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Covid-19 miscellany

bilby

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Happy Mondays bassist Paul Ryder dies suddenly;

Shaun Ryder has spoken out about the moment his mother found her son - his brother Paul Ryder - dead last week. Paul was found dead at the age of 58 in bed by his mother Linda last week having died unexpectedly, with Shaun saying his brother complained of a headache before his death after arriving back in the UK from Los Angeles, where he lived. He said, according to The Sun: 'When the ambulance came they said it looked like it had been a blood clot or a brain tumour, but it’s just weird that he’d had that Covid booster the day before.

Daily Mail

I am increasingly skeptical of these "vaccines" and boosters;

Look enough and you're pretty sure to find such an event. People have strokes every day. Somebody's going to have one after getting a vaccination.
Yeah, but the Daily Mail reckons that the report they read in The Sun is significant and newsworthy.

I refuse to have any interaction with The Sun as a matter of principle, and for that matter, I won't click a link to the Daily Mail; But it wouldn't shock me if they got their report from reading the National Enquirer, or perhaps the editor's tea leaves; Or just invented it from whole cloth.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Happy Mondays bassist Paul Ryder dies suddenly;

Shaun Ryder has spoken out about the moment his mother found her son - his brother Paul Ryder - dead last week. Paul was found dead at the age of 58 in bed by his mother Linda last week having died unexpectedly, with Shaun saying his brother complained of a headache before his death after arriving back in the UK from Los Angeles, where he lived. He said, according to The Sun: 'When the ambulance came they said it looked like it had been a blood clot or a brain tumour, but it’s just weird that he’d had that Covid booster the day before.

Daily Mail

I am increasingly skeptical of these "vaccines" and boosters;
If the vaccine was responsible and it were dangerous, there would be a fuck ton (SI Unit) more Covid Vaccine related health problems.
 

Elixir

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I refuse to have any interaction with The Sun as a matter of principle, and for that matter, I won't click a link to the Daily Mail; But it wouldn't shock me if they got their report from reading the National Enquirer, or perhaps the editor's tea leaves; Or just invented it from whole cloth.
It is astonishingly easy to send right wingers into fits of terror. Their innumeracy is but one contributor; most of it comes from pre-conditioning provided by RW media.
 

Rhea

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If the vaccine was responsible and it were dangerous, there would be a fuck ton (SI Unit) more Covid Vaccine related health problems.
This is exactly right - and it’s how we’d look for these things. “If vaccine problems were true, what would it look like? Let’s look for that.” And we look and we don’t find it. “What else could it look like?“ and we don’t find that. “What else?” We don’t find that.
 

Rhea

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For readers who were perhaps not here the last time TSwizzle was shown data, or the time before that, or the tme before that… here are several links tto reputable sources.

There are two learnings from this exchange.
1. The information is easy to find in reputable sources
2. No matter how many times TSwizzle is shown actual research, he would prefer to get his information from tabloids.

Luckily, readers can see for themselves that his assertions are based on emotions perhaps like fear or defiance and the outright rejection of new information rather than medical science.

At any rate. Here are some sources, again.
Mask wearing very definitely has a useful effect on significantly diminishing the spread of disease.
Readers can bookmark this post so that they can remind TSwizzle of all the data an research that has, indeed,, been shown to him.


we recommend increasing focus on a previously overlooked aspect of mask usage: mask wearing by infectious people (“source control”) with benefits at the population level, rather than only mask wearing by susceptible people, such as health care workers, with focus on individual outcomes. We recommend that public officials and governments strongly encourage the use of widespread face masks in public, including the use of appropriate regulation.

  • A large, well-designed cluster-randomized trial in Bangladesh in late 2020 found that surgical or cloth mask distribution, role-modeling, and active mask promotion tripled mask use to 42.3% in intervention villages compared to 13.3% in comparison villages. In villages receiving mask interventions, symptomatic seroprevalence of SARS-CoV-2 was reduced by approximately 9% relative to comparison villages. In villages randomized to receive surgical masks, symptomatic seroprevalence of SARS-CoV-2 was significantly lower (relative reduction 11.1% overall). The results of this study show that even modest increases in community use of masks can effectively reduce symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections (COVID-19).37
  • A study of an outbreak aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt, an environment notable for congregate living quarters and close working environments, found that use of face coverings on-board was associated with a 70% reduced risk of infection.38
  • In a study of 124 Beijing households with > 1 laboratory-confirmed case of SARS-CoV-2 infection, mask use by the index patient and family contacts before the index patient developed symptoms reduced secondary transmission within the households by 79%.39
  • A study examining SARS-CoV-2 secondary attack rates among eight public K-12 school districts in Massachusetts (70 schools with >33,000 enrolled students) during the 2020–21 school year found an unadjusted secondary attack rate of 11.7% for unmasked versus 1.7% for masked interactions.40
The original CDC guidance partly was based on what was thought to be low disease prevalence earlier in the pandemic, said Chin-Hong.

