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Covid-19 miscellany

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
Loren Pechtel said:
Flu usually only kills those already severely weakened. If the flu didn't get them chances are something else soon would.
1. Suppose I say "COVID usually only kills those fully vaccinated people who are already severely weakened.". Do you have evidence that the 'usually' is more so for the flu, and by a significant margin?
To put it in other words, do you have good evidence that the flu is less dangerous than COVID is to fully vaccinated people, and also by a margin that would justify radically different treatments.

Further, suppose you add face masks - good and properly used. Do you think COVID poses overall a significantly greater risk to fully vaccinated people when unvaccinated people are wearing good masks, than the flu?

2. Even if they are severely weakened, it does not mean something else will get them - especially not if respiratory illnesses are not around.


Loren Pechtel said:
No. Prior infection provides stronger immunity than the vaccine. The vaccine provides broader immunity. They are different things. If you get the virus your resistance to that strain is very high--but you don't have very good protection against other strains and thus reinfection is likely. This is why we have never had a coronavirus vaccine before--they're too good at evading. Only the vaccines based on targeting a reasonably stable part of the virus have worked.
1. Again, evidence?

2. Delta makes up nearly all cases. If someone has stronger immunity against delta than they'd get with the best vaccines, it does not seem to make sense not to count them as immunized.

3. Sinopharm's vaccine targets the whole virus. And it's not as good as viral vector vaccines or mRNA vaccines - though it's unclear which immunity's might last longer -, but it does work. It was made with the original strain. And it still works against Delta - else, we would not be opening up pretty much everything over here, while fatalities continue to fall.


Loren Pechtel said:
Be very wary of anything on medrxiv. That's a pre-print server, there is no verification of what's posted. The death cultists have been publishing all sorts of crap on there recently, elementary math errors, outright fabrication and the like, then they point to the articles as if they have scientific merit.
Well, I posted some evidence. I found no replies debunking it, and good reviews from other scientists. It's not conclusive, and I said it was not and the jury was still out. So, yes, I am careful enough.

Do you have something better?

Loren Pechtel said:
The jury came back long ago, it's just the death cultists are trying to pull a 1/6.
Evidence?

Loren Pechtel said:
IIRC it's about 50%. Useful at a population level, not much protection at the individual level.
Actually, I posted much earlier the results of a local study, which was far larger than the original trials.

Link (in Spanish, but you can use Google translate if you want): https://www.lanacion.com.ar/socieda...acunas-que-se-aplican-en-el-pais-nid01072021/

At least over here, it's 61.6% first dose, 84% after two (that was before Delta, but still vs. variants, mostly Gamma and Lambda at the time, even though it's based on the original strain; Delta now dominates, but things are getting better rather than worse). But that is the protection against symptomatic infection. It is far higher against serious cases including death.

I think you may have been thinking about Sinovac's vaccine, which is also a dead-virus vaccine, but for some reason it's proven considerably less effective than Sinopharm's from what I read. Perhaps the people making the former messed up at some point.

Loren Pechtel said:
Politics.
How so?
Are you saying they're trying to be friendly with China?
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Republicans Fight Covid Mandates, Then Blame Biden as Cases Rise - The New York Times
"Republicans have fought mask requirements and vaccine mandates for months, but as coronavirus infections again rise, they are blaming the president for failing to end the health crisis."

Sort of like killing one's parents and then begging for mercy because one is an orphan.

It is much like Mitch McConnell's policy of obstructing the Democrats and then bleat about how ineffective they are.

House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy made that attack during his filibuster of the vote on BBB:
But among his most audacious assertions was that Mr. Biden was to blame for the country’s failure to quell the pandemic.

Mr. McCarthy used this line of attack even as members of his own Republican Party have spent months flouting mask ordinances and blocking the president’s vaccine mandates, and the party’s base has undermined vaccination drives while rallying around those who refuse the vaccine. Intensive care units and morgues have been strained to capacity by the unvaccinated, a demographic dominated by those who voted last year for President Donald J. Trump.
Some Trumpies claim that Trump deserves the credit for COVID-19 vaccines. What do they have to say about all their fellow Trumpie anti-vaxxers?
As of mid-September, 90 percent of adult Democrats had been vaccinated, compared with 58 percent of adult Republicans.

Yet Mr. McCarthy, the House Republican leader, pressed his point: “I took President Biden at his word; I took him at his word when he said he was going to get Covid under control,” he declared in the dead of night. “Unfortunately, more Americans have died this year than last year under Covid.”

