Covid-19 miscellany

[thebeave]

They opposed what seemed like Trump's recklessness, and the Trump Administration gave very little reason to believe that it would pursue a careful policy. This is from Trump dismissing the virus as a non-issue and supporting worthless "treatments" for it.

I was leery of the vaccine at first. I knew it been developed during the Trump administration and that Trump tended to value ideology and loyalty over competence in high level appointments.

By May I was over it, but due to my age I was eligible in March.
Tom

I've heard this kind of distrust about the Trump administration vaccine development quite a bit, but could never wrap my head around the details. Were you concerned that Trump and/or his cronies were going to stand around in the lab telling Phizer scientists to add this or that (bleach?) and that that the scientists would say, "Um...Ok, you got it. You're the boss!". That's a whole new level of TDS conspiracy nuttery that makes my head spin.

 

[Trausti]

They opposed what seemed like Trump's recklessness, and the Trump Administration gave very little reason to believe that it would pursue a careful policy. This is from Trump dismissing the virus as a non-issue and supporting worthless "treatments" for it.

I was leery of the vaccine at first. I knew it been developed during the Trump administration and that Trump tended to value ideology and loyalty over competence in high level appointments.

By May I was over it, but due to my age I was eligible in March.
Tom

I've heard this kind of distrust about the Trump administration vaccine development quite a bit, but could never wrap my head around the details. Were you concerned that Trump and/or his cronies were going to stand around in the lab telling Phizer scientists to add this or that (bleach?) and that that the scientists would say, "Um...Ok, you got it. You're the boss!". That's a whole new level of TDS conspiracy nuttery that makes my head spin.

Operation Warp Speed was Trump’s greatest accomplishment. The lefties didn’t want Trump to get the credit so they did everything to tar it. But now the left gets to use the vaccine to indulge its authoritarian fantasies.

 

[crazyfingers]

They opposed what seemed like Trump's recklessness, and the Trump Administration gave very little reason to believe that it would pursue a careful policy. This is from Trump dismissing the virus as a non-issue and supporting worthless "treatments" for it.

I was leery of the vaccine at first. I knew it been developed during the Trump administration and that Trump tended to value ideology and loyalty over competence in high level appointments.

By May I was over it, but due to my age I was eligible in March.
Tom

I've heard this kind of distrust about the Trump administration vaccine development quite a bit, but could never wrap my head around the details. Were you concerned that Trump and/or his cronies were going to stand around in the lab telling Phizer scientists to add this or that (bleach?) and that that the scientists would say, "Um...Ok, you got it. You're the boss!". That's a whole new level of TDS conspiracy nuttery that makes my head spin.

Trump had warped too many government agencies to dismiss the idea that the CDC and FDA could also be warped.

Justice Department acting as his personal lawyer
Post Office working to slow mail-in ballots
EPA and other scientific departments had erased references to global warming from their websites and political editing and whitewashing of studies related to climate change

I'm sure that if I thought hard enough I could create a longer list but it was very clear that agencies were less following their mandates and more towing the Trump line.

And Trump was working to weaken civil service protections so that career employees in specific specialties could not know if they would be turned into political appointees and then fired for not distorting evidence based conclusions to the Trump line

Trump had infected so many government agencies that it was not really possible from the outside to know which were not corrupted.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I've heard this kind of distrust about the Trump administration vaccine development quite a bit, but could never wrap my head around the details. Were you concerned that Trump and/or his cronies were going to stand around in the lab telling Phizer scientists to add this or that (bleach?) and that that the scientists would say, "Um...Ok, you got it. You're the boss!". That's a whole new level of TDS conspiracy nuttery that makes my head spin.

Person perplexed by people having a trust problem with Donald Trump.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Meanwhile, the worker shortage seems to be seeping. Calling in utility markings for a project and OUPS is effectively saying 'umm... please wait... not many people to answer the calls'. Not certain if this is a pay wage issue or a 'you aren't immunized, no work for you' issue.

