm New Zealand’s Parliament
Almost a year after the Capitol riot, anti-vaccine mandate protesters in New Zealand attempted to storm the country’s parliament on Tuesday. And just like at the riot in Washington D.C. on January 6, many of those protesting were waving American flags, supporting former President Trump, and spouting QAnon conspiracies.

...
Protests took place across New Zealand on Tuesday, organized by anti-vaxxer groups critical of the vaccine mandate introduced by Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and her government. The biggest protest took place in the capital Wellington on Tuesday, which saw thousands of protesters descend on the parliament in scenes eerily reminiscent of the attack on the Capitol.

Prior to the protests on Tuesday, organizers had urged those attending to storm the parliament building. “A group of 1000 people can storm in and get her and her supporters and arrest them for treason,” a user in one Telegram group used to organize the protest wrote. “Or shoot them. If we don’t have guns, shoot them up with a triple dose of Pfizer.”

...
In the past, many non-U.S. QAnon groups have dramatically changed the conspiracy theories to their specific sociopolitical and cultural environments. As QAnon emerged from fringe websites like 8chan, early adopters took the messages posted by the anonymous leader Q and interpreted or decoded them to fit their own narratives.

But in Wellington on Tuesday, the QAnon supporters were waving Trump flags, suggesting they had bought into the narrative coming out of the U.S. wholesale.
henry cooke on Twitter: "Bunch of QAnon protestors here who earnestly believe Jacinda Ardern was arrested two years ago in the White House and is wearing an ankle bracelet. (link)" / Twitter

Watch a Beverly Hills Anti-Vaxxer Scream at School Kids Vaccines Are ‘Rape’ - "A group of militant anti-vaccine activists protested children walking to school in Beverly Hills on Wednesday."
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Jebus!

article said:
Ryan Drock, who also was infected but recovered from COVID, told the Post he's not giving up.

“I’m hoping they name a law after her so no one has to go through this,” Drock said. “If she had walked out of the hospital she could have had the medication.”
It is becoming a mental illness. His wife, 47 years old, would very likely never been hospitalized had she been vaccinated. Instead, she wasn't, and her husband thinks she died because the hospital wouldn't give her a medication that doesn't help treat Covid-19 infection. He is going to be angry for years at the only people that actually tried to save her life, despite all of the awful advice she listened to from others before being infected that led to her wrong decision to not be vaccinated.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
And the Northeast is seeing increases. They are starting low, so it isn't like the South with their waves, at least not yet. The connection might be the cold, more stuff indoors. The other consideration is Halloween. Cases seemed to stop dropping then.

With vaccination of 5 to 11, hopefully that will hold back contractions in a very noticeable way. I talked with the Nurse this morning and she said vaccination numbers for 5 to 11 have been positive, a good even flow since they started poking adolescents. Unfortunately, we won't know about breakthroughs in vax'd children via Delta for a bit.
 

TomC

Veteran Member

greek antivaxers got screwed. They paid 400 euro for fake vaccine shots,....... except it was real :)
I suppose it's mean to laugh...

He said while sniggering.
Tom
 

crazyfingers

Super Moderator
Staff member
How sick is America? How's this. Company job postings advertising "No Vaccine Required"


I wonder if vaccinated employees will start quitting these places. If I was not retiring soon and if I had not been full time remote prior to the pandemic, I'd refuse to go into the office if vaccines were not required. I'll be needed to hire a plumber soon. I'll be insisting that the plumber who comes into my house be vaccinated.

Those who are sane and understand that vaccination is necessary to beat this thing need to push back on companies that take this incredibly short term view.
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member

greek antivaxers got screwed. They paid 400 euro for fake vaccine shots,....... except it was real :)
I feel sorry for them, actually. Some are probably desperate. I know from another website a Greek antivaxer who a couple of months ago was willing to get infected and isolate for two weeks to protect others, but was very worried because that was not allowed and he was worried that vaccines would become mandatory. He kinda got it right, though it's not as strong a mandate as in Austria I think.

