Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[bilby]

I say let the terminally ill speak for themselves if they can. Many of them want to live with dignity painlessly.

And many want to die with dignity, painlessly.

As you suggest, we should let them speak for themselves, and not forcibly kill anyone who doesn't want to die, nor forcibly keep alive anyone who doesn't want to live.

In most jurisdictions, the former right is protected, but the latter is not - at best, a terminally ill patient in hospital can refuse treatment intended to prolong their life, and perhaps choose to refuse food and water. Taking many days to die, in severe discomfort, of dehydration, because the government won't allow you to choose to die quickly and painlessly, is a massive cruelty on the part of that government.

That forcibly euthanising people would also be massively cruel (and has occurred in the past), isn't relevant to the question of whether a patient should be permitted to choose to die quickly and painlessly. It's a red herring.

The VAD law* about to come into effect here on January 1, has plenty of safeguards against abuse; Indeed, in my opinion it's still rather more restrictive than is necessary. It's certainly an improvement over the current situation, wherein hospital and hospice staff are required to keep people alive, even against their express wishes.




*Voluntary Assisted Dying, not to be confused with VAR, which is merely killing the game of football

 

[bilby]

Actually, one of the most outspoken groups opposing physician assisted suicide are the disability rights groups.

No group can reflect the opinions of all of those they claim to speak for.

Death is personal; It should be decided at an individual level whether someone has the right to request assistance with dying, not imposed upon individuals based on some misguided belief in the importance of democracy. Certainly not based on the pontificating of the leaders of activist organisations, who claim to represent swathes of humanity many of whom have never been consulted for their opinions.

Are you of the impression that the leaders of disability rights groups are elected by a vote amongst all of the disabled people they claim to speak for? Even if it were so (it's not), they would still not have the moral authority to override the express opinion of a single disabled individual.

You don't want to choose to die? That's fine. But you don't want me to have that choice either? That's not fine. That's you imposing your opinions on a decision that is about me, not you.

What you believe, should never be allowed to dictate what I decide, about something that primarily affects me.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

This is a very bad rationaliztion designed to deny a terminally ill, suffering person a right to die with dignity painlessly.

Why not allow people who are not terminally ill or suffering physically a right to die with dignity painlessly?

Well, according to Roman Catholic doctrine, life is sacred, and suffering is noble and virtuous.

You're evading the issue. Are you a Roman Catholic? If not, then what they say is irrelevant. My question remains: Why not allow people who are not terminally ill or suffering physically a right to die with dignity painlessly?

Other religions have similar bases for similarly opposing the right to die, and similarly use the specious argument that if people had the right to die, it could be abused to kill people who didn't want to die, and so it shouldn't be permitted.

Although I generally side with religious groups against euthanasia, I disagree with their reasons to oppose it. They oppose it for the purpose of appeasing a God who wants to mete out death exclusively. I oppose it to truly value and respect people and their lives.

But it is pointless to expect logical reasoning from religious zealots.

Anybody can be zealous. I've seen plenty of pro-death zeal--some of it on this thread.

 

[bilby]

This is a very bad rationaliztion designed to deny a terminally ill, suffering person a right to die with dignity painlessly.

Why not allow people who are not terminally ill or suffering physically a right to die with dignity painlessly?

Well, according to Roman Catholic doctrine, life is sacred, and suffering is noble and virtuous.

You're evading the issue. Are you a Roman Catholic? If not, then what they say is irrelevant.

I am not a Roman Catholic. I am mocking their position, which, as you agree, is irrelevant.

It's very widely considered to be highly relevant though, so it definitely needs to be mocked.

My question remains: Why not allow people who are not terminally ill or suffering physically a right to die with dignity painlessly?

Other religions have similar bases for similarly opposing the right to die, and similarly use the specious argument that if people had the right to die, it could be abused to kill people who didn't want to die, and so it shouldn't be permitted.

Although I generally side with religious groups against euthanasia, I disagree with their reasons to oppose it. They oppose it for the purpose of appeasing a God who wants to mete out death exclusively. I oppose it to truly value and respect people and their lives.

By disregarding their wishes in favour of your opinion? That's an odd form of "value and respect".

But it is pointless to expect logical reasoning from religious zealots.

Anybody can be zealous. I've seen plenty of pro-death zeal--some of it on this thread.

I have seen none. Could you quote an example?

