Dem Post Mortem

[bilby]

Though if you think Republicans and Democrats are equally likely to use racial and sexual slurs in the age of Donald "Grabembythepussy" Trump

FWIW, I've seen far more blatant use of slurs by leftists than by rightists. In particular, I see hardcore progressive anti-racists use the N-word with abandon, under the pretence of putting those words into the mouth of someone they view as being right-wing (regardless of whether it's true). Over the past 20+ years of posting on various internet forums, I have yet to see an actual conservative use blatantly racist or sexist language ever... but I've seen such slurs posted by progressives many many times.

*spit take* Good ole Emily... forest and trees and what not.

Well I've been on boards the advocated women shouldn't hold jobs. But they didn't use the 'b-word' so I guess that is okay. We've had at least two blatantly anti-Semitic racists on this board (currently that number is one). But they didn't use particularly bad language. We did have one user temporarily that liked the word "negroid", but sometimes it is hard to tell if they are just trolling. But that user was probably while you were banned from posting here.

I didn't realize the language was what mattered most, not the ideas behind them.

^ This.

The concept of "bad words" is a religious one at heart - it's part of the magical thinking that underpins all religion to imagine that particular words have power in their own right.

But there are no bad words, only bad ideas.

And one very bad idea is the idea that some words are so bad that they should never be used, even if the context is the discussion of vocabulary. Saying "I would never call someone a nigger" is, to me, far less self-condemning than saying "I would never use the N-word"; Both express the same sentiment, but the latter also reveals that the speaker is in thrall to superstitious nonsense.

And the use of euphemism often gives bigots the false impression that they have avoided being bigoted, and the strong feeling that they should not be 'persecuted' or censured, simply because they avoided using 'bad words' when expressing their bad ideas.

"I am a good person, because I was overtly racist without using the N-word. You are a bad person, because you used the N-word when you correctly accused me of racism" is not a great analysis - but it is a shockingly common one.

 

[Jarhyn]

Though if you think Republicans and Democrats are equally likely to use racial and sexual slurs in the age of Donald "Grabembythepussy" Trump

FWIW, I've seen far more blatant use of slurs by leftists than by rightists. In particular, I see hardcore progressive anti-racists use the N-word with abandon, under the pretence of putting those words into the mouth of someone they view as being right-wing (regardless of whether it's true). Over the past 20+ years of posting on various internet forums, I have yet to see an actual conservative use blatantly racist or sexist language ever... but I've seen such slurs posted by progressives many many times.

*spit take* Good ole Emily... forest and trees and what not.

Well I've been on boards the advocated women shouldn't hold jobs. But they didn't use the 'b-word' so I guess that is okay. We've had at least two blatantly anti-Semitic racists on this board (currently that number is one). But they didn't use particularly bad language. We did have one user temporarily that liked the word "negroid", but sometimes it is hard to tell if they are just trolling. But that user was probably while you were banned from posting here.

I didn't realize the language was what mattered most, not the ideas behind them.

^ This.

The concept of "bad words" is a religious one at heart - it's part of the magical thinking that underpins all religion to imagine that particular words have power in their own right.

But there are no bad words, only bad ideas.

And one very bad idea is the idea that some words are so bad that they should never be used, even if the context is the discussion of vocabulary. Saying "I would never call someone a nigger" is, to me, far less self-condemning than saying "I would never use the N-word"; Both express the same sentiment, but the latter also reveals that the speaker is in thrall to superstitious nonsense.

To be fair, I like the ability to not have to say it. It is like... I don't want to have to communicate "circumcision" with the picture of a bloody mutilated dick. Sure, I could use that meme rather than the utterance "circumcision".

In some ways the word censors the concept, and divorces most people from the gut wrenching reality of a bloody sliced up penis. Most people feel really bad when they see a bloody sliced up penis and just using the right tone on the word says "I don't like what this word points at" without having to invoke mutilated dongs. Even the words "bloody mutilated penis" are pretty offensive. I'm saying them just like that to evoke that offense!

In the same way, hearing the word "nigger" does some injury to me. It is as objectionable to hear, for the immediate reminder of whips and chains and something for which I quietly seek the [redacted] of many for perpetuating and seeking a return thereto. It is a word I do not need the full weight bearing down upon me every time I hear it any more than a blacksmith's fire needs constant fanning: sometimes the steel must not be kept so hot lest the steel burn before it is forged into the proper blade.

As such, I do prefer "n-word" when there is no question to what that word is.

Shit, cunt, piss, fuck, chode; fart felching, santorum slurping dicks. I can say these things because we ought be comfortable with sex and some grossness! But that word? And the ones like it? I dislike them. I would rather not have Faggot evoked by anyone who did not live it, as a community of shared struggle...