Btw, how are you feeling? Have you recovered completely yet?
 

barbos

Contributor
Btw, how are you feeling? Have you recovered completely yet?
Almost 3 weeks now.
Except for sense of smell and some coughing I am perfectly fine.
Both are improving too. I noticed that I smell complex chemicals much better than simple ones like alcohol and vinegar.
Basically 3 days of high temperature, then 3 days of almost normal (36.8)
and after that it got better. I would call it a mild case.
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
Btw, how are you feeling? Have you recovered completely yet?
Almost 3 weeks now.
Except for sense of smell and some coughing I am perfectly fine.
Both are improving too. I noticed that I smell complex chemicals much better than simple ones like alcohol and vinegar.
Basically 3 days of high temperature, then 3 days of almost normal (36.8)
and after that it got better. I would call it mild case.
Good to hear that you're doing better :) ,yeah, it looks like a mild case. I hope you fully recover soon.
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
Ridiculous. It’s disappointing that so many people go along with this shit.

Meanwhile in Rotterdam, violent protests are taking place against fascist lockdowns.
 
Last edited:

lpetrich

Contributor
Austria will enter lockdown and make COVID-19 vaccines mandatory : NPR
Austria will go into a national lockdown to contain a fourth wave of coronavirus cases, Chancellor Alexander Schallenberg announced Friday, as new COVID-19 infections hit a record high amid a pandemic surge across Europe.

The lockdown will start Monday and initially will last for 10 days, Schallenberg said.

And starting Feb. 1, the country will also make vaccinations mandatory.

Most stores will close, and cultural events will be canceled next week. People will be able to leave their homes only for certain specific reasons, including buying groceries, going to the doctor or exercising.

Wolfgang Mueckstein, the country's health minister, said that kindergartens and schools would remain open for those who needed to go there but all parents were asked to keep their children at home if possible.

...
Austria's intensive care doctors welcomed the government's decision.

"The record infection figures that we have now experienced day after day will only be reflected in normal and intensive care units with a time lag. It really is high time for a full stop," Walter Hasibeder, the president of the Society for Anesthesiology, Resuscitation and Intensive Care Medicine, told Austrian news agency APA.

"Given the current infection developments, we believe there are no alternatives to even greater contact restriction than recently, so any measures that help curb the momentum are welcome," he added.
So that lockdown is being imposed for a reason, and the reason is not control freakishness for the sake of control freakishness.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Ridiculous. It’s disappointing that so many people go along with this shit.

Meanwhile in Rotterdam, violent protests are taking place against fascist lockdowns.
Besides banning the non-vaxxed from most shops, Melbourne has also had the longest lockdowns in the world and big protests - including nooses and days later a working gallows -

Apparently they have around 90% vaccinated and might to go to 94%.

Two months ago the police tried to stop protests by shutting down the CBD for several hours:


The government is trying to pass laws to fine people $90,000 or lock them up for 2 years for not wearing a mask... but then they decided to halve the fines....

 

blastula

Contributor
Shocker.


Of the study sample, 17.2% (N = 1842) indicated they were hesitant about having the vaccine. After adjustment for age, sex, and ethnicity, study members with a lower baseline cognition score were markedly more likely to be vaccine hesitant (odds ratio per standard deviation lower score in cognition; 95% confidence interval: 1.76; 1.62, 1.90).
 
Interesting. So the intelligent anti-vaxxers are actually outliers. That confirms to me that their stance is more likely to be taken as a result of personal egoism and desire to make themselves important, as they are the ones pushing the conspiracy theories.

Ruth
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Interesting. So the intelligent anti-vaxxers are actually outliers. That confirms to me that their stance is more likely to be taken as a result of personal egoism and desire to make themselves important, as they are the ones pushing the conspiracy theories.
I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions about that about the more intelligent sort of anti-vaxxers, even though I consider the anti-vaxx position difficult to support. Some of them may be doing as a way of owning the libs, for instance.
 