As cases surge once again in some parts of the country, Republicans have hit on a new line of attack: The president has failed on a central campaign promise, to tame the pandemic that his predecessor systematically downplayed. Democrats are incredulous, dismissing the strategy as another strand of spaghetti thrown at the wall.

White House spokesman Andrew Bates hit back hard: “If Covid-19 and inflation had lobbyists to help them kill more American jobs, Kevin McCarthy would be their favorite member of Congress,” he said. “He is actively undermining the fight against Covid, which is driving inflation.”

And Chris Taylor, a spokesman for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, called House Republicans “Covid’s biggest promoter” for “recklessly hand-waving lifesaving vaccines” and for promoting ivermectin, an antiparasitic drug falsely said to cure Covid-19.

“When Republicans abandoned the American people in the middle of a global crisis, House Democrats amped up vaccine distribution to crush the pandemic, reopened schools, small businesses and delivered a massive monthly middle-class tax cut,” Mr. Taylor said.
At least the Democrats are fighting back, and not apologizing to the Republicans.

Republicans respond that they are considering economic impacts, as if one has to choose.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Republican lawmakers are continuing to try to block vaccine mandates at the local, state and federal levels. ...

Later that month, Republican senators introduced legislation to prohibit federal agencies from requiring proof of vaccination. ...

As Mr. McCarthy faulted Mr. Biden for failing to stop the virus, he also criticized him for demanding people get vaccinated, even health care workers. Mr. Biden, he said, “fired workers who were working because they wouldn’t comply with his Covid mandates. These were the same people who were heroes a year before.”
Very misleading. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was *deliberately* misleading.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Interesting that you said in your own words "Biden needs to be held to account if this is true. " You made no comment on how NYT framed it. You are trying to deflect from your obvious contradiction. First you want to blame Biden for the 2021 cases being high and then you say that it's no bring problem.

I’m not blaming Biden for 2021 cases, he has no control over such things.

If you don't know that it's the anti-mask and anti-vax who account for the huge numbers of cases then you clearly are making no effort to educate yourself.

I’m plenty educated on it.
In light of your previous posts, you are making absolutely no sense at all.
 
Interesting that you said in your own words "Biden needs to be held to account if this is true. " You made no comment on how NYT framed it. You are trying to deflect from your obvious contradiction. First you want to blame Biden for the 2021 cases being high and then you say that it's no bring problem.

I’m not blaming Biden for 2021 cases, he has no control over such things.

If you don't know that it's the anti-mask and anti-vax who account for the huge numbers of cases then you clearly are making no effort to educate yourself.

I’m plenty educated on it.
You can't blame Biden for the deaths without also blaming him for the cases; one is a direct result of the other. They would not have died from COVID if they had not been infected with it.

Ruth
 

crazyfingers

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm one and I have no trouble explaining why. I'm also blaming Trump for most of the 2021 deaths.
Feel free to ask why.

Tom

Do you suppose TS would be able to explain why Trump is deserving of blame while Biden is not? I think that he could but will not because it would destroy his shtick.
 

crazyfingers

Super Moderator
Staff member

Just another story about how some businesses, especially retailers, are worried about the labor shortage and that if they required vaccination if it would be even harder to find employees. But I've frequently wondered the reverse. To what extent is it the case that people don't want to take job openings because the employer is NOT requiring vaccination?

If I was looking for a job, there is no way that I'd take one at a place where vaccination are not required. I'd take the job at the employer who does require vaccination.

And as the linked story point out, if you are considering going shopping, would you shop at a store that requires that employee vaccination or one that does not? I think that the answer is obvious.

I wish there was data to test these retailers assumptions that it would be harder to attract employees if they required vaccination. Maybe it would be easier. The answer probably depends on the number of Trumpers at the particular location. I'd still like to see real data than just accept that required vaccination actually would make hiring harder instead of easier.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Loren Pechtel said:
Flu usually only kills those already severely weakened. If the flu didn't get them chances are something else soon would.
1. Suppose I say "COVID usually only kills those fully vaccinated people who are already severely weakened.". Do you have evidence that the 'usually' is more so for the flu, and by a significant margin?
To put it in other words, do you have good evidence that the flu is less dangerous than COVID is to fully vaccinated people, and also by a margin that would justify radically different treatments.