Words do have the power to make people feel happy or sad or angry or ashamed or insulted or even sick, because words do have meanings and those meanings are triggered with respect, often enough, to the fullness of the utterance.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Though if you think Republicans and Democrats are equally likely to use racial and sexual slurs in the age of Donald "Grabembythepussy" Trump

FWIW, I've seen far more blatant use of slurs by leftists than by rightists. In particular, I see hardcore progressive anti-racists use the N-word with abandon, under the pretence of putting those words into the mouth of someone they view as being right-wing (regardless of whether it's true). Over the past 20+ years of posting on various internet forums, I have yet to see an actual conservative use blatantly racist or sexist language ever... but I've seen such slurs posted by progressives many many times.

*spit take* Good ole Emily... forest and trees and what not.

Well I've been on boards the advocated women shouldn't hold jobs. But they didn't use the 'b-word' so I guess that is okay. We've had at least two blatantly anti-Semitic racists on this board (currently that number is one). But they didn't use particularly bad language. We did have one user temporarily that liked the word "negroid", but sometimes it is hard to tell if they are just trolling. But that user was probably while you were banned from posting here.

I didn't realize the language was what mattered most, not the ideas behind them.

^ This.

The concept of "bad words" is a religious one at heart - it's part of the magical thinking that underpins all religion to imagine that particular words have power in their own right.

But there are no bad words, only bad ideas.

And one very bad idea is the idea that some words are so bad that they should never be used, even if the context is the discussion of vocabulary. Saying "I would never call someone a nigger" is, to me, far less self-condemning than saying "I would never use the N-word"; Both express the same sentiment, but the latter also reveals that the speaker is in thrall to superstitious nonsense.

And the use of euphemism often gives bigots the false impression that they have avoided being bigoted, and the strong feeling that they should not be 'persecuted' or censured, simply because they avoided using 'bad words' when expressing their bad ideas.

"I am a good person, because I was overtly racist without using the N-word. You are a bad person, because you used the N-word when you correctly accused me of racism" is not a great analysis - but it is a shockingly common one.

This is certainly in danger of a semantics rabbit hole. Words are merely vessels of vocabulary. They are given meaning based on the context in which they are used. Ultimately it is like as such, "But I didn't say that" is bankrupt when it is "what you really meant". This applies to all sorts of language, including the W Administration juxtapositioning Hussein with 9/11. Then the defense was, 'But W never said Hussein was part of 9/11.' It is a technicality of unimportance. It is the path of the guilty to feign false sense of offense.

Being offensive, having offensive ideals isn't restricted to one side or the other.

 

[laughing dog]

Though if you think Republicans and Democrats are equally likely to use racial and sexual slurs in the age of Donald "Grabembythepussy" Trump

FWIW, I've seen far more blatant use of slurs by leftists than by rightists. In particular, I see hardcore progressive anti-racists use the N-word with abandon, under the pretence of putting those words into the mouth of someone they view as being right-wing (regardless of whether it's true). Over the past 20+ years of posting on various internet forums, I have yet to see an actual conservative use blatantly racist or sexist language ever... but I've seen such slurs posted by progressives many many times.

*spit take* Good ole Emily... forest and trees and what not.

Well I've been on boards the advocated women shouldn't hold jobs. But they didn't use the 'b-word' so I guess that is okay. We've had at least two blatantly anti-Semitic racists on this board (currently that number is one). But they didn't use particularly bad language. We did have one user temporarily that liked the word "negroid", but sometimes it is hard to tell if they are just trolling. But that user was probably while you were banned from posting here.

I didn't realize the language was what mattered most, not the ideas behind them.

You forgot to mention the use of the word "honky" on this forum. It has been frequently used by one particular member, and he rarely, if ever, gets called out on it. I guess because its considered the "good kind" of racism.

Or that to many people, it isn't much of an insult nor is it associated with a long history of violence and legal discrimination.

 

[Elixir]

You forgot to mention the use of the word "honky" on this forum. It has been frequently used by one particular member, and he rarely, if ever, gets called out on it. I guess because its considered the "good kind" of racism.

Or that to many people, it isn't much of an insult nor is it associated with a long history of violence and legal discrimination.

Now, "cracker" otoh...
Seriously. This anti-honky discrimination is enough to make a good ol' boy like me want to move to Norway. It's fucking cold, but all the lower latitudes are full of people who might call me cracker, and that's the kind of discrimination I just cannot take!

 

[SLD]

Of course hard core racists don't typically go around hurling overtly racist insults.
Hard core racists have long since learned to express their racism in "acceptable" terms (dog whistles) lest they be called out.
Their apologists like to point to the critics' use of those same loaded words as proof of... well ... "I know you are, but what am I?"
A cursory examination of context usually reveals that the racism resides with the well-trained politically correct "Ah ain't no racist" types (depending on present company of course - get 'em in a back room and they'll let loose.).