Shadowy Man

Veteran Member
Interesting. So the intelligent anti-vaxxers are actually outliers. That confirms to me that their stance is more likely to be taken as a result of personal egoism and desire to make themselves important, as they are the ones pushing the conspiracy theories.
I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions about that about the more intelligent sort of anti-vaxxers, even though I consider the anti-vaxx position difficult to support. Some of them may be doing as a way of owning the libs, for instance.
And that is an intelligent reason?
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Interesting. So the intelligent anti-vaxxers are actually outliers. That confirms to me that their stance is more likely to be taken as a result of personal egoism and desire to make themselves important, as they are the ones pushing the conspiracy theories.
I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions about that about the more intelligent sort of anti-vaxxers, even though I consider the anti-vaxx position difficult to support. Some of them may be doing as a way of owning the libs, for instance.
And that is an intelligent reason?
It's a bad reason, yes, but one might wish that they would be more willing to reassess their anti-vaxx position rather than thinking about how best they can own the libs.
 
Interesting. So the intelligent anti-vaxxers are actually outliers. That confirms to me that their stance is more likely to be taken as a result of personal egoism and desire to make themselves important, as they are the ones pushing the conspiracy theories.
I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions about that about the more intelligent sort of anti-vaxxers, even though I consider the anti-vaxx position difficult to support. Some of them may be doing as a way of owning the libs, for instance.
And that is an intelligent reason?
It's a bad reason, yes, but one might wish that they would be more willing to reassess their anti-vaxx position rather than thinking about how best they can own the libs.
Actually, it may be more related than you think. "Owning the libs" is basically an expression of personal ego. Just take a look at all those politicians who are pushing their "conservative agenda". They wouldn't do that unless they thought it would add to their public visibility and increase their importance in the eyes of their constituents. The same is true of those doctors and scientists who are pushing back against the vaccine; they have found a way to make themselves highly visible and make money too. I don't think it actually has a single thing to do with what they actually know or believe.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
It's fascinating to see the power of political tribalism and propaganda.

Here in Australia, people protesting against public health measures could, in principle, be assumed to have a genuine case, based on real concerns about government overreach and the possible long term political consequences of legislation passed in haste.

But if their concerns are that their state, or the commonwealth, might be making bad law, or impinging on their rights as citizens, then you have to wonder why so many of them are expressing those concerns by reference to a former President of a nation on the other side of the planet.

The US media and propaganda machine, particularly its Internet arms, is oblivious to the rest of the world; And so their attempts to manipulate US public opinion spill over, and we see morons marching through Brisbane nominally to protest against public health measures by the Queensland Government, carrying signs and banners in support of Donald Trump.

These fools aren't even aware that they're being inadvertently manipulated by the fallout from propaganda targeted at a different continent. All they know is that things are bad, and it's Biden's fault for stealing the Whitehouse from Trump. They might as well be blaming their disgruntlement on Brexit, or on the results of Peruvian soccer matches. But those things aren't being whipped up as a cause for protest on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube, so their ire is directed at the utterly irrelevant Biden administration instead.
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
The good people of Europe are starting to stand up to the authoritarians;

Violence today broke out in Vienna as 10,000 protesters - many from far-right groups - took to the streets to demonstrate against a new Covid-19 lockdown and mandatory vaccinations. Demonstrations against virus restrictions also took place in Switzerland, Croatia, Italy, Northern Ireland, the Netherlands and North Macedonia on Saturday, a day after Dutch police opened fire on protesters and seven people were injured in rioting that erupted in Rotterdam.

DailyMail
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
The good dumb people of Europe are starting to stand up to the authoritarians;

Violence today broke out in Vienna as 10,000 protesters - many from far-right groups - took to the streets to demonstrate against a new Covid-19 lockdown and mandatory vaccinations. Demonstrations against virus restrictions also took place in Switzerland, Croatia, Italy, Northern Ireland, the Netherlands and North Macedonia on Saturday, a day after Dutch police opened fire on protesters and seven people were injured in rioting that erupted in Rotterdam.