Further, suppose you add face masks - good and properly used. Do you think COVID poses overall a significantly greater risk to fully vaccinated people when unvaccinated people are wearing good masks, than the flu?

We have seen that Covid precautions are very effective against the flu.
2. Even if they are severely weakened, it does not mean something else will get them - especially not if respiratory illnesses are not around.

It's not just other infections, the people too weak to fight off flu are generally close to death.

Loren Pechtel said:
No. Prior infection provides stronger immunity than the vaccine. The vaccine provides broader immunity. They are different things. If you get the virus your resistance to that strain is very high--but you don't have very good protection against other strains and thus reinfection is likely. This is why we have never had a coronavirus vaccine before--they're too good at evading. Only the vaccines based on targeting a reasonably stable part of the virus have worked.
1. Again, evidence?

It's been in the news repeatedly.

2. Delta makes up nearly all cases. If someone has stronger immunity against delta than they'd get with the best vaccines, it does not seem to make sense not to count them as immunized.

Those who have been infected with Delta are basically immune for now. There will be another variant in time, though.

3. Sinopharm's vaccine targets the whole virus. And it's not as good as viral vector vaccines or mRNA vaccines - though it's unclear which immunity's might last longer -, but it does work. It was made with the original strain. And it still works against Delta - else, we would not be opening up pretty much everything over here, while fatalities continue to fall.

Fatalities are falling because so many of the vulnerable have either survived or died.

Loren Pechtel said:
Be very wary of anything on medrxiv. That's a pre-print server, there is no verification of what's posted. The death cultists have been publishing all sorts of crap on there recently, elementary math errors, outright fabrication and the like, then they point to the articles as if they have scientific merit.
Well, I posted some evidence. I found no replies debunking it, and good reviews from other scientists. It's not conclusive, and I said it was not and the jury was still out. So, yes, I am careful enough.

Generally we don't have the skill to rebut medrxiv stuff. See what the experts say about it.

Loren Pechtel said:
The jury came back long ago, it's just the death cultists are trying to pull a 1/6.
Evidence?

Horse, water.

Loren Pechtel said:
IIRC it's about 50%. Useful at a population level, not much protection at the individual level.
Actually, I posted much earlier the results of a local study, which was far larger than the original trials.

Link (in Spanish, but you can use Google translate if you want): https://www.lanacion.com.ar/socieda...acunas-que-se-aplican-en-el-pais-nid01072021/

At least over here, it's 61.6% first dose, 84% after two (that was before Delta, but still vs. variants, mostly Gamma and Lambda at the time, even though it's based on the original strain; Delta now dominates, but things are getting better rather than worse). But that is the protection against symptomatic infection. It is far higher against serious cases including death.

Exactly--before Delta.

I think you may have been thinking about Sinovac's vaccine, which is also a dead-virus vaccine, but for some reason it's proven considerably less effective than Sinopharm's from what I read. Perhaps the people making the former messed up at some point.

Ok, I could have mixed them up. I'm talking about the killed-virus Chinese vaccine.
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
Loren Pechtel said:
We have seen that Covid precautions are very effective against the flu.
Yes, but that is not related to my question. Compare the following:

1. The risk posed by the flu in, say, 2015, to the general population.

2. The risk posed by COVID today, to the part of the general population that is fully vaccinated or has fully recovered from COVID.

Which risk is greater? Is it by a large margin?

If you think 2, and yes by a large margin, I would ask for evidence, and then to add masks to the equation in the COVID case.

Loren Pechtel said:
It's not just other infections, the people too weak to fight off flu are generally close to death.
You're not providing evidence of your claims. Flu viruses cause viral pneumonia.

Loren Pechtel said:
It's been in the news repeatedly.
You criticize the study I present because it's not been peer-reviewed yet, but your evidence has been in the news repeatedly. Well, I also saw otherwise in the news repeatedly.

Loren Pechtel said:
Those who have been infected with Delta are basically immune for now. There will be another variant in time, though.
And the same goes for vaccines. But you've not made your case.

Loren Pechtel said:
Fatalities are falling because so many of the vulnerable have either survived or died.
In part, yes, but that does not explain the studies, which compare the vaccinated with the unvaccinated.

Loren Pechtel said:
Generally we don't have the skill to rebut medrxiv stuff. See what the experts say about it.
Yes, I do see what the experts say about it. But you go with "on the news"? Do you have good evidence?

