# Covid-19 miscellany

#### Elixir

It should be viewed as a civic duty to be vaccinated

Little kids don’t have a choice. Doesn’t matter if they have a fear of needles or if they “feel fine”. They get a whole raft of vaccines. Yeah, they sometimes cry, but they get over it in a few minutes.

But idiot crybaby “adults” have the option to be crybabies and idiots, to whine about their “freedum”, to go around endangering others and to loudly defend their cowardice with lies and conspiracy theories.

I swear, most of this so called “hesitancy” is just relic fear of shots. They probably don’t remember crying the last time they were vaccinated, and so don’t even realize why they are so viscerally opposed to getting the vaccine.

#### Ruth Harris

##### Token Christian
Because it's never been done before is a poor reason to not do something now.
This

Metaphor reminds me of just about every Baptist I have ever known: "But we have never done it that way before!" I can't help but wonder if he has Baptists in his background

Ruth

#### repoman

##### Contributor

Why was a 26 year old healthy athlete getting a booster shot to begin with?

#### Jarhyn

##### Wizard
Explain to me why COVID19 vaccination is so horrifically intrusive?
We've been through this a dozen times. If you cannot see how forcing a medical procedure on unconsenting adults is not 'horrifically intrusive', I cannot change your mind. You are simply somebody who is willing to use the State to impose her authoritarian will on others.
Honestly, the idea of the Government forcing medical procedures on people is about as abhorrent as people refusing vaccinations from a disease that has killed nearly 1 million people in the last couple of years.
World wide, it’s more than 5.5 million.

Other things I have no problem with:

Mandatory childhood vaccines with only medical exemptions. I saw a 5 year old leukemia patient nearly die from chicken pox. He couldn’t be vaccinated. Healthy kids can be vaccinated.

Speed limits
Seat belt limits
Safety laws that govern the manufacture of automobiles
Laws regulating the lead content of gasoline
Laws mandating environmental protection in automobiles, and any other manufacturing

FDA regulations mandating food and drug safety

Rules, regulations and standards regulating the building of homes and other building

And a bunch of other health and safety measures that help ensure the health and safety of all, including fuck witted libertarians who just care about freedom—theirs, not someone else’s.
See, this is where libertarians jump off the deep end. They want "self actualization" but they don't care about "mutually compatible". They want what they want at the necessary expense of others, even when others do not ever otherwise and certainly do not consent to play that game.

There is insanity in the double-standard, a contradiction.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
So you support plague rats running around killing others and creating new and quite possibly more deadly variants.
"Running around killing others".

Maybe we can put the unvaccinated together in one place where they can't hurt the god-fearing. Maybe concentrate them together for logistical ease. I think we should withhold their property too because they are creating a burden on the righteous.
As in killing, fucking up supply chains, slowing down the economy, stuffing ERs, making life hell for Doctors, Nurses....

I mean, it was great people got to spend T-Day and Xmas 2020 together in the states, but was that really worth 250,000 people dying?
Unvaccinated people are not killing others. But I understand the rhetoric. If you want to demonise them and persecute them, it is helpful to accuse them of crimes.
There is no demonization. The above are the existing consequences of their actions. Many ERs in the US are stuffed with unvaccinated Covid-19 patients who are inhibiting access for health care by people suffering from other emergencies. Our supply chain and production are being inhibited by Covid related vacancies.

That isn't demonization, that is logistical truth. You really need to learn the difference between the two.

#### crazyfingers

##### Supermagnon
Staff member
In other words, the US has never forced a vaccine on its entire adult population before.

Can you name another situation in history where:

1 A pandemic has inundated an entire continent and the world
2 A vaccine exists
3 A huge share of the population refuses to vaccinate due to nonsense reasons thus creating the greatest threat of spread and mutation

So just because we were not in this situation before is no argument for what to do now.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
And a bunch of other health and safety measures that help ensure the health and safety of all, including fuck witted libertarians who just care about freedom—theirs, not someone else’s.
Jacobson vs. Massachusetts, about the state coercing vaccination against smallpox, the decision said that the state is allowed to defend itself. And while the forced vaccination is a burden, one must suffer some burdens in order to live in a society. Individual liberty is not absolute.

#### Jarhyn

##### Wizard
In other words, the US has never forced a vaccine on its entire adult population before.

Can you name another situation in history where:

1 A pandemic has inundated an entire continent and the world
2 A vaccine exists
3 A huge share of the population refuses to vaccinate due to nonsense reasons thus creating the greatest threat of spread and mutation

So just because we were not in this situation before is no argument for what to do now.
This is, fundamentally, the problem with conservative thought in general: it can't handle new situations well and it only handles old situations as badly as the first time it handled them when it first encountered it, which were new, and not handled well

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's go Brandon!
In other words, the US has never forced a vaccine on its entire adult population before.