I'm not 'pro-death'; I am pro-choice. Mentally competent adults shouldn't be forced to remain alive against their will. If you shouldn't have the right to decide to stop living, what decisions should you be permitted to make without giving a veto to society at large?

Is there anything that's more undeniably yours, than your own life?

Why should some other bastard have a say over your continued life? Why should society be allowed to respond to your decision that your life is no longer bearable, with "tough shit, we're keeping you alive to suffer regardless"?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"For many of us, physician assisted suicide is a means by which we can rid the world of people we do not value."

This is a very bad rationaliztion...

It's a fact of history that euthanasia, at least, has been used in exactly the way I describe. You may wish to learn about Germany's T4 program.

...designed to deny a terminally ill, suffering person a right to die with dignity painlessly.

That sounds nice, but in the real world, it hasn't always worked out that way. I say let the terminally ill speak for themselves if they can. Many of them want to live with dignity painlessly.

Living painlessly is the ideal but often beyond the power of modern medicine to accomplish.

Actually, one of the most outspoken groups opposing physician assisted suicide are the disability rights groups. It's ironic that they don't want your death for them considering that they are supposed to be the beneficiaries. Maybe they know better.

No. It's not about the disabled, it's about the suffering. There are a lot of ways of dying that are very unpleasant and where there's no hope of recovery.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

This is a very bad rationaliztion designed to deny a terminally ill, suffering person a right to die with dignity painlessly.

Why not allow people who are not terminally ill or suffering physically a right to die with dignity painlessly?

In fact people do this all the time. Overdosing on drugs, suicide by gunshot.

OK, then you advocate physician-assisted suicide for anybody who wants to kill themselves. Are you seeking it for yourself?

Making that against the law never stopped anyone.

That's a terrible argument. You can say the same for any kind of murder.

A bed ridden cancer patient dying in great pain and suffering is a far different situation.

Why not advocate for better care and pain management for those who are in pain? There's a lot of room for improvement.

And by the way, I've known people who were bedridden and in great discomfort. I was one of them. I got over it.

That is none of your business.

The lives of my friends and neighbors are indeed my business. Many of them are elderly and/or disabled and are in pain. I've yet to meet one of them who openly sought physician assisted suicide--at least not once they came to their senses. One thing they do struggle with is segregation in substandard housing. They literally live in fear of being incarcerated in abusive nursing homes. This gross injustice is no secret, yet I know of very few who advocate for their right to live.

Imagine that. Loud right to die support. Almost silent voices for the right to live.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I consider some of those against assisted suicide as “pro-life” in the same way that some against abortion are “pro-life”. in some circumstances an abortion is the most humane treatment; see some of the stories coming out now from states that are banning abortion.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The fact that some people do in fact commit suicide does not mean I champion physician assissted suicide for all. Don't put words in my mouth. Somebody who is dying and is in severe pain who desires physician assissted suicide is a different matter. Ignorant Christian busybodies who demand the right to interfere have no right to do so on their specious grounds. Let those Christian busy bodies instead deal with isues such as lack of available mental health care in many red states, resulting in despair and suicide instead pressure conservative politicians to stop making bad policies.

 

[southernhybrid]

The vast majority of people who choose assisted suicide are suffering from some of the most horrific diseases like advanced ALS, total paralysis, or terminal cancer to name a few examples. The laws do vary from country to country. I"m not sure of the most recent laws in Switzerland, but I think most at least in the past, anyone could opt for assisted suicide there, if I'm not mistaken. The states that make it legal in the US have much stricter laws, which usually include things like having less than 6 months to live. Imo, it's cruel not to offer help with dying to someone who is suffering from intractable pain and suffering if they desire to end their lives. The fact is that most people don't opt for assisted suicide as our survival mechanism is quite strong in most cases.

Without that option, a good hospice, and they are becoming rare these days, can provide comfortable end of life care. Hospice is permitted to administer drugs for comfort that may or may not shorten life. Dehydration is actually a very comfortable way to die, once the person no longer feels thirsty. I've watched a couple of people die from dehydration and it was a far better, less stressful way to die compared to the alternative. But, unless one loses the ability to swallow, very few people choose to die that way. They don't understand that being fully hydrated means more shortness of breath and suffering as they reach the end. Perhaps more people would choose that option if they understood it would reduce their suffering.