 

[Toni]

I retired after years in health care. Most people who are involved in patient care are intelligent and well educated and understand science.

Some do not. Some prefer woo and some prefer to be influenced by politics rather than data. Some prefer to ...do what their mood or their preconceived notions tell them to do, not well established protocols. These are not bright people or even well meaning people. These are people who are driven by their own egos rather than the needs of the patients.

I never called anyone stupid. I said that not everyone in health care is really that bright--which is true of human beings in any and all professions.

I have no idea what you mean by your wife's patients getting sick after the jab. She's a physician? A nurse? A PA? An NP? I have no idea. I also have no idea what 'sick' means in this context.

Well, do you think people should be fired for choosing not to? I mean, if we're supposedly in an epidemic and worried about hospital capacity, surely firing doctors and nurses would seem not the best idea?

I was required to be vaccinated against a number of illnesses as part of my job. This included an annual flu shot. They DID allow people to opt out of flu vaccine if they could get a doctor to sign off on it or if they signed certain waivers. Personally, I don't think that waivers for any reason other than medical reasons should have been allowed.

I feel exactly the same way about COVID19 vaccines: If you want to work in a medical facility, you should be required to be vaccinated. You are required to be vaccinated to attend day cares and schools, including through universities, according to the vaccine schedule established by medical science and best practices.

If you are medically able to be vaccinated, you should be required to be vaccinated as a condition of employment. This protects patients, and importantly, co-workers who are unable to be vaccinated because of their own medical condition. You should not be allowed to put another person's life at risk because of a risk you CHOOSE to assume.

 

[thebeave]

I've heard this kind of distrust about the Trump administration vaccine development quite a bit, but could never wrap my head around the details. Were you concerned that Trump and/or his cronies were going to stand around in the lab telling Phizer scientists to add this or that (bleach?) and that that the scientists would say, "Um...Ok, you got it. You're the boss!". That's a whole new level of TDS conspiracy nuttery that makes my head spin.

Person perplexed by people having a trust problem with Donald Trump.

That doesn't address anything I said. What do you think was the focus of all the initial distrust? That Operation Warp Speed would be handled incompetently or would be a boondoggle? That's certainly a fair concern. If that was the case, then there would be no vaccine to be distrustful about. Or is it that the vaccine would not be safe? Or effective? Or purposely made to kill or injure people for some reason? Or maybe just kill POCs or Democrats?

Let's get into the details. The vaccine was developed independently in a very short period of time by multiple pharmaceutical companies working simultaneously. Thousands of brilliant scientists, technicians and researchers working ungodly hours for months straight. If there were something nefarious going on with the safety and efficacy data, don't you think there would be a least a few whistleblowers screaming from the get go? Or did Trump threaten them all and they all stayed silent? This is the same kind of lunacy we see with the people who believe the moon landing was a hoax. You just can't expect thousands of people to keep their mouth shut.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Trump had warped too many government agencies to dismiss the idea that the CDC and FDA could also be warped.

Justice Department acting as his personal lawyer
Post Office working to slow mail-in ballots
EPA and other scientific departments had erased references to global warming from their websites and political editing and whitewashing of studies related to climate change

I'm sure that if I thought hard enough I could create a longer list but it was very clear that agencies were less following their mandates and more towing the Trump line.

Trump had infected so many government agencies that it was not really possible from the outside to know which were not corrupted.

A few more: Justice Dept. also agreed to open civil rights investigations into systematic discrimination against Caucasians. Trump of course wanted Justice to prosecute Hillary. And he asked why Border Patrol couldn't kneecap people in "the Caravan."
The Weather Service (Weather Service!!) kowtowing to Trump's erroneous Sharpie-based hurricane warning.
The State Dept. (after being purged of hundreds of veteran diplomats) putting up with Trump going one-on-one with Putin with only a translator present, and the translator sworn to secrecy.
And of course all those covid task force members at the press conferences who had to stand silently as Trump unburdened his ignorant mind on covid remedies and predictions.