Can you name another situation in history where:

1 A pandemic has inundated an entire continent and the world
2 A vaccine exists
3 A huge share of the population refuses to vaccinate due to nonsense reasons thus creating the greatest threat of spread and mutation

So just because we were not in this situation before is no argument for what to do now.

"A vaccine exists" ? Not hardly. The "vaccine" does not appear to be as effective as was originally touted. The "vaccine" is not stopping the spread. Vaccinated people are getting infected and these people are capable of spreading it to others. The "vaccine" is a bit of bust. However, it seems the majority of people (70%+?) are willing to go along with getting the vaccine on the premise that it keeps the symptoms from being severe.

So we get to the people who don't want to take a vaccine, a hodge podge of conspiracy theorists, religious nuts and informed people who feel they don't need a quarterly "vaccine" shot. These people are a small minority and pose no threat to anyone. The hyperbole of "plague rats" running around killing people is just online bs.

Mutations, so what? I'd be more worried about what idiocy escapes a lab or a wet market than what happens in the natural world.

So basically it boils down to left wing authoritarians getting their jollies from forcing people to do what the state wants. Lockdown, masks and vaccines.

It's over fella.

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#### Jarhyn

##### Wizard
I find it interesting people are more afraid of what researchers do I labs than what happens in the real world.

Botulism toxin came from something "in the real world".

The real world IS a lab, one without ethics boards or concerned researchers, nor walls, nor freezers, nor hazmat suits everywhere, and it has spawned horrors that we don't have the imagination to dream of ourselves.

#### Toni

##### Contributor

Why was a 26 year old healthy athlete getting a booster shot to begin with?

Because getting COVID would have put her in much greater danger of long term adverse health effects.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
In other words, the US has never forced a vaccine on its entire adult population before.

Can you name another situation in history where:

1 A pandemic has inundated an entire continent and the world
2 A vaccine exists
3 A huge share of the population refuses to vaccinate due to nonsense reasons thus creating the greatest threat of spread and mutation

So just because we were not in this situation before is no argument for what to do now.

"A vaccine exists" ? Not hardly. The "vaccine" does not appear to be as effective as was originally touted. The "vaccine" is not stopping the spread. Vaccinated people are getting infected and these people are capable of spreading it to others. The "vaccine" is a bit of bust. However, it seems the majority of people (70%+?) are willing to go along with getting the vaccine on the premise that it keeps the symptoms from being severe.

So we get to the people who don't want to take a vaccine, a hodge podge of conspiracy theorists, religious nuts and informed people who feel they don't need a quarterly "vaccine" shot. These people are a small minority and pose no threat to anyone. The hyperbole of "plague rats" running around killing people is just online bs.

Mutations, so what? I'd be more worried about what idiocy escapes a lab or a wet market than what happens in the natural world.

So basically it boils down to left wing authoritarians getting their jollies from forcing people to do what the state wants. Lockdown, masks and vaccines.

It's over fella.
Actually, the vaccines are highly effective. ALL vaccines have some degree of breakthrough infections. But vaccination mitigates the severity of the disease, whichever disease/vaccination you are talking about.

Unfortunately, there exist sufficient idiots who believed Trump and similar despots who claimed that vaccination was bad, and that COVID was just like the flu and would disappear in the summer and that you could cure it with bleach, ivermectin, and lights up your anus--while getting state of the art treatment for themselves when they became infected, and while continuing to hold parties and other super spreader events, sometimes killing colleagues (not that Trump would claim a black man as a colleague) and then secretly getting vaccinated themselves. In fact, they did such a good job that now, if they try to urge their throngs of admirers to get vaccinated, they get BOOED.

But all that COVID denial has been very effective at helping rapidly generate numerous variants which are better at evading the protection that vaccination gives.

All of which has been explained to you dozens and dozens of times.

In fact, you say you've been vaccinated yourself. So why are you crabbing about other people doing their best to protect themselves and anyone who comes into contact with them?

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
In other words, the US has never forced a vaccine on its entire adult population before.

Can you name another situation in history where:

1 A pandemic has inundated an entire continent and the world
2 A vaccine exists
3 A huge share of the population refuses to vaccinate due to nonsense reasons thus creating the greatest threat of spread and mutation

So just because we were not in this situation before is no argument for what to do now.

"A vaccine exists" ? Not hardly. The "vaccine" does not appear to be as effective as was originally touted. The "vaccine" is not stopping the spread. Vaccinated people are getting infected and these people are capable of spreading it to others. The "vaccine" is a bit of bust. However, it seems the majority of people (70%+?) are willing to go along with getting the vaccine on the premise that it keeps the symptoms from being severe.