Loren Pechtel said:
Horse, water.
It's like talking to...people on the internet who defend their beliefs against their opponents, no matter what.

Loren Pechtel said:
Exactly--before Delta.
Before Delta, but after Alpha, Gamma and Lambda, and it still worked against those. So, it does work against variants - at least, against those that were around when the study was carried out. Do you think it would not work against Delta? Well, now Delta is here, and fatalities continue to fall, and as far as one can tell, it continues to work. Sure, you could say they fall for another reason, and it does not work anymore. But do you have evidence of that?

Loren Pechtel said:
Ok, I could have mixed them up. I'm talking about the killed-virus Chinese vaccine.
Which one of them?
Both Sinovac's and Sinopharm's vaccine are killed-virus Chinese vaccines. Both are less effective than other vaccines. But Sinopharm's seems good enough.
 

southernhybrid

Contributor
https://wapo.st/311Ii8u

The link is a gifted article from WaPo. It discusses the new variant that was discovered in South Africa.

As alarm over a new, possibly more infectious coronavirus variant spread through the world, France, Britain, Japan and Israel began to ban or order quarantines for air passengers arriving from the southern African region.

Susan Hopkins, the chief medical adviser to the U.K. Health and Security Agency, warned that the new variant found in southern Africa is the “most worrying we’ve seen.”
The European Union is expected to also propose a ban on air travel arriving from the southern Africa. European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen announced the proposal on Twitter Friday morning and said she is coordinating with the bloc’s 27 member states.
Britain acted quickly to shut down direct flights, even as the World Health Organization (WHO) warned that these travel bans may be premature.
The number of mutations of the new variant and their location have scientists on high alert, fearful that the changes could make the new strain more resistant to vaccines, more transmissible or cause more serious illness in more people.
 
Israel is taking the new variant very seriously.

" 'The new variant is more contagious, at a much quicker pace than the Delta strain,' Bennett said, adding that authorities are following data from South Africa to learn more about it, including whether it is resistant to existing vaccines."

To review-- once it was discovered in South Africa, people were looking at its properties and theorizing over whether it is more resistant to vaccines which was worrisome. NOW, it's shown to have moved on to a few other countries, such as Israel. They are implementing restrictions which you can read about in the link. This is because there is empirical evidence that the new variant is "more contagious" and "at a much quicker pace" than Delta.

With these findings being so new, perhaps there is some probability, the claims are exaggerated or due to something else--such as declining effectiveness of vaccinations--but you would expect all that analysis to have been done properly to understand teasing out multiple variables in a comparison of the new variant vs delta.
 

TomC

Veteran Member
And as the linked story point out, if you are considering going shopping, would you shop at a store that requires that employee vaccination or one that does not? I think that the answer is obvious.
Ironically, while I hate Wal-Mart they've been serious about protocols for a long time. They set up check points at the entrances to the store summer before last and required masks and hand sanitizer to shop. Employees were required to be vaccinated almost as soon as vaccination was available.

It's made me more likely to shop there.
Tom
 

T.G.G. Moogly

Formerly Joedad
The most common trait I find with anti-vaxxers is that they act butthurt, they've been cheated out of their just rewards - somehow - by the rest of the world. I really don't get the attitude but I've anecdotally been keeping track.

The second most common behavior is scientific illiteracy. It could very well be that the scientific illiteracy drives the more common butthurt trait, they don't understand science or scientific language and so react with confusion and anger.
 

Ford

Contributor
Marcus Lamb, who along with his wife runs the super-Jesus grifter Daystar Network, is reportedly in the ICU with COVID.

It should go without saying that he's using his network to spread misinformation about vaccines and promote quack "cures." Thoughts and prayers, folks. Thoughts and prayers.

Twitter
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
The most common trait I find with anti-vaxxers is that they act butthurt, they've been cheated out of their just rewards - somehow - by the rest of the world. I really don't get the attitude but I've anecdotally been keeping track.

The lockdown zealots and mask nazis get severely butt hurt when the plebs refuse to comply. The mere thought of someone not wearing a mask triggers them.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
It's interesting that strains of COVID-19 have been emerging that are more and more contagious. Seems like this virus was not originally adapted to live in our species, and that it's getting more and more adapted to doing so.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member

T.G.G. Moogly

Formerly Joedad
The most common trait I find with anti-vaxxers is that they act butthurt, they've been cheated out of their just rewards - somehow - by the rest of the world. I really don't get the attitude but I've anecdotally been keeping track.