Suicide is a complex matter. There are people who may need help to prevent them from committing suicide. I'm primarily thinking of younger people who may be over reacting to a recent tragedy of some kind. For example, there was a girl in my high school who tried to kill herself after her boyfriend broke up with her. She used a gun and survived but ended up blind. Once she got over the breakup of the boyfriend, she wanted to live. If someone had known what she was planning, perhaps she could have been helped.

On the other hand, I can understand why an older adult with a new diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease might want to kill themselves. I know of one person who did that. I doubt that any physician would have helped her kill herself so she took on the job herself by literally blowing her brains out with a gun. Sure, her family was upset, but it was her right not to face the tragedy of dementia. My 97 year old mother lingers on with late stage dementia in a nursing home. Had she been given the option to be eased out of life before she reached this point, I feel fairly sure, despite her religious beliefs, that she may have opted for that choice. I say that because her biggest fear was living too long and ending up totally dependent. Sadly, that's what happened to my once very independent mother. But, one has to be cognitively intact to receive help with ending one's life, so there is no way for those with dementia to choose to be euthanized.

I've also known a couple of people who suffered from severe depression for most of their lives who eventually chose suicide. That included an uncle of mine. He tried for years to have his depression treated but nothing helped. His wife had left him as she could no longer deal with his misery. He had nothing to live for so he did what was the right thing for him. Would it be right to deny such individuals the chance to end their suffering?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This is a very bad rationaliztion designed to deny a terminally ill, suffering person a right to die with dignity painlessly.

Why not allow people who are not terminally ill or suffering physically a right to die with dignity painlessly?

Well, according to Roman Catholic doctrine, life is sacred, and suffering is noble and virtuous.

You're evading the issue. Are you a Roman Catholic? If not, then what they say is irrelevant. My question remains: Why not allow people who are not terminally ill or suffering physically a right to die with dignity painlessly?

The presumption is that one who isn't terminally ill, suffering physically, suffering mentally wouldn't actually want to die. Anyone that does, the question would be to determine if they need help to deal with this feeling.

Other religions have similar bases for similarly opposing the right to die, and similarly use the specious argument that if people had the right to die, it could be abused to kill people who didn't want to die, and so it shouldn't be permitted.

Although I generally side with religious groups against euthanasia, I disagree with their reasons to oppose it. They oppose it for the purpose of appeasing a God who wants to mete out death exclusively. I oppose it to truly value and respect people and their lives.

Apparently not enough to care what they think.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Good topic.

It's a very important topic.

I think we all have a right to choose to die.

If you're thinking about doing so, then I urge you to get help! Suicide prevention services are widely available.

Under certain conditions in old Japan suicide was considered honorable even mandatory under certain conditions.

Here in America it is illegal to urge a person to kill herself or himself. You could be charged with manslaughter.

I see it as the same argument for abortion rights, does a woman control her body? Do we all control our body?

Having possession of something obviously does not confer the right to do anything with that thing that one desires.

Legally no one can force medical treatment on us. If we are diagnosed with a condition which requires meds to live, we can refuse and die.

OK, I agree there. I'm totally against any kind of medical treatment being forced on a person.

Given how we view individual rights in general I don;t see how an adult choosing suicide is any different than any of our self destructive rights.

Actually, a lot of self-destructive behavior is illegal. It's not legal to lounge on a busy highway, for example, or to use dangerous drugs without the approval of a licensed doctor.

We can choose to drink and smoke taobacco heavily knowing the liklhood of lomg term effects. A slow motion suicide.

Actually, the use of tobacco and alcohol products is becoming more restricted these days and for good reasons. About three years ago the management of my building banned smoking in all but two small areas outside of the building. Smoking can harm other people because its carcinogens can spread via second-hand and even third-hand smoke. So what we do to ourselves often adversely affects other people.

I do not see how a right to suicide can be singled out above all the allowable self destructive ways people live.

Suicide can spread like an epidemic because many people become more likely to commit suicide if others do. Besides, suicide attempts can endanger other people.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I am down here in Texas. Our governor, newly re-elected Gregg Abbott lead a successful effort to cut $117 million from the Texas state budget for mental health care. And refused to open Medicare exchanges to offer decent health care for poor Texan citizens. Texas has the U.S. record for number of citizens with no medical insurance. Naturally, Texas now is a leader in states in numbers of deaths by suicide by people with mental health issues. Texas is very conservative and we have large numbers of religious, conservative politicians. We have, far, far greater problems than physician assisted suicide, or trans children who are now being legally denied medical care. Not to mention preventable deaths due to lack of health care for all.