So we get to the people who don't want to take a vaccine, a hodge podge of conspiracy theorists, religious nuts and informed people who feel they don't need a quarterly "vaccine" shot. These people are a small minority and pose no threat to anyone. The hyperbole of "plague rats" running around killing people is just online bs.
Actually, plague rats got us Alpha. So, there is that.
Mutations, so what?
You keep your pantie bunching over immunity. The vaccine appeared to stop transmission of the original and alpha variants. So there is that. Then the plague rats helped spread the virus more, which helped spread it globally, and then we got a variant that had less trouble evading immunity.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's go Brandon!
Actually, the vaccines are highly effective. ALL vaccines have some degree of breakthrough infections. But vaccination mitigates the severity of the disease, whichever disease/vaccination you are talking about.

They seem effective at keeping the symptoms down and therefore people out of the health system is what I said. What it is not so effective at is preventing the vaccinated from getting the virus and in turn spreading it. Which was a a big selling point for getting us back to normal. Are we back to normal? No.

Unfortunately, there exist sufficient idiots who believed Trump {snip}

And there are normal people who have determined for various reasons (young, fit, healthy, already been infected etc) that the vaccine is not necessary for them. Not everyone that declines the "vaccine" is the fruit loop you depict.

But all that COVID denial has been very effective at helping rapidly generate numerous variants which are better at evading the protection that vaccination gives.

"Covid denial"?

All of which has been explained to you dozens and dozens of times.

No, I have been given lectures about things I never said.

In fact, you say you've been vaccinated yourself. So why are you crabbing about other people doing their best to protect themselves and anyone who comes into contact with them?

I'm "crabbing" about government mandates that force people to do something that is not necessary.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
Actually, the vaccines are highly effective. ALL vaccines have some degree of breakthrough infections. But vaccination mitigates the severity of the disease, whichever disease/vaccination you are talking about.

They seem effective at keeping the symptoms down and therefore people out of the health system is what I said. What it is not so effective at is preventing the vaccinated from getting the virus and in turn spreading it. Which was a a big selling point for getting us back to normal. Are we back to normal? No.

Unfortunately, there exist sufficient idiots who believed Trump {snip}

And there are normal people who have determined for various reasons (young, fit, healthy, already been infected etc) that the vaccine is not necessary for them. Not everyone that declines the "vaccine" is the fruit loop you depict.

But all that COVID denial has been very effective at helping rapidly generate numerous variants which are better at evading the protection that vaccination gives.

"Covid denial"?

All of which has been explained to you dozens and dozens of times.

No, I have been given lectures about things I never said.

In fact, you say you've been vaccinated yourself. So why are you crabbing about other people doing their best to protect themselves and anyone who comes into contact with them?

I'm "crabbing" about government mandates that force people to do something that is not necessary.
You are correct that the current vaccines are less effective at preventing OMICRON.

I understand that some people have decided that they are young enough and fit enough to 'not need' the vaccine. I know such who have died. I am grateful that an old friend who DID get COVID listened to her pastor's wife( who is a pharmacist) and got vaccinated as soon as she was able to after her recovery. People sometimes make stupid mistakes and it's really awful when it affects them adversely. I get it that some people can only learn through suffering. Unfortunately, their decisions do not affect only them, or only their families but all of us.

If vaccination isn't 'necessary' why are you vaccinated?

How is COVID19 vaccination different than MMR, and other vaccines that are routinely given to actual babies, not the overgrown think they're a cowboy kind? Seriously. HOW is this different?????

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's go Brandon!
You are correct that the current vaccines are less effective at preventing OMICRON.

Omicron, a virus that seems to be pretty much as harmless as the common cold and is the dominant strain? Do we really need to frog march people to the vaccine stations to take a "vaccine" against a virus that doesn't work against Omicron? Do we really need to sack people from their jobs for not taking a a vaccine that doesn't really work against he omicron strain?

I understand that some people have decided that they are young enough and fit enough to 'not need' the vaccine. {snip}

Then leave these people be. The vast majority of them will be fine.

If vaccination isn't 'necessary' why are you vaccinated?

Because I felt it was a good choice for me should I catch the virus it would keep the symptoms down. I don't believe my life would be threatened as I am in pretty good health but since the vaccine was available I thought I would take advantage of it. But there were some side effects from the vaccine that were pretty uncomfortable.

How is COVID19 vaccination different than MMR, and other vaccines that are routinely given to actual babies, not the overgrown think they're a cowboy kind? Seriously. HOW is this different?????