I expect someday we'll find out that Trump pressured the U.S. Mint to produce golden Trump dollars and the Ivanka International Trade Token, and that he wanted the Bureau of Weights and Measures to rename the short ton and call it the standard trumpass.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Justice Department acting as his personal lawyer
Post Office working to slow mail-in ballots
EPA and other scientific departments had erased references to global warming from their websites and political editing and whitewashing of studies related to climate change

I'm sure that if I thought hard enough I could create a longer list

The Weather Guessers unable to disagree with the Sharpie edits to the hurricane prediction map.
The prosecutors for Roger Stone's case resigning en mass when their department changed it's recommendation for Stone's sentencing.

Agency after agency, the appointees at the top pressuring their version of reality or political expediency down onto the experts.
Yeah. Concern about trusting the government to fully implement their standing process for vaccine validation is paranoia on OUR part. Sure.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I retired after years in health care. Most people who are involved in patient care are intelligent and well educated and understand science.

Some do not. Some prefer woo and some prefer to be influenced by politics rather than data. Some prefer to ...do what their mood or their preconceived notions tell them to do, not well established protocols. These are not bright people or even well meaning people. These are people who are driven by their own egos rather than the needs of the patients.

I never called anyone stupid. I said that not everyone in health care is really that bright--which is true of human beings in any and all professions.

I have no idea what you mean by your wife's patients getting sick after the jab. She's a physician? A nurse? A PA? An NP? I have no idea. I also have no idea what 'sick' means in this context.

Well, do you think people should be fired for choosing not to? I mean, if we're supposedly in an epidemic and worried about hospital capacity, surely firing doctors and nurses would seem not the best idea?

Agreed, it seems absolutely ridiculous to allow hospital workers to go unvaccinated, risking not only their health and their capacity to do their job, but that of the staff at the hospital in general.

Good thing vaccines are done with babies and children, because otherwise, we'd likely be back to polio pandemics.

 

[Elixir]

I retired after years in health care. Most people who are involved in patient care are intelligent and well educated and understand science.

Some do not. Some prefer woo and some prefer to be influenced by politics rather than data. Some prefer to ...do what their mood or their preconceived notions tell them to do, not well established protocols. These are not bright people or even well meaning people. These are people who are driven by their own egos rather than the needs of the patients.

I never called anyone stupid. I said that not everyone in health care is really that bright--which is true of human beings in any and all professions.

I have no idea what you mean by your wife's patients getting sick after the jab. She's a physician? A nurse? A PA? An NP? I have no idea. I also have no idea what 'sick' means in this context.

Well, do you think people should be fired for choosing not to? I mean, if we're supposedly in an epidemic and worried about hospital capacity, surely firing doctors and nurses would seem not the best idea?

Agreed, it seems absolutely ridiculous to allow hospital workers to go unvaccinated, risking not only their health and their capacity to do their job, but that of the staff at the hospital in general.

Good thing vaccines are done with babies and children, because otherwise, we'd likely be back to polio pandemics.

B-b-b-but she got SICK! After getting THE SHOT!
PROOOF! the shot makes you SICK!
/rightwing idiocy

 

[Keith&Co.]

I retired after years in health care. Most people who are involved in patient care are intelligent and well educated and understand science.

Some do not. Some prefer woo and some prefer to be influenced by politics rather than data. Some prefer to ...do what their mood or their preconceived notions tell them to do, not well established protocols. These are not bright people or even well meaning people. These are people who are driven by their own egos rather than the needs of the patients.

I never called anyone stupid. I said that not everyone in health care is really that bright--which is true of human beings in any and all professions.

I have no idea what you mean by your wife's patients getting sick after the jab. She's a physician? A nurse? A PA? An NP? I have no idea. I also have no idea what 'sick' means in this context.

Well, do you think people should be fired for choosing not to? I mean, if we're supposedly in an epidemic and worried about hospital capacity, surely firing doctors and nurses would seem not the best idea?

Agreed, it seems absolutely ridiculous to allow hospital workers to go unvaccinated, risking not only their health and their capacity to do their job, but that of the staff at the hospital in general.