“So, of course, you’re preaching that the juice isn’t really worth the squeeze to have the whole population wear masks in the beginning – but that was really a reflection of not having enough testing, anyway,” he said. “We were getting a false sense of security.”

Rutherford was more blunt. The legitimate concern that the limited supply of surgical masks and N95 respirators should be saved for health care workers should not have prevented more nuanced messaging about the benefits of masking. “We should have told people to wear cloth masks right off the bat,” he said.

“We now have evidence from a randomized, controlled trial that mask promotion increases the use of face coverings and prevents the spread of COVID-19,” said Stephen Luby, MD, professor of medicine at Stanford. “This is the gold standard for evaluating public health interventions. Importantly, this approach was designed be scalable in lower- and middle-income countries struggling to get or distribute vaccines against the virus.”

4.3. Cases studies on protection effective of masks​

Mask effectiveness has been demonstrated in prevention of influenza and some other infectious diseases. Van der Sande et al. (2008) showed that the use of any type of ordinary mask may reduce the risk of exposure to viruses and infections. Some observational results confirmed that frequently using masks in a community can prevent spread of infection from sick and infectious people (Jensen et al., 2005; Rockwood & O’Donoghue, 1960; Srinivasan et al., 2004; Weaver, 1919). As a non‐pharmaceutical intervention to control virus transmission during the influenza pandemic, persistent use of masks significantly reduced the risk of influenza‐like‐illness‐associated infection (Cowling et al., 2008; Maclntyre et al., 2009). Masks were shown to have protective efficacies in excess of 80% against clinical influenza‐like‐illness (Macintyre et al., 2008). Sung et al. found that requiring people who have direct contact with patients to wear surgical masks can considerably reduce respiratory virus infection (Sung et al., 2018). A face‐to‐face interview suggested greater protective effect of medical masks than the cotton masks (Yang et al., 2011). Masks and hand hygiene may reduce respiratory diseases in shared living environments and mitigate the impact of pandemic influenza A (H1N1) (Aiello et al., 2010; Jefferson et al., 2008). Wearing masks can also reduce the risk of avian influenza infection (Wiwanitkit, 2006). Some studies explored the impact of mask use during influenza by establishing a population transmission model from an epidemiological perspective. The results showed possibility of delaying the pandemic by wearing masks nationwide (Brienen et al., 2010; Chan & Yuen, 2020).
 

TSwizzle

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For readers who were perhaps not here the last time TSwizzle was shown data, or the time before that, or the tme before that… here are several links tto reputable sources.

Erm no. And your lengthy reply contains no data although to be fair, I only read three of the dopey articles/opinion pieces because they don't provide any actual evidence. There is a suggestion masks may work but that is not evidence that masks actually work.


This is a bias "study" with zero evidence. It can be dismissed out of hand after reading a few paragraphs. It skims through other poor quality studies. Most of these were presented a long time ago and I addressed them at the time.

e.g. A Cochrane review (15) on physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses included 67 RCTs and observational studies. It found that “overall masks were the best performing intervention across populations, settings and threats.” There is a similar preprint review by the same lead author (16), in which only studies where mask wearing was tested as a stand-alone intervention were included, without combining it with hand hygiene and physical distancing, and excluding observational studies. That review concluded that “there was insufficient evidence to provide a recommendation on the use of facial barriers without other measures.”

Bangladesh?!! You're having a laugh.

One of these studies even said that cloth masks are effective. That was disproved long ago.

Absolutely no point reading the rest. I ask for evidence and you provide nothing of the sort.

You'd think someone who bangs on about how effective masks are would have the evidence at their fingertips. But since there is no evidence that actually prove masks work in stopping/slowing the spread and you provide worthless studies that "suggest" masks may be effective. These are pretty old studies too.