These vaccines have had a long history and tested and are proven effective. The covid "vaccine", not so much.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
You are correct that the current vaccines are less effective at preventing OMICRON.

Omicron, a virus that seems to be pretty much as harmless as the common cold and is the dominant strain? Do we really need to frog march people to the vaccine stations to take a "vaccine" against a virus that doesn't work against Omicron? Do we really need to sack people from their jobs for not taking a a vaccine that doesn't really work against he omicron strain?

I understand that some people have decided that they are young enough and fit enough to 'not need' the vaccine. {snip}

Then leave these people be. The vast majority of them will be fine.

If vaccination isn't 'necessary' why are you vaccinated?

Because I felt it was a good choice for me should I catch the virus it would keep the symptoms down. I don't believe my life would be threatened as I am in pretty good health but since the vaccine was available I thought I would take advantage of it. But there were some side effects from the vaccine that were pretty uncomfortable.

How is COVID19 vaccination different than MMR, and other vaccines that are routinely given to actual babies, not the overgrown think they're a cowboy kind? Seriously. HOW is this different?????

These vaccines have had a long history and tested and are proven effective. The covid "vaccine", not so much.
Really? Omicron is as harmless as the common cold? How many people do you know hospitalized with the common cold?
Over 800 thousand DEATHS are nothing to you, I guess. Those are COVID deaths, and do not include those who die because they cannot get adequate care because hospitals and emergency rooms are full and are turning away ambulances. Not to mention those with long term negative health effects--that are severe. Of course, some of those deaths and some of those with long term damage are children but hey, it's not you so who cares, right?

As for 'leaving alone those who choose not to be vaccinated:' I would love to leave them alone. Let them stay home, out of stores and restaurants and movie theaters and other businesses. Hell, let's put them all in Idaho. I understand anything goes in Idaho.

As for the long history: Well, sure, some of those vaccines have had a long history. I am personally grateful that MY kids were able to be vaccinated against childhood illnesses that people of my generation suffered through and sometimes died from or had other serious long term or permanent ill effects. I nearly died of one myself. I was THRILLED to vaccinate my kids.

But go ahead and let's examine this history of COVID19 vaccines:

Oh, and let's look at Hep B vaccinations: https://ftp.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/hepatitis-and-hepatitis-b

mRNA vaccines are not nearly as 'new' as you seem to think they are. And they are not 'experimental.'

#### T.G.G. Moogly

And a bunch of other health and safety measures that help ensure the health and safety of all, including fuck witted libertarians who just care about freedom—theirs, not someone else’s.
The more I experience their gibberish the more apparent it becomes they are paranoid. They sure ain't out to protect anyone's freeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's go Brandon!
Really? Omicron is as harmless as the common cold?{snip}

For the vast majority of people that contract it, yes. For some people it is more serious but there's not much can be done about that.

As for 'leaving alone those who choose not to be vaccinated:' I would love to leave them alone. Let them stay home, out of stores and restaurants and movie theaters and other businesses. Hell, let's put them all in Idaho. I understand anything goes in Idaho.

Nah, you stay home if you are worried about it. Besides, you are vaccinated right? You wear a mask right? So you're good.

Also, be aware that vaccinated people do contract the virus and can spread it. It is obvious to me that you bang on about the unvaccinated because you have an authoritarian streak.

mRNA vaccines are not nearly as 'new' as you seem to think they are. And they are not 'experimental.'

Has the FDA approved this covid vaccine yet or is it still being used under emergency rules? I can't remember.

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#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
And a bunch of other health and safety measures that help ensure the health and safety of all, including fuck witted libertarians who just care about freedom—theirs, not someone else’s.
The more I experience their gibberish the more apparent it becomes they are paranoid. They sure ain't out to protect anyone's freeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom.
Yeah, masks / distance / vaccines are crazy... "left wing authoritarians getting their jollies from forcing people to do what the state wants" is totally not paranoid.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's go Brandon!
78% of Democratic voters support the Biden administration’s COVID-19 vaccine mandate plan
75% of likely Democratic voters have a favorable opinion of Dr. Fauci
59% of Democratic voters would favor a government policy requiring that citizens remain confined to their homes at all times, except for emergencies, if they refuse to get a COVID-19 vaccine
55% of Democratic voters would support a proposal for federal or state governments to fine Americans who choose not to get a COVID-19 vaccine
48% of Democratic voters think federal and state governments should be able to fine or imprison individuals who publicly question the efficacy of the existing COVID-19 vaccines on social media, television, radio, or in online or digital publications
47% of Democrats favor governments using digital devices to track unvaccinated people to ensure that they are quarantined or socially distancing from others
45% of Democrats would favor governments requiring citizens to temporarily live in designated facilities or locations if they refuse to get a COVID-19 vaccine
29% of Democratic voters would support temporarily removing parents’ custody of their children if parents refuse to take the COVID-19 vaccine

Rasmussen

Remember, if you oppose that, it is because you are a "Fascist".