The lockdown zealots and mask nazis get severely butt hurt when the plebs refuse to comply. The mere thought of someone not wearing a mask triggers them.
I personally have not witnessed the same reaction that for antivaxxers is typically filled with emotion. We had dinner yesterday with family. One participant said she would not attend if everyone had not been vaccinated. That was it, no gratuitous emotion, just common sense and drawing her line. Not surprisingly one of the would-be attendees was in the hospital with covid, not vaccinated, likely to be put on a ventilator.

So in my experience anyway your claim is highly dubious.
 

blastula

Contributor
find it interesting that in fact many of us now do see and realize that wearing masks when potentially sick is just a no-brainer, and when in close contact.

I admit I used to roll my eyes at the (mostly Asian) mask wearers pre-covid, but now realize they were actually doing a good deed for others, they were right all along.
 

Thomas II

Contributor
WHO is pressing the panic button and bumps the variant ahead of the line and now this is a "Variant of Concern". Went from click bait to umm... this could suck pretty quick. But it is still VERY early on.
I've been wearing masks from the start, and I'm fully vaccinated. This is serious. It's sad to see how people don't see it that way...
 

T.G.G. Moogly

Formerly Joedad
find it interesting that in fact many of us now do see and realize that wearing masks when potentially sick is just a no-brainer, and when in close contact.

I admit I used to roll my eyes at the (mostly Asian) mask wearers pre-covid, but now realize they were actually doing a good deed for others, they were right all along.
Yes! I felt the same way and then realized later what an ass I was. I never called anyone out just thought they were over reacting. Stupid me.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

Formerly Joedad
One of my siblings in her late 60's got covid, was very sick, went to the doc. She received monoclonal antibody treatment and is fine today. I'll have to ask her how she knew that monoclonal antibodies were okay but that vaccine was bad. :rolleyes:
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
The most common trait I find with anti-vaxxers is that they act butthurt, they've been cheated out of their just rewards - somehow - by the rest of the world. I really don't get the attitude but I've anecdotally been keeping track.

The lockdown zealots and mask nazis get severely butt hurt when the plebs refuse to comply. The mere thought of someone not wearing a mask triggers them.
I personally have not witnessed the same reaction that for antivaxxers is typically filled with emotion. We had dinner yesterday with family. One participant said she would not attend if everyone had not been vaccinated. That was it, no gratuitous emotion, just common sense and drawing her line. Not surprisingly one of the would-be attendees was in the hospital with covid, not vaccinated, likely to be put on a ventilator.

So in my experience anyway your claim is highly dubious.

Outside of social media, what is called the real world, most people don’t obsess about it. Wear a mask, don’t wear a mask, vaccinated not vaccinated, it doesn’t come up.
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
It's interesting that strains of COVID-19 have been emerging that are more and more contagious. Seems like this virus was not originally adapted to live in our species, and that it's getting more and more adapted to doing so.
Well, the virus may not have been originally adapted to live in any species, if it's of artificial origin.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
It's interesting that strains of COVID-19 have been emerging that are more and more contagious. Seems like this virus was not originally adapted to live in our species, and that it's getting more and more adapted to doing so.
Well, the virus may not have been originally adapted to live in any species, if it's of artificial origin.
And if my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle.

The Earth isn't flat; GMOs don't cause cancer; Aliens don't kidnap drunk Arizonans and didn't help the Egyptians to build the pyramids.

NASA landed a dozen men on the Moon between 1969 and 1972, Elvis Presley is dead, the twin towers collapsed due to being struck by airliners, and COVID-19 isn't of artificial origin.

Seriously, nobody with an internet connection or access to a decent library, and with a bare minimum of intelligence and interest in these topics should be in any doubt about the accuracy of any of these statements.
 