So in future, if you are going to assert that masks work, present evidence that they do. The evidence will have to be more recent that the articles you present here because they did not prove your case the first time they were presented and they still don't.

Miraculously, the infection rate in LA County has slowed down and the mask mandate may be postponed. Fancy that, infections slowed down WITHOUT a mask mandate. "Dr" Barbara Ferrer (not even a medical doctor) is being ridiculed for even suggesting another mask mandate and seems to be backtracking on the idea, proving yet again masks are not about health.
 

Toni

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For readers who were perhaps not here the last time TSwizzle was shown data, or the time before that, or the tme before that… here are several links tto reputable sources.

Erm no. And your lengthy reply contains no data although to be fair, I only read three of the dopey articles/opinion pieces because they don't provide any actual evidence. There is a suggestion masks may work but that is not evidence that masks actually work.


This is a bias "study" with zero evidence. It can be dismissed out of hand after reading a few paragraphs. It skims through other poor quality studies. Most of these were presented a long time ago and I addressed them at the time.

e.g. A Cochrane review (15) on physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses included 67 RCTs and observational studies. It found that “overall masks were the best performing intervention across populations, settings and threats.” There is a similar preprint review by the same lead author (16), in which only studies where mask wearing was tested as a stand-alone intervention were included, without combining it with hand hygiene and physical distancing, and excluding observational studies. That review concluded that “there was insufficient evidence to provide a recommendation on the use of facial barriers without other measures.”

Bangladesh?!! You're having a laugh.

One of these studies even said that cloth masks are effective. That was disproved long ago.

Absolutely no point reading the rest. I ask for evidence and you provide nothing of the sort.

You'd think someone who bangs on about how effective masks are would have the evidence at their fingertips. But since there is no evidence that actually prove masks work in stopping/slowing the spread and you provide worthless studies that "suggest" masks may be effective. These are pretty old studies too.

So in future, if you are going to assert that masks work, present evidence that they do. The evidence will have to be more recent that the articles you present here because they did not prove your case the first time they were presented and they still don't.

Miraculously, the infection rate in LA County has slowed down and the mask mandate may be postponed. Fancy that, infections slowed down WITHOUT a mask mandate. "Dr" Barbara Ferrer (not even a medical doctor) is being ridiculed for even suggesting another mask mandate and seems to be backtracking on the idea, proving yet again masks are not about health.
There is plenty of evidence in the article linked. You simply refuse to believe the evidence, such as the efficacy of mask use aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt or the hair salon in Springfield MO. You scoff at studies performed in Bangladesh or China.

...still a man will hear what he wants to hear and disregard the rest or something like that..
 

TSwizzle

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There is plenty of evidence in the article linked. You simply refuse to believe the evidence, such as the efficacy of mask use aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt or the hair salon in Springfield MO. You scoff at studies performed in Bangladesh or China.
Yeah, that was lol ridiculous. As was Bangladesh.

...still a man will hear what he wants to hear and disregard the rest or something like that..

I'd listen to evidence but you guys never produce any. Stop presenting lame studies that suggest.

Bring evidence or pipe down.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Well, he's been towing the anti-mask line for quite a while, no need to change tact. He was trotting out the Trump bullshit about the flu killing so many blah blah blah. Since exposing his wisdom then, roughly 1 million Americans have died. And still we hear the bullshit denialism.
 

Toni

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There is plenty of evidence in the article linked. You simply refuse to believe the evidence, such as the efficacy of mask use aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt or the hair salon in Springfield MO. You scoff at studies performed in Bangladesh or China.
Yeah, that was lol ridiculous. As was Bangladesh.

...still a man will hear what he wants to hear and disregard the rest or something like that..

I'd listen to evidence but you guys never produce any. Stop presenting lame studies that suggest.

Bring evidence or pipe down.
Evidence suggests that you do not know what evidence is.
Evidence suggests that you stop reading whenever a study associates brown people with data or evidence.
Evidence suggests you feel comfortable telling women to shut up if you don't like what they have to say.
 

TSwizzle

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Evidence suggests that you do not know what evidence is.
I know that what was presented is not evidence. Two and a half years in and still nothing. Pathetic.,

Evidence suggests that you stop reading whenever a study associates brown people with data or evidence.
I am not going to waste much of my time on a silly conspiracy theory level rubbish study. The Bangladesh study is laughable.

Evidence suggests you feel comfortable telling women to shut up if you don't like what they have to say.