And according to the Canada PM, probably a racist and a misogynist too.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's go Brandon!
It should be viewed as a civic duty to be vaccinated.

Yeah, just like jury duty. Everyone loves that.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
It should be viewed as a civic duty to be vaccinated.

Yeah, just like jury duty. Everyone loves that.
So your thesis is that nobody should ever have to do things they don't enjoy, no matter how beneficial those things might be?

Getting vaccinated isn't fun. Doing jury duty isn't fun. Paying taxes isn't fun. Storming the beaches on D-Day wasn't, according to those who did it, a joy filled extravaganza of laughter and entertainment.

Most people over the age of five (outside California) recognise that some things that are no fun at all nevertheless need to be done - and not only by people who aren't them.

#### repoman

##### Contributor
Can someone comment on whether or not there might be some level of "original antigenic sin" with using a two year old recipe for the newer omicron strains?

This video from 53:07 and forward...

Risk myocarditis for an outdated vaccine booster for young healthy people?

Risk/Benefit anyone?

#### Metaphor

##### Sjajna Zvijezda
Because it's never been done before is a poor reason to not do something now. Can you imagine what we wouldn't have if that philosophy was carried out elsewhere in society?
I did not say that because it had never been done before it shouldn't be done now. I was addressing Toni's implication that it had been done before.

#### Metaphor

##### Sjajna Zvijezda
This

Metaphor reminds me of just about every Baptist I have ever known: "But we have never done it that way before!" I can't help but wonder if he has Baptists in his background
"This" what?

Show me where I made the argument "it's never been done before so we shouldn't do it".

You can't show me because I did not do that. I simply pushed back on Toni's implication that mass compulsory vaccinations for all unconsenting adults was something the US gov't had done before.

#### Metaphor

##### Sjajna Zvijezda
In other words, the US has never forced a vaccine on its entire adult population before.

Can you name another situation in history where:

1 A pandemic has inundated an entire continent and the world
2 A vaccine exists
3 A huge share of the population refuses to vaccinate due to nonsense reasons thus creating the greatest threat of spread and mutation

So just because we were not in this situation before is no argument for what to do now.
For fuck's sake, and this is the last time I am going to repeat this, I did not make the argument 'it has never been done before so we shouldn't do it now'. You can't show me where I made that argument because I did not make that argument. I pushed back on Toni's implied claim that a vaccine mandate on all unconsenting adults was something that had already happened in history, or is not materially different to vaccines in certain employment roles or for minors.

#### Metaphor

##### Sjajna Zvijezda
That isn't demonization, that is logistical truth. You really need to learn the difference between the two.
It is demonisation. Fat people use an extraordinary amount of healthcare resources, but nobody is forcing fat people to do something against their will. Also, it's some people with COVID that are using resources, not unvaccinated people. There are unvaccinated people who will never get COVID.

But, I can see why universal health care in the US will never be a reality. The absolute malice of some people--"we should dance on the graves of the unvaccinated"--is a sure sign there is no public will to help ideological enemies.

### Hana Horka: Czech singer dies after catching Covid intentionally​

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60050996
Although she was unvaccinated, Jan Rek stressed that his mother did not believe in some of the more bizarre conspiracy theories about Covid vaccines.

"Her philosophy was that she was more OK with the idea of catching Covid than getting vaccinated. Not that we would get microchipped or anything like that," he said.
There was no point in trying to discuss the issue with her as it would just get too emotional, he added. Instead, he hoped that by telling his story he could convince others to get vaccinated.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
In other words, the US has never forced a vaccine on its entire adult population before.

Can you name another situation in history where:

1 A pandemic has inundated an entire continent and the world
2 A vaccine exists
3 A huge share of the population refuses to vaccinate due to nonsense reasons thus creating the greatest threat of spread and mutation

So just because we were not in this situation before is no argument for what to do now.
For fuck's sake, and this is the last time I am going to repeat this, I did not make the argument 'it has never been done before so we shouldn't do it now'. You can't show me where I made that argument because I did not make that argument. I pushed back on Toni's implied claim that a vaccine mandate on all unconsenting adults was something that had already happened in history, or is not materially different to vaccines in certain employment roles or for minors.
It has.

