Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[Unknown Soldier]

Okay Soldier. If it is about collective rights vs individual and cosequences do we have the right to lead an unhealthy life when iit affects others?s society as a whole?

I'm not sure if we have a right to live an unhealthy lifestyle. I see rights as what are good for us, and living an unhealthy isn't in that category, of course.

By the way, I don't think that rights are actual. They are rarely achieved ideals.

Drugs, alchohol. tobacco, and diet are major drivers of health care costs.

And that's one of the reasons why we restrict their use.

 

[excreationist]

@Unknown Soldier
I haven't thought through this very much but I was wondering what you thought.... (to see how practical/problematic your ideas are - though some might not be finalised yet)

Does ALL include teenagers and tweens? (even a 6 year old has committed suicide before)

So how easy do you think it should it be for them to have it done? Would a person who is not in physical pain have to wait at least a few days?

Perhaps the harder it is to get the better? (until you get to a certain point)

Should everyone who is affected be informed in advance? (like the person's parents or children)

 

[Shadowy Man]

So, we have the right to greatly endanger our lives but not take them?

Does Alex Honnold have the right to free solo El Capitan?

If he fell and died would that not have placed a burden on all those who would have to clean up his remains? What about the impacts on the children who saw it happen? If someone climbed and jumped off on purpose they wouldn’t have the same right as to climb but not want to fall?

 

[excreationist]

So, we have the right to greatly endanger our lives but not take them?

Though if the self harm is too extreme the authorities might forcefully stop you…

 

[excreationist]

@Unknown Soldier
Sorry I didn't read your whole post carefully first. So it seems you're actually against what I assumed your belief was involving... well that's very rude of me to do that. Sorry - again. I guess sometimes I don't think straight. (my amount of "working memory" is getting worse and I'm making bad assumptions)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Suicide is a complex matter. There are people who may need help to prevent them from committing suicide. I'm primarily thinking of younger people who may be over reacting to a recent tragedy of some kind. For example, there was a girl in my high school who tried to kill herself after her boyfriend broke up with her. She used a gun and survived but ended up blind. Once she got over the breakup of the boyfriend, she wanted to live. If someone had known what she was planning, perhaps she could have been helped.

Yup, this is the sort of person that needs help, not assistance in dying.

On the other hand, I can understand why an older adult with a new diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease might want to kill themselves. I know of one person who did that. I doubt that any physician would have helped her kill herself so she took on the job herself by literally blowing her brains out with a gun. Sure, her family was upset, but it was her right not to face the tragedy of dementia. My 97 year old mother lingers on with late stage dementia in a nursing home. Had she been given the option to be eased out of life before she reached this point, I feel fairly sure, despite her religious beliefs, that she may have opted for that choice. I say that because her biggest fear was living too long and ending up totally dependent. Sadly, that's what happened to my once very independent mother. But, one has to be cognitively intact to receive help with ending one's life, so there is no way for those with dementia to choose to be euthanized.

Half agree. I believe there should be options for euthanasia when condition X is reached. Say, ask me "Do you want to continue to live?" every month--if for three months I can't answer the question that should be taken as a no, bring the needle. I believe the Netherlands permits conditional requests but I don't know the details.

I've also known a couple of people who suffered from severe depression for most of their lives who eventually chose suicide. That included an uncle of mine. He tried for years to have his depression treated but nothing helped. His wife had left him as she could no longer deal with his misery. He had nothing to live for so he did what was the right thing for him. Would it be right to deny such individuals the chance to end their suffering?

Exactly--to me the important thing is whether something can be done about the problem. So long as it is permanent and the patient feels it makes life not worth living that's enough for me.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Suicide can spread like an epidemic because many people become more likely to commit suicide if others do. Besides, suicide attempts can endanger other people.

Neither of these is true of physician assisted death for people with chronic pain and/or terminal illnesses.

The first part is probably somewhat true.

I can easily see a couple in failing health, when one chooses to die the other chooses to follow as their partner was the balance between life being worth it or not. Also, I can easily see it when someone doesn't expect to outlive the grieving period. At that point the hell of having lost one's partner becomes effectively permanent.

The one suicide I know the motivations behind was that sort of situation--"treatable" but they weren't going to live long enough, it was de-facto permanent.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

If you have no right to die then society can force you to live.

It's odd that anybody would worry about being forced to live. Normally, the inverse, being forced to die, is what can cause anxiety.

But yes, in most developed countries these days including the USA suicide may not be illegal but emergency workers will normally move in to stop a suicide if possible "forcing a person to live." I think this practice is so widespread because civilized behavior involves protecting people from people, and that would include protecting people from themselves. If you really think this issue through, we should not only disallow suicide but other acts like self-mutilation should also be disallowed because people often make very foolish decisions they will regret later, and much of that regret can be rooted in the harm done to others.