Here's actual evidence; I feel comfortable challenging anyone to present evidence or to otherwise pipe down.
 

Elixir

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Evidence suggests that you do not know what evidence is.
Evidence suggests that you stop reading whenever a study associates brown people with data or evidence.
Evidence suggests you feel comfortable telling women to shut up if you don't like what they have to say.

Well hell. No wonder these RW extremists have such antipathy toward evidence.

Here's actual evidence; I feel comfortable challenging anyone to present evidence or to otherwise pipe down.

Thank you for providing the above evidence, supporting the hypothesis that you, like most of your RW extremist ilk,
have no idea what evidence is.

(Hint: statements about how YOU feel, while unarguable, do not constitute evidence of ANYTHING.)
 

TSwizzle

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Great news!!!;

Several new studies published this month support wearing masks to curb the transmission of the novel coronavirus. The broadest, a review funded by the World Health Organization and published in the journal Lancet, concluded that data from 172 observational studies indicate wearing face masks reduces the risk of coronavirus infection.

WaPo

Oh wait;

But that conclusion came with an important caveat: “We have low certainty in that,” Schünemann said, meaning the authors cannot be strongly confident in the result.
 

Elixir

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Great news!!!;

Several new studies published this month support wearing masks to curb the transmission of the novel coronavirus. The broadest, a review funded by the World Health Organization and published in the journal Lancet, concluded that data from 172 observational studies indicate wearing face masks reduces the risk of coronavirus infection.

WaPo

Oh wait;

But that conclusion came with an important caveat: “We have low certainty in that,” Schünemann said, meaning the authors cannot be strongly confident in the result.
What exactly do you think THAT is "evidence" of?
I am going to guess that the lack of certitude demanded by conservotards confirms your suspicion that science is full of shit.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Ruth Harris

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Great news!!!;

Several new studies published this month support wearing masks to curb the transmission of the novel coronavirus. The broadest, a review funded by the World Health Organization and published in the journal Lancet, concluded that data from 172 observational studies indicate wearing face masks reduces the risk of coronavirus infection.

WaPo

Oh wait;

But that conclusion came with an important caveat: “We have low certainty in that,” Schünemann said, meaning the authors cannot be strongly confident in the result.
Article date: June 13, 2020

A two year old article is your only comeback? Pretty weak.

Ruth
 

TSwizzle

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Great news!!!;

Several new studies published this month support wearing masks to curb the transmission of the novel coronavirus. The broadest, a review funded by the World Health Organization and published in the journal Lancet, concluded that data from 172 observational studies indicate wearing face masks reduces the risk of coronavirus infection.

WaPo

Oh wait;

But that conclusion came with an important caveat: “We have low certainty in that,” Schünemann said, meaning the authors cannot be strongly confident in the result.
Article date: June 13, 2020

A two year old article is your only comeback? Pretty weak.

Ruth
Did you check the date of some of the articles Rhea posted?
 

Ruth Harris

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Did you check the date of some of the articles Rhea posted?
Why should I? I am not the one saying that there are no valid mask studies at all.

You would be more convincing if you could show a current valid study supporting your position.

Ruth
 

Toni

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Evidence suggests that you do not know what evidence is.
I know that what was presented is not evidence. Two and a half years in and still nothing. Pathetic.,

Evidence suggests that you stop reading whenever a study associates brown people with data or evidence.
I am not going to waste much of my time on a silly conspiracy theory level rubbish study. The Bangladesh study is laughable.

Evidence suggests you feel comfortable telling women to shut up if you don't like what they have to say.

Here's actual evidence; I feel comfortable challenging anyone to present evidence or to otherwise pipe down.
The only thing you do believe is conspiracy level rubbish.
 

TSwizzle

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TSwizzle

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Evidence suggests that you do not know what evidence is.
I know that what was presented is not evidence. Two and a half years in and still nothing. Pathetic.,

Evidence suggests that you stop reading whenever a study associates brown people with data or evidence.
I am not going to waste much of my time on a silly conspiracy theory level rubbish study. The Bangladesh study is laughable.

Evidence suggests you feel comfortable telling women to shut up if you don't like what they have to say.

Here's actual evidence; I feel comfortable challenging anyone to present evidence or to otherwise pipe down.
The only thing you do believe is conspiracy level rubbish.

I don't believe masks are effective at stopping/slowing the spread of covid. I have no reason to believe they do because I have seen no evidence to prove that. How is that a conspiracy theory?
 