You don’t know how true this is. As a southern white male, I see it quite often. Gross and openly racist comments. One business owner bragging that he never hires, “blacks”, only that’s not the word he used. Others openly praising Hitler, we should have been on his side.

 

[Elixir]

Of course hard core racists don't typically go around hurling overtly racist insults.
Hard core racists have long since learned to express their racism in "acceptable" terms (dog whistles) lest they be called out.
Their apologists like to point to the critics' use of those same loaded words as proof of... well ... "I know you are, but what am I?"
A cursory examination of context usually reveals that the racism resides with the well-trained politically correct "Ah ain't no racist" types (depending on present company of course - get 'em in a back room and they'll let loose.).

You don’t know how true this is. As a southern white male, I see it quite often. Gross and openly racist comments. One business owner bragging that he never hires, “blacks”, only that’s not the word he used. Others openly praising Hitler, we should have been on his side.

Yup. I’ve lived in FL, have a sister in Montgomery AL.. they got some good ol boys round there what’ll burn your ears ma’am, you get too close!

 

[TV and credit cards]

Of course hard core racists don't typically go around hurling overtly racist insults.
Hard core racists have long since learned to express their racism in "acceptable" terms (dog whistles) lest they be called out.
Their apologists like to point to the critics' use of those same loaded words as proof of... well ... "I know you are, but what am I?"
A cursory examination of context usually reveals that the racism resides with the well-trained politically correct "Ah ain't no racist" types (depending on present company of course - get 'em in a back room and they'll let loose.).

You don’t know how true this is. As a southern white male, I see it quite often. Gross and openly racist comments. One business owner bragging that he never hires, “blacks”, only that’s not the word he used. Others openly praising Hitler, we should have been on his side.

Oh it's not just Southern Man. My northern white ass will get that too. Any time they think they are in good company, they'll test the waters with an offhand comment.

 

[Swammerdami]

There have been dozens of opinion pieces trying to explain the Election Day disaster. "Trump has won the culture war: Progressive forces will need a bold new vision and a wide-ranging communication strategy if they are to stand a chance in future elections" is yet another one but presents an articulate explanation for the debacle and a prescription for possible remedies.

... During the second Obama term, far-right ideologue Stephen Bannon and right-wing financiers Robert and Rebekah Mercer got together with military propaganda experts from UK-based Strategic Communication Laboratories (SCL) to ... weaponise social media and wage a culture war, polarising American society and pitting large swaths of the electorate against perceived cultural elites.

... Cambridge Analytica ... harvested millions of Facebook profiles without authorisation, and developed big data models to influence specific voters in battleground states with personalised political advertisements that exploited voters’ inner fears and anxieties about key issues, such as the economy, terrorism and immigration.

... During Trump’s 2024 re-election campaign, the momentum of the culture war helped him warp objective reality into a fantasy world where the American economy allegedly reached near catastrophic status, and migrants were to blame for virtually every ill of American society – from high housing costs to the opioid crisis, from low wages to gun violence. The Republican ticket used fake news and emotionally charged narratives that amplified frustrations about a range of issues into resentment and even hate against not only migrants, but also transgender people, progressive activists, the Democratic leadership and Harris herself.

...

The first thing that Democrats and progressive forces need to do is to recognise that, while frank and open debate is needed to chart a way forward, acrimony and fragmentation will not serve them well: the harsher the infighting, the stronger Trump and his administration will be. ... A militant approach is needed here to sensitise people about the need for respectful democratic debate informed by science and accurate information, and about the harms to human rights posed by hate speech.
...
The second front on which Democrats and progressives must come together is crafting a bold and wide-ranging vision for the future that is in radical contrast with Trumpism. This new vision should uncompromisingly endorse humanism, racial and economic justice for American citizens and migrants alike, protection of LGBTQ rights, and global solidarity.

 

[marc]

Pretty good post-mortem here I think

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

Pretty good post-mortem here I think

Could you summarize his conclusion please, as the video is too long to watch?

 

[thebeave]

You forgot to mention the use of the word "honky" on this forum. It has been frequently used by one particular member, and he rarely, if ever, gets called out on it. I guess because its considered the "good kind" of racism.

Or that to many people, it isn't much of an insult nor is it associated with a long history of violence and legal discrimination.

Now, "cracker" otoh...
Seriously. This anti-honky discrimination is enough to make a good ol' boy like me want to move to Norway. It's fucking cold, but all the lower latitudes are full of people who might call me cracker, and that's the kind of discrimination I just cannot take!