Good thing vaccines are done with babies and children, because otherwise, we'd likely be back to polio pandemics.

Yes. Anything worth doing is worth doing badly.

If you can't get enough qualified nurses to safely treat patients during a pandemic, get plague rats to at least take their temperatures and pulse rates while they risk killing them in their beds.

 

[bilby]

If you're going to fire nurses for exercising their freedom not to protect patients against infectious diseases, where will it end?

Next they'll start firing truck drivers who exercise their freedom not to stop at red lights; Or airline pilots who exercise their freedom to drink a fifth of whiskey half an hour before their flights.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If you're going to fire nurses for exercising their freedom not to protect patients against infectious diseases, where will it end?

Seriously, these are the questions Americans are asking with a straight face. And demand to be taken seriously!

About 50,000 died from Covid-19 in the last 30 days. And the anti-vaxxers are about 6 in 7 against the Biden OSHA mandate.

 

[Elixir]

If you can't get enough qualified nurses to safely treat patients during a pandemic, get plague rats to at least take their temperatures and pulse rates while they risk killing them in their beds.

In defense of Trausti's defense of free-dumb, I gotta ask; is there evidence that COVID transmitted to a patient by a vaccinated plague rat is any less severe than COVID transmitted by an un-vaccinated plague rat?
I have seen it implied that the viral load might be less, but haven't seen or heard of any studies that reached that definitive conclusion.
(If I were a conservo, I would take the fact that I haven't seen such a thing as strong evidence that no such thing exists. But here, I am really asking the question - does it exist?)

 

[Keith&Co.]

If you're going to fire nurses for exercising their freedom not to protect patients against infectious diseases, where will it end?

Seriously, these are the questions Americans are asking with a straight face. And demand to be taken seriously!

About 50,000 died from Covid-19 in the last 30 days. And the anti-vaxxers are about 6 in 7 against the Biden OSHA mandate.

You know, 10 years ago, i saw a website where nurses were comparing ways to keep their job but fake required vaccinations. Go to Walgreens, pay for a shot, pocket the receipt, then when the pharmacist opens the fridge, turn and depart.
Then show the receipt to your boss, and Bob's your creepy uncle.

I suspect that the change is not about getting this vaccine, but in today's political climate, suddenly they think they should have a right they didn't have before.

 

[Toni]

I've heard this kind of distrust about the Trump administration vaccine development quite a bit, but could never wrap my head around the details. Were you concerned that Trump and/or his cronies were going to stand around in the lab telling Phizer scientists to add this or that (bleach?) and that that the scientists would say, "Um...Ok, you got it. You're the boss!". That's a whole new level of TDS conspiracy nuttery that makes my head spin.

Person perplexed by people having a trust problem with Donald Trump.

That doesn't address anything I said. What do you think was the focus of all the initial distrust? That Operation Warp Speed would be handled incompetently or would be a boondoggle? That's certainly a fair concern. If that was the case, then there would be no vaccine to be distrustful about. Or is it that the vaccine would not be safe? Or effective? Or purposely made to kill or injure people for some reason? Or maybe just kill POCs or Democrats?

Let's get into the details. The vaccine was developed independently in a very short period of time by multiple pharmaceutical companies working simultaneously. Thousands of brilliant scientists, technicians and researchers working ungodly hours for months straight. If there were something nefarious going on with the safety and efficacy data, don't you think there would be a least a few whistleblowers screaming from the get go? Or did Trump threaten them all and they all stayed silent? This is the same kind of lunacy we see with the people who believe the moon landing was a hoax. You just can't expect thousands of people to keep their mouth shut.

My first thought about ANYTHING or any claims coming out of the Trump Administration was that it was likely to be false.

This was an earned assumption. I also think that it was a deliberate strategy to foster distrust of all things science and all things government. It is incomprehensible to me that a sitting POTUS could actually publicly advocate for using bleach or UV light to treat COVID 19 but that's exactly what we had. And more than 450 Million deaths later, and still counting: we have a population that is basing their understanding and trust in medical science on the ravings of a lunatic, and personal political loyalty.