Don2 (Don1 Revised)

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Evidence suggests that you do not know what evidence is.
I know that what was presented is not evidence. Two and a half years in and still nothing. Pathetic.,

Evidence suggests that you stop reading whenever a study associates brown people with data or evidence.
I am not going to waste much of my time on a silly conspiracy theory level rubbish study. The Bangladesh study is laughable.

Evidence suggests you feel comfortable telling women to shut up if you don't like what they have to say.

Here's actual evidence; I feel comfortable challenging anyone to present evidence or to otherwise pipe down.
The only thing you do believe is conspiracy level rubbish.

I don't believe masks are effective at stopping/slowing the spread of covid. I have no reason to believe they do because I have seen no evidence to prove that. How is that a conspiracy theory?
You posted a study ages ago that had to admit they were somewhat effective, like 22% or something reduction, don't remember exactly, but you posted, a bunch of people commented, and you ignored the issue.
 

Toni

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Evidence suggests that you do not know what evidence is.
I know that what was presented is not evidence. Two and a half years in and still nothing. Pathetic.,

Evidence suggests that you stop reading whenever a study associates brown people with data or evidence.
I am not going to waste much of my time on a silly conspiracy theory level rubbish study. The Bangladesh study is laughable.

Evidence suggests you feel comfortable telling women to shut up if you don't like what they have to say.

Here's actual evidence; I feel comfortable challenging anyone to present evidence or to otherwise pipe down.
The only thing you do believe is conspiracy level rubbish.

I don't believe masks are effective at stopping/slowing the spread of covid. I have no reason to believe they do because I have seen no evidence to prove that. How is that a conspiracy theory?
You HAVE seen evidence. You choose to disbelieve it and instead believe whatever tabloids have to say about it.
 

TSwizzle

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You HAVE seen evidence. You choose to disbelieve it and instead believe whatever tabloids have to say about it.

Nope. You and others have presented the same flawed studies that "suggest" masks work. That is not strong enough evidence to support mask mandates. You can go along with it if you like. but it does not convince me that I need to go along with it.
 

Toni

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You HAVE seen evidence. You choose to disbelieve it and instead believe whatever tabloids have to say about it.

Nope. You and others have presented the same flawed studies that "suggest" masks work. That is not strong enough evidence to support mask mandates. You can go along with it if you like. but it does not convince me that I need to go along with it.
You clearly do not understand science. Scientists say evidence suggests. JOURNALISTS say something proves.

You still have not written anything that suggests you know what evidence is.
 

TSwizzle

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You HAVE seen evidence. You choose to disbelieve it and instead believe whatever tabloids have to say about it.

Nope. You and others have presented the same flawed studies that "suggest" masks work. That is not strong enough evidence to support mask mandates. You can go along with it if you like. but it does not convince me that I need to go along with it.
You clearly do not understand science. Scientists say evidence suggests. JOURNALISTS say something proves.

I understand science well enough to see the flaws in studies. You may take the "hair salon" anecdote as evidence but I do not. The Bangladesh study is flawed and was breathlessly reported by the media as evidence that masks worked. It wasn't.

You still have not written anything that suggests you know what evidence is.

You still haven't presented any evidence.
 

Toni

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You HAVE seen evidence. You choose to disbelieve it and instead believe whatever tabloids have to say about it.

Nope. You and others have presented the same flawed studies that "suggest" masks work. That is not strong enough evidence to support mask mandates. You can go along with it if you like. but it does not convince me that I need to go along with it.
You clearly do not understand science. Scientists say evidence suggests. JOURNALISTS say something proves.

I understand science well enough to see the flaws in studies. You may take the "hair salon" anecdote as evidence but I do not. The Bangladesh study is flawed and was breathlessly reported by the media as evidence that masks worked. It wasn't.

You still have not written anything that suggests you know what evidence is.

You still haven't presented any evidence.
How do you know?
You haven't presented any evidence that you know what evidence is, despite me asking a couple of times.
 

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Happy Mondays bassist Paul Ryder dies suddenly;

Shaun Ryder has spoken out about the moment his mother found her son - his brother Paul Ryder - dead last week. Paul was found dead at the age of 58 in bed by his mother Linda last week having died unexpectedly, with Shaun saying his brother complained of a headache before his death after arriving back in the UK from Los Angeles, where he lived. He said, according to The Sun: 'When the ambulance came they said it looked like it had been a blood clot or a brain tumour, but it’s just weird that he’d had that Covid booster the day before.