DailyMail
FTFY
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
Interesting. So the intelligent anti-vaxxers are actually outliers. That confirms to me that their stance is more likely to be taken as a result of personal egoism and desire to make themselves important, as they are the ones pushing the conspiracy theories.
I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions about that about the more intelligent sort of anti-vaxxers, even though I consider the anti-vaxx position difficult to support. Some of them may be doing as a way of owning the libs, for instance.
And that is an intelligent reason?
It's a bad reason, yes, but one might wish that they would be more willing to reassess their anti-vaxx position rather than thinking about how best they can own the libs.
Actually, it may be more related than you think. "Owning the libs" is basically an expression of personal ego. Just take a look at all those politicians who are pushing their "conservative agenda". They wouldn't do that unless they thought it would add to their public visibility and increase their importance in the eyes of their constituents. The same is true of those doctors and scientists who are pushing back against the vaccine; they have found a way to make themselves highly visible and make money too. I don't think it actually has a single thing to do with what they actually know or believe.
If you want to know what more intelligent people who reject vaccines believe, I would suggest reading their arguments. Some are just rattled because some of their freedoms are taken away in a way that interferes seriously with their lifestyle (which involves not using medicine for the most part, avoiding processed foods or other things when doable, etc.).
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Interesting. So the intelligent anti-vaxxers are actually outliers. That confirms to me that their stance is more likely to be taken as a result of personal egoism and desire to make themselves important, as they are the ones pushing the conspiracy theories.
I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions about that about the more intelligent sort of anti-vaxxers, even though I consider the anti-vaxx position difficult to support. Some of them may be doing as a way of owning the libs, for instance.
And that is an intelligent reason?
It's a bad reason, yes, but one might wish that they would be more willing to reassess their anti-vaxx position rather than thinking about how best they can own the libs.
Actually, it may be more related than you think. "Owning the libs" is basically an expression of personal ego. Just take a look at all those politicians who are pushing their "conservative agenda". They wouldn't do that unless they thought it would add to their public visibility and increase their importance in the eyes of their constituents. The same is true of those doctors and scientists who are pushing back against the vaccine; they have found a way to make themselves highly visible and make money too. I don't think it actually has a single thing to do with what they actually know or believe.
If you want to know what more intelligent people who reject vaccines believe, I would suggest reading their arguments. Some are just rattled because some of their freedoms are taken away in a way that interferes seriously with their lifestyle (which involves not using medicine for the most part, avoiding processed foods or other things when doable, etc.).
Their freedoms are not as important as their health.

And even if they are stupid enough to believe that they are, their freedoms are most certainly not more important than my health.

People who engage in behaviours that are damaging to others are routinely restrained from doing so by society. That's pretty much the sole purpose of society in the first place.

I have zero sympathy for childish individualists who insist that they have the freedom to endanger others. Society has not only the right, but a duty to force such people to behave in a way that doesn't endanger others, or to deprive them of their liberty if tbey persist in their harmful behaviour. That applies equally to those who persist in refusing a vaccination against a deadly disease, as it does to those who persist in driving while drunk.

Fuck their lifestyle. My lifestyle requires that my family don't have their lives endangered by the counter-factual beliefs of spoiled middle class brats whose lives have been so effectively protected against disease that they have no concept of how dangerous it can be.

You can tell when someone is "more intelligent", by the fact that they do NOT reject vaccines. (Or clean water, or food safety standards, or traffic regulations, or any of the thousands of technological and social advances that enable us to live long, healthy, and pleasant lives).
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
bilby said:
Their freedoms are not as important as their health.
More important to whom? To them, they are - though they actually do not believe the exercise of freedom is bad for their health in this case.