** AUSTRIA: all over 14s from February 2022; holdouts can be fined up to 3,600 euros every 3 months read more

** ECUADOR: obligatory, except for people who have a relevant medical condition or incompatibility read more

** GERMANY: plans to make mandatory for all adults from February read more

** INDONESIA: all adults, with fines or refusal of social assistance or government services for the unvaccinated.

** TAJIKISTAN: all over 18s

** TURKMENISTAN: all over 18s

#### Metaphor

##### Sjajna Zvijezda
In other words, the US has never forced a vaccine on its entire adult population before.

Can you name another situation in history where:

1 A pandemic has inundated an entire continent and the world
2 A vaccine exists
3 A huge share of the population refuses to vaccinate due to nonsense reasons thus creating the greatest threat of spread and mutation

So just because we were not in this situation before is no argument for what to do now.
For fuck's sake, and this is the last time I am going to repeat this, I did not make the argument 'it has never been done before so we shouldn't do it now'. You can't show me where I made that argument because I did not make that argument. I pushed back on Toni's implied claim that a vaccine mandate on all unconsenting adults was something that had already happened in history, or is not materially different to vaccines in certain employment roles or for minors.
It has.

** AUSTRIA: all over 14s from February 2022; holdouts can be fined up to 3,600 euros every 3 months read more

** ECUADOR: obligatory, except for people who have a relevant medical condition or incompatibility read more

** GERMANY: plans to make mandatory for all adults from February read more

** INDONESIA: all adults, with fines or refusal of social assistance or government services for the unvaccinated.

** TAJIKISTAN: all over 18s

** TURKMENISTAN: all over 18s
So if one or all of these proposals pass, then yes, it looks like Austria and Germany might be the first to make COVID-19 vaccinations compulsory for all adults.

The governments of those countries are violating the human rights of their citizens.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
The governments unvaccinated of those countries are violating the human rights of their citizens.
FTFY

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
In other words, the US has never forced a vaccine on its entire adult population before.

Can you name another situation in history where:

1 A pandemic has inundated an entire continent and the world
2 A vaccine exists
3 A huge share of the population refuses to vaccinate due to nonsense reasons thus creating the greatest threat of spread and mutation

So just because we were not in this situation before is no argument for what to do now.
For fuck's sake, and this is the last time I am going to repeat this, I did not make the argument 'it has never been done before so we shouldn't do it now'. You can't show me where I made that argument because I did not make that argument. I pushed back on Toni's implied claim that a vaccine mandate on all unconsenting adults was something that had already happened in history, or is not materially different to vaccines in certain employment roles or for minors.
It has.

** AUSTRIA: all over 14s from February 2022; holdouts can be fined up to 3,600 euros every 3 months read more

** ECUADOR: obligatory, except for people who have a relevant medical condition or incompatibility read more

** GERMANY: plans to make mandatory for all adults from February read more

** INDONESIA: all adults, with fines or refusal of social assistance or government services for the unvaccinated.

** TAJIKISTAN: all over 18s

** TURKMENISTAN: all over 18s
So if one or all of these proposals pass, then yes, it looks like Austria and Germany might be the first to make COVID-19 vaccinations compulsory for all adults.
Most of those have already passed.

#### Metaphor

##### Sjajna Zvijezda
In other words, the US has never forced a vaccine on its entire adult population before.

Can you name another situation in history where:

1 A pandemic has inundated an entire continent and the world
2 A vaccine exists
3 A huge share of the population refuses to vaccinate due to nonsense reasons thus creating the greatest threat of spread and mutation

So just because we were not in this situation before is no argument for what to do now.
For fuck's sake, and this is the last time I am going to repeat this, I did not make the argument 'it has never been done before so we shouldn't do it now'. You can't show me where I made that argument because I did not make that argument. I pushed back on Toni's implied claim that a vaccine mandate on all unconsenting adults was something that had already happened in history, or is not materially different to vaccines in certain employment roles or for minors.
It has.

** AUSTRIA: all over 14s from February 2022; holdouts can be fined up to 3,600 euros every 3 months read more

** ECUADOR: obligatory, except for people who have a relevant medical condition or incompatibility read more

** GERMANY: plans to make mandatory for all adults from February read more

** INDONESIA: all adults, with fines or refusal of social assistance or government services for the unvaccinated.

** TAJIKISTAN: all over 18s

** TURKMENISTAN: all over 18s
So if one or all of these proposals pass, then yes, it looks like Austria and Germany might be the first to make COVID-19 vaccinations compulsory for all adults.
Most of those have already passed.
All of them human rights luminaries.

#### Rhea

##### Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member

The moderation team is no longer tolerating deceptive titles and editing that portray the opposite of the link (in either direction). It amounts to a bait-and-switch link and is a violation of the TOU.