Daily Mail

I am increasingly skeptical of these "vaccines" and boosters;
If the vaccine was responsible and it were dangerous, there would be a fuck ton (SI Unit) more Covid Vaccine related health problems.
The rule of large numbers dictates that if you can specify something people die of a lot (strokes), and something that a lot of people do that you don't like, you can always find people who do things that you don't like prior to someone dying of the thing you wish to draw a false connection to.

Thus I can almost certainly find an instance of some dumbshit posting something dumb online and then having a stroke, but there's no political motive to tie shit posting to having a stroke, while the motive to watch a disease cause chaos while spinning the wheel on it yourself has a fairly large base of political support apparently.

The only reason it doesn't happen, TBH, this linking of shit posting to strokes, is because the people with a motive to end shit posting won't shitpost to accomplish it, nor should they have to.
 

Toni

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You haven't presented any evidence that you know what evidence is, despite me asking a couple of times.
I know you haven't provided any. And until you do, we are done.

Pipe down.
I’ll be as loud as I like.

You obviously have no criteria for what you would believe as evidence. Only that if it co traduces your prejudices, it can’t be evidence.
 

TSwizzle

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You haven't presented any evidence that you know what evidence is, despite me asking a couple of times.
I know you haven't provided any. And until you do, we are done.

Pipe down.
I’ll be as loud as I like.

No doubt.
You obviously have no criteria for what you would believe as evidence. Only that if it co traduces your prejudices, it can’t be evidence.
I am not going to accept flawed studies as evidence. I don't know why anyone would.
 

Rhea

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The readers of this thread will note that TSwizzle has provided no discussion for why *he* thinks any of the studies are flawed.

(I address other readers of this thread because I know a lot of people read and enjoy the discussions, and many of us learn from discussions that we read. TSwizzle is not among thse who read to learn, and that I why I do not waste my time addressing him as if to change his opinion; his opinion is cemented and is not based on any scientific analysis of data whatsoever, as evidenced by his choice to quote sleazy tabloids for every point he makes. Hence I know the people I’m in conversation with are other readers, including those who do not post at all.)

The studies are published and peer reviewed by people who understand how to use - or not use - data to draw useful and predictive conclusions.

No scientist, of course, intends to claim anything with 100% certainty. But they know, and we know, that if something is 50% effective or 80% oeffective at reducing disease or severe outcome, it is worth doing. Scientists know that it would be monstrously unethical to do a designed study or double blind, when people’s lives are on the line.

But they can look to places that create the conditions that a designed experiment would recommend, and then look at outcomes there as a test. When they do enough of these, and the results all point in the same direction, that adds to the certainty of the predictive conclusion And its usefulness in public policy.

Masks work.
They work when worn widely.
They are worn more widely when they are easy to get.
The have become easier to get as this pandemic has worn on.

Prior to the pandemic, it was well known with a lot of supporting data that certain professions and certain cultures wearing masks helped reduce the spread of disease. There is not a lack of data. And it all points in one direction.

It is not guaranteed. But it improves outcomes.
It is not the only thing. But it improves outcomes.

Along comes TSwizzle who claims masks have NO effect. Who dismisses studies as “flawed” without discussing any flaw or presenting contradicting studies. Who looks at evidence and decides to claim it is not evidence.

Evidence is the data that relates to a hypothesis. It might be supporting evidence, and it might be refuting evidence, it might even be inconclusive evidence.

Yet TSwizzle does not appear to understand this and seems to confuse “evidence” with “proof.” It sounds like he’s trying to say, “that’s not proof,” even though he mistakenly uses the word “evidence.”

But the evidence piles up, and in one direction. Masks help.

We will never have “proof” that “guarantees” stopping transmission; but doing the right thing has never asked for “proof” or “guarantees” of “100% efficacy.” Consilient evidence for improved outcome is sufficient.

He looks for excuses to justify defiant behavior. He thinks he has found it when he can say, “no 100% guarantee - no cooperation!” But lack of 100% single-mechanism guaranteed-outcome proof does not equal, and it never has equalled, a reasonable refusal of the application of the evidence.
 

TSwizzle

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Evidence is the data that relates to a hypothesis. It might be supporting evidence, and it might be refuting evidence, it might even be inconclusive evidence.
At best the "evidence" such as it is, is inconclusive.
 