Regardless, I was talking about the motivation. It's easy to make a caricature of one's opponents, but better to actually learn what they think, or just realize one does not know.


bilby said:
And even if they are stupid enough to believe that they are, their freedoms are most certainly not more important than my health.
Not to you. Whether the government should give more weight to one or the other is a matter to be assessed on a case by case basis. They're mistaken, but that does not mean that confining them is a proper course of action. By the way, as I mentioned in the previous post, the intelligent guy I have in mind is willing to get infected and isolated for 15 days if needed in order to get immunity and not be a risk to others. That too would be a loss of freedom, but one more bearable to him than a vaccine (he does not reject against vaccines specifically, but medicine in general, processed food, etc. )

bilby said:
People who engage in behaviours that are damaging to others are routinely restrained from doing so by society.
I'm not sure how that is related to my point about their motivation, but that depends on the behavior. People who do not wear face masks and do not vaccinate because of the flu pre-covid are not restrained. People who engage in behaviors like promoting Christianity, Islam, Marxism, Wokeism, or anti-nuclear activism are also not restrained (well, not in your country anyway), even though those are behaviors that are damaging to others.


bilby said:
That's pretty much the sole purpose of society in the first place.

Society does not have a purpose. Humans, like other monkeys, are social animals. Society just is.


bilby said:
I have zero sympathy for childish individualists who insist that they have the freedom to endanger others. Society has not only the right, but a duty to force such people to behave in a way that doesn't endanger others, or to deprive them of their liberty if tbey persist in their harmful behaviour. That applies equally to those who persist in refusing a vaccination against a deadly disease, as it does to those who persist in driving while drunk.
Well, the guy I mentioned is willing to get infected and isolated. But that aside, generally these people do not believe they are endangering others (yes, they are mistaken, but the motivation is different).

That aside, you say "Society has not only the right, but a duty to force such people to behave in a way that doesn't endanger others, or to deprive them of their liberty if tbey persist in their harmful behaviour. That applies equally to those who persist in refusing a vaccination against a deadly disease, as it does to those who persist in driving while drunk.".

How deadly?

The flu is a deadly disease: it kills many people. Covid is much deadlier. But again, where to draw the line? (at any rate, how about those willing to get infected and isolated to get immunity? )


bilby said:
Fuck their lifestyle. My lifestyle requires that my family don't have their lives endangered by the counter-factual beliefs of spoiled middle class brats whose lives have been so effectively protected against disease that they have no concept of how dangerous it can be.
But he is - and his family, so they are - willing to be infected. They just do not want vaccines. Or medicines. Or processed foods. Etc.


bilby said:
You can tell when someone is "more intelligent", by the fact that they do NOT reject vaccines.
(Or clean water, or food safety standards, or traffic regulations, or any of the thousands of technological and social advances that enable us to live long, healthy, and pleasant lives).[

You can't. There is some correlation for sure, but you can find a lot of highly intelligent people who believe that Jesus walked on water, raised the dead and resurrected. That's even more improbable than their claims about the vaccines, even if the latter are very improbable too. But you can tell he's smart enough to do philosophy reasonably well. That's considerably above average.
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
Australia sees huge “anti-covid” protests.

Anti-COVID protests are underway in Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane. In Melbourne, demonstrators are converging on the steps of parliament and police are preparing for tensions to flare. The crowd in the CBD is huge as the streets are packed with people protesting the handling of the virus and the proposed pandemic legislation.
SkyNews


“Anti-covid” is a weird way of putting it but nevertheless, people all over the world are protesting government overreach.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Australia sees huge “anti-covid” protests.

Anti-COVID protests are underway in Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane. In Melbourne, demonstrators are converging on the steps of parliament and police are preparing for tensions to flare. The crowd in the CBD is huge as the streets are packed with people protesting the handling of the virus and the proposed pandemic legislation.
SkyNews


“Anti-covid” is a weird way of putting it but nevertheless, people idiots all over the world are protesting government overreach.
FTFY
 

Jarhyn

Contributor
Australia sees huge “anti-covid” protests.