Angra Mainyu

Veteran Member
bilby said:
And if my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle.
Before you go on, let me warn you that it is very risky to challenge the board's dominant ideology/religion on that point. If you have not yet, I suggest you take a look at what happened in the other thread.

bilby said:
The Earth isn't flat; GMOs don't cause cancer; Aliens don't kidnap drunk Arizonans and didn't help the Egyptians to build the pyramids.
All true, and warranted.
bilby said:
NASA landed a dozen men on the Moon between 1969 and 1972, Elvis Presley is dead, the twin towers collapsed due to being struck by airliners, and COVID-19 isn't of artificial origin.
The first 3 statements are true and warranted. The fourth one is at least unwarranted.


bilby said:
Seriously, nobody with an internet connection or access to a decent library, and with a bare minimum of intelligence and interest in these topics should be in any doubt about the accuracy of any of these statements.
About the first 3, that is correct. About the fourth, that probably depends on how much they know. But if they're interested enough (not just a bare minimum), they should not have the belief that it is not of artificial origin.
 

crazyfingers

Super Moderator
Staff member
So we have Omicron. I expect that the vaccines will be less effective. Because people, mostly republicans, care so much about their own selfish-selves, they will continue to ignore masking and all precautions and deSantis wana-bee's will pass more laws to forbid precautions being taken. The Pandemic will only get worse than it has already been. Hundreds of thousands more people will die. Republicans will re-double their efforts to make sure that the virus spreads as much as possible so that they can blame Biden.

Through lies and idiocy and pure evil, pro-pandemic, pro-racism, anti-environment Republicans will take the house and senate. Then a Trumper will take the white house in 2025. Nothing will get better for the foreseeable future.
 

Elixir

Content Thief
So we have Omicron. I expect that the vaccines will be less effective. Because people, mostly republicans, care so much about their own selfish-selves, they will continue to ignore masking and all precautions and deSantis wana-bee's will pass more laws to forbid precautions being taken. The Pandemic will only get worse than it has already been. Hundreds of thousands more people will die. Republicans will re-double their efforts to make sure that the virus spreads as much as possible so that they can blame Biden.

Through lies and idiocy and pure evil, pro-pandemic, pro-racism, anti-environment Republicans will take the house and senate. Then a Trumper will take the white house in 2025. Nothing will get better for the foreseeable future.

Sure looks like that's what's on deck. I'm all in on the long shot:

* Republicans find themselves in a double-digit hole by October '22, due to their own mendacity and people fed up their bullshit
* They are only able to cheat their way into single digit deficits, lose 3 more seats in the Senate and a couple more in the House
* A massive litany of voter protection laws is passed in 2023
* A free and fair 2024 election puts the racists and Nazis well out of power for the foreseeable future
* I die happy (sometime later, hopefully)
 

crazyfingers

Super Moderator
Staff member
This was presented by HR at the company meeting where I currently work on October 6th this year. The claim is that the CDC forecasts a decline to next to nothing by March but the CDC doesn't make forecasts like this. The chart is not a CDC source.

The announcement was that the company plan would be for everyone to be required back in the office 3 days a week Nov and Dec and then 4 days a week starting January.

What would your reaction be if shown this slide?

Distortion.jpg
 
My reaction would not be very polite, I am afraid. The first thing I would point out is that this was not an official CDC projection as they don't make forecasts like this, as you pointed out. Then I would tell them that since I had been performing my job remotely for this extended period of time I would not know of any reason why I should not continue to do that. If they said I had no choice - I would turn in my notice. People who push things like this are not trustworthy in my opinion.

Ruth
 

barbos

Contributor
The thing which amuses me is that US media looks at US data and then declare near end of the pandemic, completely ignoring what is happening elsewhere - in Europe for example.
 

crazyfingers

Super Moderator
Staff member
My reaction would not be very polite, I am afraid. The first thing I would point out is that this was not an official CDC projection as they don't make forecasts like this, as you pointed out. Then I would tell them that since I had been performing my job remotely for this extended period of time I would not know of any reason why I should not continue to do that. If they said I had no choice - I would turn in my notice. People who push things like this are not trustworthy in my opinion.

Ruth
I didn't comment on the call but I did email the HR director and made the point that the CDC does not forecast and the chart was from an NPR story and even that story pointed out that it was created under the most optimistic assumption (nearly all 5+ year olds getting vaccinated, near universal mask use, no variant, etc) such that I regarded it as very suspect and extremely unlikely to happen. I noted that to assume no Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Years surge was next to preposterous.

I also noted that I would not be seen in the office for the foreseeable future. No ultimatum. Just a fact. I didn't get any push back.

I am sure the new CEO was behind this deceptive slide.

I have since given them my retirement date of Jan 31. But if they don't back off on the Dec company meeting I might give them my own push back. It is a big red flag that under the new CEO they are not to be trusted.

I really wonder how many people they THOUGHT they would fool. A good dozen of us forecast a market that depends a lot on how many people end up going back to the office and the #1 variable is what will covid do. So for 18 months we've all been watching covid trends way more closely than the HR guy or the new CEO.