Hermit

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I am not going to accept flawed studies as evidence. I don't know why anyone would.
Why are the studies flawed?
Prof Holger J Schünemann, MD is a conscientious scientist. He cautioned that the metastudy's conclusions were of low certainty because none of the 172 observational studies across 16 countries and six continents he, Derek K Chu, MD, Prof Elie A Akl, MD, Stephanie Duda, MSc, Karla Solo and MSc Sally Yaacoub, MPH examined satisfied the gold standard in science of being randomized, double-blinded controlled trials. So, yes, those are the flaws.

Nevertheless, those flaws did not make the authors resile from concluding that
Face mask use could result in a large reduction in risk of infection (n=2647; aOR 0·15, 95% CI 0·07 to 0·34, RD −14·3%, −15·9 to −10·7; low certainty), with stronger associations with N95 or similar respirators compared with disposable surgical masks or similar (eg, reusable 12–16-layer cotton masks; pinteraction=0·090; posterior probability >95%, low certainty).
and
Optimum use of face masks, respirators, and eye protection in public and health-care settings should be informed by these findings and contextual factors. Robust randomised trials are needed to better inform the evidence for these interventions, but this systematic appraisal of currently best available evidence might inform interim guidance.
The cautions are evidence of top level scientific diligence and it should be obvious to all but one member of this forum that the conclusions are nowhere near saying that there is no evidence that masks actually work. My reading of them is that there is evidence that they do work, but the extent to which they work as quantified in the various observational studies the authors looked at is of low certainty.

It is worth mentioning that the metastudy was published by the Lancet on June 01, 2020 after being peer-reviewed.
 

Toni

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Evidence is the data that relates to a hypothesis. It might be supporting evidence, and it might be refuting evidence, it might even be inconclusive evidence.
At best the "evidence" such as it is, is inconclusive.
How would you know? You don't know what evidence is.
 

Loren Pechtel

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There is plenty of evidence in the article linked. You simply refuse to believe the evidence, such as the efficacy of mask use aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt or the hair salon in Springfield MO. You scoff at studies performed in Bangladesh or China.
Yeah, that was lol ridiculous. As was Bangladesh.

...still a man will hear what he wants to hear and disregard the rest or something like that..

I'd listen to evidence but you guys never produce any. Stop presenting lame studies that suggest.

Bring evidence or pipe down.
In the real world you are often limited in what you can ethically research.

There are no controlled studies about masks because that would never get past an ethics panel. All we can do is compare the status quo with something above the status quo and you can't prohibit people from also taking other precautions. Thus you'll never find mask data completely isolated from other relevant things.

We do see that the doctors don't drop like flies when dealing with Covid patients--and the only thing they are doing that could reasonably be shielding them is the PPE they wear--and respirators are clearly an important part of that.

You'll never find good data on stuff below respirators because anyone serious about it has been using the respirators from when they could get their hands on them. You don't have a study group/control group situation, you have a serious about it/half-assed about it/idiot about it situation. Since people inherently self-select on this the data is contaminated no matter what.
 

ZiprHead

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Biden has now tested negative for covid and is no longer in quarantine.
 

Hermit

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Biden has now tested negative for covid and is no longer in quarantine.
But does he still have cancer?
No.
In a November 2021 memo summarizing Biden’s health, Dr. Kevin O’Connor, Biden’s physician for more than a decade, acknowledged that Biden had “several localized, non-melanoma skin cancers removed with Mohs surgery before he started his presidency.”

“These lesions were completely excised, with clear margins,” the report continued.
 

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Beverly Hills mayor will not enforce masks if "Dr" Barbara Ferrer puts out a mandate;

Beverly Hills' Democratic mayor has appeared on Fox & Friends to slam Los Angeles' looming indoor mask mandate and stood firm that her city will NOT enforce it. Three-term mayor Lili Bosse revealed that she won't be dispatching officers in her city to police indoor mask wearing if the state reimposes the coronavirus restriction because she believes in 'the power of choice.' She previously struck down the possibility of enforcing an indoor mask mandate, and the council, led by herself, voted unanimously to not deploy resources. The mayor also said that forcing people to wear masks was a 'function of enforcement' and there are 'more important issues' to be tackling now, two years after the beginning of the pandemic.

Daily Mail


LA County is the only county in California (the country?) obsessing over masks and covid. "Dr" Barbara Ferrer is a nut.
 