The misinformation post and its replies have been moved to ~Elsewhere

All users should note this policy.

#### Metaphor

##### Sjajna Zvijezda
In good news, effective COVID treatments are being discovered and developed:

A £15 blood-thinning drug could help Covid patients and prevent lung damage, a study suggested today.

Researchers based in the UK and Australia found heparin improved oxygen levels of hospitalised patients by 70 per cent.

The drug is unique because of its combination of anti-viral, anti-inflammatory and anti-coagulant effects, experts said.

Heparin — which is found in drugs such as Lovenox — is already used in hospitals to treat infected Brits suffering clots. It is usually injected but doctors found it was safe and effective for Covid patients when inhaled.

Experts believe the drug works by preventing the virus multiplying in the lungs, while its anti-inflammatory properties stop the immune system overreacting.

Pfizer's Covid pill showed effectiveness against the Omicron variant in lab tests.

The company revealed data showing that its pill Paxlovid showed promise in a laboratory environment in three tests.
Nirmatrelvir, the drug's active ingredient, showed effectiveness is neutralising the virus in the trials that are still pending peer review.
The highly mutated Omicron variant has displayed the ability to bypass vaccines and Covid treatments since it first emerged last year.
Pharmaceutical companies have been working to tweak vaccines and treatments to be effective against the new mutant strain.
Dr Michael Dolsten, Pfizer's chief science officer, said: 'We specifically designed Paxlovid to retain its activity across coronaviruses, as well as current variants of concern with predominantly spike protein mutations.'
He added that the antiviral pill showed the ability to cut the risk of hospitalisation or death from the virus by 90 percent if taken early in infection.
Professor Frank van Haren, study author from the Australian National University, said: 'This drug is already available in hospitals all over the world.

'It is a very inexpensive drug. If it is as effective as our early results suggest, it could have a major impact in our fight against Covid.'

#### repoman

##### Contributor
This lecture is a bit of a slog but it mentions heparin a few times

Also, what is the proof that omicron evades treatments other than monoclonal antibodies?

Farid Jalali has a good twitter account. Even though I think he is being too dire (biased by being in a hospital and ignoring all the people not going there), I highly respect his model of what covid can do to the unlucky ones where it flips all the wrong switches.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
I've actually witnessed the tests. I witnessed a volunteer breathing normal in a chamber. Then an engineer used a laser-based particle analysis to show how far his air particles were being ejected.
Who owned the lasers? Were they Jewish lasers? Follow the money.

Huh? The Jews have space lasers. He's not an astronaut, he couldn't have been watching space lasers, thus why talk about Jews?
Do they only own the lasers once they get into space? I really don't know how the laser ownership process works.
Satellites are not normally in an operational configuration until they have been boosted into space--while the deployment on the JWST is far longer than normal there normally is a deployment procedure. Thus I would not expect anyone to be in a position to watch a Jewish space laser while on Earth.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Can you explain to me why vaccine mandates for COVID 19 are bad? Please compare and contrast with mandated vaccines that all children receive routinely, and must document that they have received before attending day care, preschool, K-12 school or universities? Other vaccines mandated by the armed forces for all its military personnel? Routine vaccines such as the usual childhood vaccines, influenza, hepatitis A and B, and annual influenza vaccines mandated for health care workers and day care workers and nursing home personnel?
Tell me, has the US government forced a vaccine on its entire adult population before?

Don't know about the US but it's certainly been done at the state level:

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
There is no demonization. The above are the existing consequences of their actions. Many ERs in the US are stuffed with unvaccinated Covid-19 patients who are inhibiting access for health care by people suffering from other emergencies. Our supply chain and production are being inhibited by Covid related vacancies.

That isn't demonization, that is logistical truth. You really need to learn the difference between the two.

Many?! Not all?? The hospitals are running far above 100% and have been for some time. What's happening is patients are receiving a lower level of care than they should--being sent home when they should be in a bed, being in a bed when they should be in the ICU, ICUs operating far below what is considered safe staffing levels.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
mRNA vaccines are not nearly as 'new' as you seem to think they are. And they are not 'experimental.'

Has the FDA approved this covid vaccine yet or is it still being used under emergency rules? I can't remember.
How do you consider yourself qualified to have a position on something you have so little knowledge of?

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Risk myocarditis for an outdated vaccine booster for young healthy people?

Risk/Benefit anyone?
The risk seems to be minimal. If you get it it goes away on it's own soon, it's not like typical myocarditis.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
In good news, effective COVID treatments are being discovered and developed:

Huh? Blood thinners have been used against Covid for quite a while--and they're very much a double-edged sword because you're trying to navigate between clotting out and bleeding out and sometimes there's no space in between.