However, knowing that vaccines were given provisional authorized relieved any doubts and anxiety over the efficacy of the vaccines.

Your statement that the vaccine was developed in a very short period of time is misleading. MRNA vaccines have been studied for decades now.

You can read more here:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

and here: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w

Sorry not to include snippets of text but my mouse is not allowing me to do well with copy/past of blocks of text. I need a new mouse.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That doesn't address anything I said.

Actually it does, but let's not let things like that get in the way.

Let's get into the details. The vaccine was developed independently in a very short period of time by multiple pharmaceutical companies working simultaneously. Thousands of brilliant scientists, technicians and researchers working ungodly hours for months straight. If there were something nefarious going on with the safety and efficacy data, don't you think there would be a least a few whistleblowers screaming from the get go?

You mean like the whistleblowers that didn't exist while Trump was actively trying to get Congress and the VP to overthrow the election?

Or did Trump threaten them all and they all stayed silent? This is the same kind of lunacy we see with the people who believe the moon landing was a hoax. You just can't expect thousands of people to keep their mouth shut.

What is your point? There was concern about Trump fucking up the vaccine, much like he managed to fuck up most other things he touched. The asshole lied his ass off about the entire pandemic.

However, that the vaccines went through the large sized stage 3 trial (as well as the ones before it) and was shown to be effective and safe would likely explain why they people with reservations (mostly Democrats) were able to accept the approval and GOT VACCINATED! Meanwhile, a large number of conservatives refuse it. And when Vermont worked on making certain underserved and hesitant minority populations got immunized, they were attacked by the right wing.

You are pissing about a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[TomC]

I've heard this kind of distrust about the Trump administration vaccine development quite a bit, but could never wrap my head around the details. Were you concerned that Trump and/or his cronies were going to stand around in the lab telling Phizer scientists to add this or that (bleach?) and that that the scientists would say, "Um...Ok, you got it. You're the boss!". That's a whole new level of TDS conspiracy nuttery that makes my head spin.

Person perplexed by people having a trust problem with Donald Trump.

That doesn't address anything I said. What do you think was the focus of all the initial distrust? That Operation Warp Speed would be handled incompetently or would be a boondoggle? That's certainly a fair concern. If that was the case, then there would be no vaccine to be distrustful about. Or is it that the vaccine would not be safe? Or effective? Or purposely made to kill or injure people for some reason? Or maybe just kill POCs or Democrats?

Let's get into the details. The vaccine was developed independently in a very short period of time by multiple pharmaceutical companies working simultaneously. Thousands of brilliant scientists, technicians and researchers working ungodly hours for months straight. If there were something nefarious going on with the safety and efficacy data, don't you think there would be a least a few whistleblowers screaming from the get go? Or did Trump threaten them all and they all stayed silent? This is the same kind of lunacy we see with the people who believe the moon landing was a hoax. You just can't expect thousands of people to keep their mouth shut.

Crazyfingers explained it very well in post #4403.

Trump's deceit and corruption and tendency to choose loyalty over competence is extremely well documented. The possibility that it influenced the development and approval of the vaccines, prioritizing political ambitions over safety and effectiveness, was a far greater risk than with any other president in my lifetime.
Tom

 

[TSwizzle]

Operation Warp Speed was Trump’s greatest accomplishment. The lefties didn’t want Trump to get the credit so they did everything to tar it. But now the left gets to use the vaccine to indulge its authoritarian fantasies.

California won’t allow any distribution of coronavirus vaccines in the nation’s most populous state until it is reviewed by the state’s own panel of experts, Gov. Gavin Newsom said Monday. Vaccinations for the pandemic “will move at the speed of trust,” said Newsom, a Democrat, and the state wants its own independent review no matter who wins the presidential election next month. “Of course we won’t take anyone’s word for it,” Newsom said

News


I don't know if this review panel ever did anything.