TSwizzle

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The authoritarians will be disappointed;

The Los Angeles County Health Department declined Thursday to impose a universal public indoor mask mandate, citing a "decent decrease" in cases and hospitalizations. Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer made the announcement during a livestreamed meeting.
"Given the declines in case of hospitalization numbers, we're hopeful that the admission rate over the next few days remains under 10 new admissions per 100,000 residents and L.A. County is soon officially moved by (the Centers for Disease Control) to the 'medium' community level," Ferrer said. "As I noted last week, any indication that the county would soon be moving to the medium community level would be a good reason to not move forward with universal indoor masking."
Supervisor Kathryn Barger hailed the decision to hold off on reinstating the rule. "Unenforceable mandates don't work," Barger said in a statement Thursday afternoon. "We must continue to marshal our mandates and resources effectively in the fight against COVID-19."

LA News

Mysteriously, the cases and hospitalization numbers declined WITHOUT a mask mandate. Weird, huh?
 

Toni

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The authoritarians will be disappointed;

The Los Angeles County Health Department declined Thursday to impose a universal public indoor mask mandate, citing a "decent decrease" in cases and hospitalizations. Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer made the announcement during a livestreamed meeting.
"Given the declines in case of hospitalization numbers, we're hopeful that the admission rate over the next few days remains under 10 new admissions per 100,000 residents and L.A. County is soon officially moved by (the Centers for Disease Control) to the 'medium' community level," Ferrer said. "As I noted last week, any indication that the county would soon be moving to the medium community level would be a good reason to not move forward with universal indoor masking."
Supervisor Kathryn Barger hailed the decision to hold off on reinstating the rule. "Unenforceable mandates don't work," Barger said in a statement Thursday afternoon. "We must continue to marshal our mandates and resources effectively in the fight against COVID-19."

LA News

Mysteriously, the cases and hospitalization numbers declined WITHOUT a mask mandate. Weird, huh?
Not at all. Vaccinations are working. A couple of weeks or a little more after school starts again, and kids start sharing their germs with each other and bringing home their germs to their families, there will be another wave with the newest variant. Idiots will resist masking and more people will get sick. Latest variant is more infections but USUALLY less serious. But people will die unnecessarily and other people will be unnecessarily ill. We still don't know if those who suffer from long COVID will still have side effects in another year or five years. Hopefully not but it's really unknown how much permanent damage the virus and its variants does.
 

Toni

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Vaccinations are working.
In what way do you think the vaccinations are working? Keeping people out of the hospital, less severe symptoms? Probably.

Stopping the spread? Not so much.
Vaccinations certainly are reducing the severity of symptom and keeping people out of the hospital (for now).

Unfortunately, too many people were unwilling to mask or stay home early in the pandemic or to vaccinate as soon as eligible. This allowed the virus to continue to spread and to mutate. Each mutation provides an opportunity for the newly mutated virus to be less affected by vaccines in use. Which is why they've been working on another vaccine that will more specifically target the new variants.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Vaccinations are working.
In what way do you think the vaccinations are working? Keeping people out of the hospital, less severe symptoms? Probably.

Stopping the spread? Not so much.
While we'd prefer the trifecta and it stopping contraction like it did with original and alpha, the top two are incredibly important.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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The authoritarians will be disappointed;

The Los Angeles County Health Department declined Thursday to impose a universal public indoor mask mandate, citing a "decent decrease" in cases and hospitalizations. Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer made the announcement during a livestreamed meeting.
"Given the declines in case of hospitalization numbers, we're hopeful that the admission rate over the next few days remains under 10 new admissions per 100,000 residents and L.A. County is soon officially moved by (the Centers for Disease Control) to the 'medium' community level," Ferrer said. "As I noted last week, any indication that the county would soon be moving to the medium community level would be a good reason to not move forward with universal indoor masking."
Supervisor Kathryn Barger hailed the decision to hold off on reinstating the rule. "Unenforceable mandates don't work," Barger said in a statement Thursday afternoon. "We must continue to marshal our mandates and resources effectively in the fight against COVID-19."

LA News

Mysteriously, the cases and hospitalization numbers declined WITHOUT a mask mandate. Weird, huh?
The authoritarians were at the US Capitol on January 6th. You are talking about people trying to mitigate a public health situation, trying to ensure it doesn't become a crisis again.
 
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