#### Swammerdami

Staff member
And there are normal people who have determined for various reasons (young, fit, healthy, already been infected etc) that the vaccine is not necessary for them. Not everyone that declines the "vaccine" is the fruit loop you depict.
"Fruit loops"? Are they people that need to put the noun 'vaccine' in quotes?

What about "normal people" who can eschew a seat-belt or drive while drunk for various reasons (holds liquor well, drives slowly, isn't worried about dying)? Are they being abused by the liberals?

I'm "crabbing" about government mandates that force people to do something that is not necessary.
I ran a red light once where stopping was not necessary, and got a $75 ticket. I want my money back! jab #### Metaphor ##### Sjajna Zvijezda In good news, effective COVID treatments are being discovered and developed: Huh? Blood thinners have been used against Covid for quite a while--and they're very much a double-edged sword because you're trying to navigate between clotting out and bleeding out and sometimes there's no space in between. Do you have a psychological compulsion to comment on everything? The story was 8 hours old when I posted it. It was the results of a newly published study. #### Metaphor ##### Sjajna Zvijezda There is no demonization. The above are the existing consequences of their actions. Many ERs in the US are stuffed with unvaccinated Covid-19 patients who are inhibiting access for health care by people suffering from other emergencies. Our supply chain and production are being inhibited by Covid related vacancies. That isn't demonization, that is logistical truth. You really need to learn the difference between the two. Many?! Not all?? The hospitals are running far above 100% and have been for some time. What's happening is patients are receiving a lower level of care than they should--being sent home when they should be in a bed, being in a bed when they should be in the ICU, ICUs operating far below what is considered safe staffing levels. Yeah, but there's no triage in US hospitals. #### Elixir ##### Made in America The governments unvaccinated of those countries are violating the human rights of their citizens. FTFY I do believe that zipr has put his finger on the crux of the problem. Libbertards are very persistent about blaming evil goobermintz for the true evils for which they are collectively responsible. #### TSwizzle ##### Let's go Brandon! Vaccine mandates obsolete; It would be irrational, legally indefensible and contrary to the public interest for government to mandate vaccines absent any evidence that the vaccines are effective in stopping the spread of the pathogen they target. Yet that’s exactly what’s happening here. mandating a vaccine to stop the spread of a disease requires evidence that the vaccines will prevent infection or transmission (rather than efficacy against severe outcomes like hospitalization or death). As the World Health Organization puts it, “if mandatory vaccination is considered necessary to interrupt transmission chains and prevent harm to others, there should be sufficient evidence that the vaccine is efficacious in preventing serious infection and/or transmission.” For Omicron, there is as yet no such evidence. The little data we have suggest the opposite. One preprint study found that after 30 days the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines no longer had any statistically significant positive effect against Omicron infection, and after 90 days, their effect went negative—i.e., vaccinated people were more susceptible to Omicron infection. WSJ #### barbos ##### Contributor Vaccine mandates obsolete; It would be irrational, legally indefensible and contrary to the public interest for government to mandate vaccines absent any evidence that the vaccines are effective in stopping the spread of the pathogen they target. Yet that’s exactly what’s happening here. mandating a vaccine to stop the spread of a disease requires evidence that the vaccines will prevent infection or transmission (rather than efficacy against severe outcomes like hospitalization or death). As the World Health Organization puts it, “if mandatory vaccination is considered necessary to interrupt transmission chains and prevent harm to others, there should be sufficient evidence that the vaccine is efficacious in preventing serious infection and/or transmission.” For Omicron, there is as yet no such evidence. The little data we have suggest the opposite. One preprint study found that after 30 days the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines no longer had any statistically significant positive effect against Omicron infection, and after 90 days, their effect went negative—i.e., vaccinated people were more susceptible to Omicron infection. WSJ There is an issue of medical costs. Unvacinated idiots cost too much. I heard$200K number on average if they get to hospital.

But I am fine with them dying at home isolated fro the rest of population.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
Vaccination has better than a magnitude reduction in the number of people being hospitalized with Covid-19 (Omicron).

The chance of death was never high with Covid. Even Delta, then percentage was always well below 10%, but certainly high enough on an aggregate basis, where millions could die. And while Omicron is killing at a fraction of Delta, it has managed to break our peak for hospitalizations. Hospital capacity has always been a concern and vaccination greatly reduces the impact on our Health Care System (vaccination also costs a lot less money to companies and health care payments).

The WSJ piece is complete bullshit and is anti-vax territory, a justification for ending most mandatory vaccinations. Reducing hospitalizations is and has always been critical.