Anti-COVID protests are underway in Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane. In Melbourne, demonstrators are converging on the steps of parliament and police are preparing for tensions to flare. The crowd in the CBD is huge as the streets are packed with people protesting the handling of the virus and the proposed pandemic legislation.
SkyNews


“Anti-covid” is a weird way of putting it but nevertheless, people idiots all over the world are protesting government overreach.
FTFY
Well, how else do you attack the movement against fascism except to paint social concern as fascism and fascism as "a big nothing-burger"?

It's classic DARVO
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
Europe descended into a third day of violent carnage on Sunday as tens of thousands of people in Belgium took to the streets to protest against the return of strict lockdown rules aimed at curbing a rise in Covid infections. Nearly 40,000 people descended on the capital Brussels to protest against new anti-Covid measures banning the unvaccinated from entering restaurants and bars.

DailyMail

All this talk of banning the unvaccinated from public life has a very familiar ring to it.
 

blastula

Contributor
The good dumb people of Europe are starting to stand up to the authoritarians;

Violence today broke out in Vienna as 10,000 protesters - many from far-right groups - took to the streets to demonstrate against a new Covid-19 lockdown and mandatory vaccinations. Demonstrations against virus restrictions also took place in Switzerland, Croatia, Italy, Northern Ireland, the Netherlands and North Macedonia on Saturday, a day after Dutch police opened fire on protesters and seven people were injured in rioting that erupted in Rotterdam.

DailyMail
FTFY

The dumb sociopaths.

 
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TomC

Veteran Member
Europe descended into a third day of violent carnage on Sunday as tens of thousands of people in Belgium took to the streets to protest against the return of strict lockdown rules aimed at curbing a rise in Covid infections. Nearly 40,000 people descended on the capital Brussels to protest against new anti-Covid measures banning the unvaccinated from entering restaurants and bars.

DailyMail

All this talk of banning the unvaccinated from public life has a very familiar ring to it.
The internet is a big place. It's possible that someone, somewhere, advocates for this. But I don't know about any, of any importance.

Requiring people to choose between anti-social behaviour( like remaining unvaccinated) and being part of society( like going to bars and concerts) is not banning the unvaccinated from public life. It's unvaccinated people choosing something and then having consequences.

People who freely choose to remain unvaccinated are making a choice. But then, they can't also choose to mingle.

Pretending to be victims is another choice.
It's very much like people who choose to drink are making a choice. Choosing to drive afterwards doesn't make them a victim of the judiciary or police. Their freedom is not being infringed upon, in any rational way. We, the rest of society, want people who feel free to choose both drinking and driving to suffer enough consequences to dampen that antisocial behaviour.
I don't care that someone decides that they have to drive because they're too drunk to walk home.
Tom
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor

The dumb sociopaths.

Or as Kevin Sorbo once replied to “Is your freedom more important than my safety?!”
I don’t know you, my lunch is more important to me than you are.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
That aside, you say "Society has not only the right, but a duty to force such people to behave in a way that doesn't endanger others, or to deprive them of their liberty if tbey persist in their harmful behaviour. That applies equally to those who persist in refusing a vaccination against a deadly disease, as it does to those who persist in driving while drunk.".

How deadly?

The flu is a deadly disease: it kills many people. Covid is much deadlier. But again, where to draw the line? (at any rate, how about those willing to get infected and isolated to get immunity? )

1) Flu is not a serious threat to a healthy person. They conduct medical studies in which (young, healthy) people are deliberately infected with flu. That is considered acceptable medical practice because it poses basically zero risk of serious consequences to the test subjects.

2) We have already learned that getting infected doesn't produce immunity--you're immune to that version but it very well might not protect you from variants. The vaccine (other than the Chinese crap that's a killed-virus vaccine, provides about the same protection as prior infection--bad) provides better protection than prior infection.
 
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