 

[bilby]

Suicide can spread like an epidemic because many people become more likely to commit suicide if others do. Besides, suicide attempts can endanger other people.

Neither of these is true of physician assisted death for people with chronic pain and/or terminal illnesses.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Covid 19. Nothing to cause depression like losing a mother or father to covid 19 because of vax denialism thanks to Faux Noise et al.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Good topic.

It's a very important topic.

I think we all have a right to choose to die.

If you're thinking about doing so, then I urge you to get help! Suicide prevention services are widely available.

Under certain conditions in old Japan suicide was considered honorable even mandatory under certain conditions.

Here in America it is illegal to urge a person to kill herself or himself. You could be charged with manslaughter.

I see it as the same argument for abortion rights, does a woman control her body? Do we all control our body?

Having possession of something obviously does not confer the right to do anything with that thing that one desires.

Legally no one can force medical treatment on us. If we are diagnosed with a condition which requires meds to live, we can refuse and die.

OK, I agree there. I'm totally against any kind of medical treatment being forced on a person.

Given how we view individual rights in general I don;t see how an adult choosing suicide is any different than any of our self destructive rights.

Actually, a lot of self-destructive behavior is illegal. It's not legal to lounge on a busy highway, for example, or to use dangerous drugs without the approval of a licensed doctor.

We can choose to drink and smoke taobacco heavily knowing the liklhood of lomg term effects. A slow motion suicide.

Actually, the use of tobacco and alcohol products is becoming more restricted these days and for good reasons. About three years ago the management of my building banned smoking in all but two small areas outside of the building. Smoking can harm other people because its carcinogens can spread via second-hand and even third-hand smoke. So what we do to ourselves often adversely affects other people.

I do not see how a right to suicide can be singled out above all the allowable self destructive ways people live.

Suicide can spread like an epidemic because many people become more likely to commit suicide if others do. Besides, suicide attempts can endanger other people.

It’s not clear to me that any of this addresses whether an individual has a right to die.

And as I have stated before having a right doesn’t automatically mean that right is completely unregulated.

 

[TomC]

And as I have stated before having a right doesn’t automatically mean that right is completely unregulated.

This is so important. Nobody has a right that trumps the rights of others.

But this whole issue is so new, historically speaking, there's not much in the way of cultural norms much less ancient wisdom or whatever. If a patient wants euthanasia, is the hospital staff required to assist?
Competence isn't a binary, how competent must the patient be to make the decision?

I don't have any clear answers, but I've got a ton of questions. Those questions often get hand waved away by people with some simple solution that matches their ideological bent.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

this whole issue is so new, historically speaking, there's not much in the way of cultural norms much less ancient wisdom or whatever

Back in the day it was mostly Tragic Romance that gave people the luxury of casting themselves off bridges and the like. Everyone else was too busy trying to stay alive to worry a lot about (themselves or others) committing suicide.

 

[TomC]

Back in the day it was mostly Tragic Romance that gave people the luxury of casting themselves off bridges and the like. Everyone else was too busy trying to stay alive to worry a lot about (themselves or others) committing suicide.

Exactly.
People tend to form opinions based on vague, even fictional, anecdotes.

I'm more inclined to listen to folks like Sohy. People with up close, real life, experience. I know some in real life. They tend to be nuanced and conflicted on this subject.
Tom

 

[TomC]

I wish I remembered the title of an excellent book I once read. It was a drama set in a hospital. The main character was a nurse being accused of murder, because so many patients died on her shift. While she was in their room.

Long story short, she was the kind of person that dying people wanted to be with them as they died. They'd wait to die until she got there, then let go.

There's so much about the subject that isn't part of our normal world.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Back in the day it was mostly Tragic Romance that gave people the luxury of casting themselves off bridges and the like. Everyone else was too busy trying to stay alive to worry a lot about (themselves or others) committing suicide.

Exactly.
People tend to form opinions based on vague, even fictional, anecdotes.

...

I wish I remembered the title of an excellent book I once read. It was a drama set in a hospital. The main character was a nurse being accused of murder, because so many patients died on her shift. While she was in their room.

Long story short, she was the kind of person that dying people wanted to be with them as they died. They'd wait to die until she got there, then let go.

There's so much about the subject that isn't part of our normal world.
Tom

Yeah, that reminds me of watching a pair of loved ones die... and how actual dying isn't like in the books or movies.