Har har. Yes, its not a particularly insulting slur in the context of this forum and no, I'm not that bothered by it. I think that's because anti-white sentiment is at least somewhat normalized these days. However, if I was walking through a rough neighborhood where whites are a tiny minority and I heard that slur being used toward me, it would make me uncomfortable. The other point is, even if it isn't particularly demeaning or threatening here, why even use it all? The person/people who have used it has free will and could have chosen to not use the term. On top of that, it seems to be the so-called "progressives" that use such slurs, and yet don't they tout themselves as being "super not-racist"? If you are big supporters of Diversity, Equity and INCLUSION, why not practice what you preach? Its really not that hard to do.

And then there's this (getting back to Dem Post Mortem):

Progressives: Har, har...look at all those snowflakey whities getting their panties in a bunch about being called honkies! They just can't take it!!

A short time later...

Also, Progressives : I can't believe we lost the election...badly!! And the polling data says we are losing white people to the conservatives. How can this be?

 

[Politesse]

Progressives: Har, har...look at all those snowflakey whities getting their panties in a bunch about being called honkies! They just can't take it!!

What "progressives" use racial slurs? That kind of "humor" is moderate dem/rep bullshit.

 

[Elixir]

The other point is, even if it isn't particularly demeaning or threatening here, why even use it all?

Just for diversification of vocabulary? Because “cracker” could be mistaken for a snack food?
I have no idea. But I’m sure there’s a “why not?” argument out there, if someone wants to make it.

Also, Progressives : I can't believe we lost the election...badly!!

I hear progressives saying it was the closest election since 1888 or something.
What is the truth!?!
I WANT THE TRUTH, DAMMIT!
At less than 50% it couldn’t have been too big a rout. But to hear Republicans, it was like the 1990 Super Bowl. Looking back through pre-election posts, most “libs” were pretty pessimist.

 

[Elixir]

Pretty good post-mortem here I think

Could you summarize his conclusion please, as the video is too long to watch?

Just a guess: “everyone is stupid”?

 

[Emily Lake]

I didn't realize the language was what mattered most, not the ideas behind them.

"There's nothing at all wrong with me using blatantly and intentionally offensive language, because you see, I don't have any bad ideas behind them."

Perhaps not the argument you're going for, but whatever you need to tell yourself.

 

[Emily Lake]

And to be fair I get kind of preachy online.

Really? I hadn't noticed...

 

[bilby]

The reason Harris lost is twofold.

1) Republicans are such a bunch of fascist morons that they are prepared to vote for Donald Trump, twice.

2) About ten percent of Democrats will not vote for a woman as President under any circumstances whatsoever. They won't vote for Trump; If the D candidate is a woman, they just won't vote at all.

 

[Emily Lake]

And the polling data says we are losing white people to the conservatives.

Akchooalleee...

Dems lost share among minority groups. The only cohorts where Dems gained share was among white people.

 

[Harry Bosch]

There have been dozens of opinion pieces trying to explain the Election Day disaster. "Trump has won the culture war: Progressive forces will need a bold new vision and a wide-ranging communication strategy if they are to stand a chance in future elections" is yet another one but presents an articulate explanation for the debacle and a prescription for possible remedies.

... During the second Obama term, far-right ideologue Stephen Bannon and right-wing financiers Robert and Rebekah Mercer got together with military propaganda experts from UK-based Strategic Communication Laboratories (SCL) to ... weaponise social media and wage a culture war, polarising American society and pitting large swaths of the electorate against perceived cultural elites.

... Cambridge Analytica ... harvested millions of Facebook profiles without authorisation, and developed big data models to influence specific voters in battleground states with personalised political advertisements that exploited voters’ inner fears and anxieties about key issues, such as the economy, terrorism and immigration.

... During Trump’s 2024 re-election campaign, the momentum of the culture war helped him warp objective reality into a fantasy world where the American economy allegedly reached near catastrophic status, and migrants were to blame for virtually every ill of American society – from high housing costs to the opioid crisis, from low wages to gun violence. The Republican ticket used fake news and emotionally charged narratives that amplified frustrations about a range of issues into resentment and even hate against not only migrants, but also transgender people, progressive activists, the Democratic leadership and Harris herself.

...

The first thing that Democrats and progressive forces need to do is to recognise that, while frank and open debate is needed to chart a way forward, acrimony and fragmentation will not serve them well: the harsher the infighting, the stronger Trump and his administration will be. ... A militant approach is needed here to sensitise people about the need for respectful democratic debate informed by science and accurate information, and about the harms to human rights posed by hate speech.
...
The second front on which Democrats and progressives must come together is crafting a bold and wide-ranging vision for the future that is in radical contrast with Trumpism. This new vision should uncompromisingly endorse humanism, racial and economic justice for American citizens and migrants alike, protection of LGBTQ rights, and global solidarity.

I think that the Dems focused too much on DEI and justice for minorities! The above recommends doubling down on this!? We need to get back to stressing economic issues (the left can win here); get back to polices that benefit all Americans regardless of their race or orientation.