Sure I'll be retired but I don't take very well to being lied to.
 
I am at a point where I will no longer work for a company/employer that I cannot trust, as I am past minimum retirement age too. So I understand perfectly your reasoning.

I can’t help but wonder how much of the employee shortfall is due to good workers refusing to work for an employer they don’t trust, or employers who don’t care how much their employees are endangered by working in unsafe conditions. I suspect this might be more the cause than the popular notions that vaccine mandates and stimulus money are the cause of not enough workers being available.

Ruth
 

crazyfingers

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am at a point where I will no longer work for a company/employer that I cannot trust, as I am past minimum retirement age too. So I understand perfectly your reasoning.

I can’t help but wonder how much of the employee shortfall is due to good workers refusing to work for an employer they don’t trust, or employers who don’t care how much their employees are endangered by working in unsafe conditions. I suspect this might be more the cause than the popular notions that vaccine mandates and stimulus money are the cause of not enough workers being available.

Ruth
I have questioned that too for quite a while now. Some industry claims that requiring vaccination will make it harder to fill open positions. I wonder if the lack of an employee vaccine requirement may be keeping even more people away. Even health care. If I was a health care worker i would NOT take a job where vaccination was not required
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
The thing which amuses me is that US media looks at US data and then declare near end of the pandemic, completely ignoring what is happening elsewhere - in Europe for example.
Really? I must say, I haven’t paid too much attention to the legacy media recently but when I happen to catch some news , for the most part they seem to paint a very bleak outlook. And as far as I can tell a number of European countries are managing just fine, the UK and Sweden stand out.
 

barbos

Contributor
The thing which amuses me is that US media looks at US data and then declare near end of the pandemic, completely ignoring what is happening elsewhere - in Europe for example.
Really? I must say, I haven’t paid too much attention to the legacy media recently but when I happen to catch some news , for the most part they seem to paint a very bleak outlook.
They started painting bleak picture now, when cases began rising again.
And as far as I can tell a number of European countries are managing just fine, the UK and Sweden stand out.
That's a good illustration of my point. It's irrelevant how well your country is doing if the rest of the world is not doing that well. And most of the Europe is doing badly.
 
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T.G.G. Moogly

Formerly Joedad
I am at a point where I will no longer work for a company/employer that I cannot trust, as I am past minimum retirement age too. So I understand perfectly your reasoning.

I can’t help but wonder how much of the employee shortfall is due to good workers refusing to work for an employer they don’t trust, or employers who don’t care how much their employees are endangered by working in unsafe conditions. I suspect this might be more the cause than the popular notions that vaccine mandates and stimulus money are the cause of not enough workers being available.

Ruth
I have questioned that too for quite a while now. Some industry claims that requiring vaccination will make it harder to fill open positions. I wonder if the lack of an employee vaccine requirement may be keeping even more people away. Even health care. If I was a health care worker i would NOT take a job where vaccination was not required
It's important to remember that vaccination isn't the primary issue with antivaxxers. They've all been vaccinated for other things. They all use seat belts and obey traffic signals, even drive on the right side of the road. Imagine that! Amazing! Their inability to recognize their antivaxxer idiocy is a symptom, the causes of which could fill every library on the planet. Having a rational, dispassionate discussion with one reveals that they lack the ability to recognize their inconsistent behavior. Maybe Dunning Kruger is the real reason. That's where I'd put my money.
 

Jarhyn

Contributor
It's interesting that strains of COVID-19 have been emerging that are more and more contagious. Seems like this virus was not originally adapted to live in our species, and that it's getting more and more adapted to doing so.
Well, the virus may not have been originally adapted to live in any species, if it's of artificial origin.
And if my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle.

The Earth isn't flat; GMOs don't cause cancer; Aliens don't kidnap drunk Arizonans and didn't help the Egyptians to build the pyramids.

NASA landed a dozen men on the Moon between 1969 and 1972, Elvis Presley is dead, the twin towers collapsed due to being struck by airliners, and COVID-19 isn't of artificial origin.

Seriously, nobody with an internet connection or access to a decent library, and with a bare minimum of intelligence and interest in these topics should be in any doubt about the accuracy of any of these statements.
No, she's still your aunt. I mean shit, my husband doesn't have one and he's still an uncle!

But everything else you wrote is spot on.
 
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