No, I wouldn’t want someone shooting themselves near me or my children. But that doesnt mean they have no right to Die.

Then you may wish to designate "safe, self-shooting areas" where people can safely shoot themselves to death not shooting anybody else nearby.

It just means that that right like all the other have their limitations. We have the right to free speech but that right is not absolute.

We really don't have any rights at all which is one of the many difficulties with saying that dying is a right.

We likely have different concepts of what “right” means.

Yes, of course. I tend to favor preserving, valuing and enhancing human life, and that includes the lives of those who are often not valued.

Anyway, getting back to the OP, it looks like we really don't have a right to die. If there is a right to die, then that right is only granted to special individuals including the sick, the disabled, and the dying. People we do value and respect are denied that right. But that's OK; I don't think they really want it anyway.

 

[bilby]

It's odd that anybody would worry about being forced to live.

Clearly you have never faced severe pain that has no prospect of ending, other than at your death. Nor do you appear capable of imagining such a thing.

It's (thankfully) unusual for people to be in such a situation for very long; But "unusual" isn't "never", and those unfortunate enough to find themselves in that situation deserve more than having their condition ignored on the grounds that you are unimaginative or lacking in empathy, or on the basis that there are too few of them for you to care about.

 

[abaddon]

My mom and her sister both died of brain tumors and I might end up with the same. They each melted from the inside over a period of a few months. Alzheimers people do the same over years. If I get a diagnosis like either of those, I intend to commit suicide. I would rather someone assist me to do it painlessly, with no risk of botching it, with minimal shock to my friends and relatives.

If they consider me too mentally "gone" already to decide to die sooner instead of later, they'll in effect be forcing me to live. That's barbaric and cruel.

I don't see how assisted suicide in such a scenario can be characterized as under-valuing a life. Death with dignity is part of a life well-lived. Death with indignity is a life poorly lived at its endpoint. It's an act of valuing life and honoring the person to help a dying person to hurry up and die if that's their expressed preference.

Dying at, say, 75yo by falling asleep and never waking up again is a good death. Lasting longer, only to lose your mind across months and then eventually choke to death slowly, would be a needlessly ugly death.

I'm not sure what longevity matters anyway. Love of life doesn't require me to want an overly long life. The quality matters more than the quantity.

 

[TomC]

If they consider me too mentally "gone" already to decide to die sooner instead of later, they'll in effect be forcing me to live. That's barbaric and cruel.

There's another one of the modern complications that didn't exist of few decades ago.

You could, now, write out a Living Will. Make your future wishes clear. How much that will affect your future is hard to say. But you could.

Dayum, that would be hard. Facing all the possibilities clearly enough to write a document. I can't do it.
I'm not strong or clear minded enough to do that.

The people around me are just stuck dealing with it. The closest I've come is verbally expressing my wish to be cremated. But I don't expect anyone to do anything, after I'm gone, just because I said I wanted it. I won't want or even care about anything at that point.
Tom

 

[southernhybrid]

Why not advocate for better care and pain management for those who are in pain? There's a lot of room for improvement.

I've suffered from chronic pain for years. It's gotten so bad that I am planning on having knee replacement surgery after being too fearful of it for about a decade. My pain is in my hands, feet, and hips, as well as my knees. Narcotic pain relievers barely work for me any longer .I could ask for a higher dosage but I would eventually build up a tolerance and then what? NSAIDS, even when effective aren't very safe for people my age, so I use them sparingly along with my narcotic. I exercise and do the things that are supposed to help us deal with pain. I've reached the point where most things are ineffective for more than about 2 hours.

Most doctors won't even prescribe narcotic drugs any longer due to the small percentage of people who abused them or became physiologically addicted to them. I cared for countless numbers of people who suffered with severe pain. None of them wanted to die, but I would understand if some of them did want that option. If I were dependent and widowed, I think I would want to die. I would refuse any type of aggressive medical care and perhaps if I had the option of euthanasia, I'd take it. Like most people, I'd like to go gently in my sleep,
while eating my favorite foods etc. I've only had a few patients who went that way, and I was happy for them. One was a 96 year old woman who died while eating breakfast. The other one who died while eating her favorite food was in her 80s and had multiple medical problems. We should all be so lucky to go that way.

Sadly, most people suffer for weeks, months or years before the end comes. I once visited a home health patient who was in his 90s and had many medical problems. He was totally dependent. Whenever I pulled into his driveway, I'd hear him screaming: "Jesus, Lordy Lordy Lordy, please take me now". His family meant well and did the best they could to care for him. Do you really thing it's a good idea to deny one the option of a quick and painless death when they are in a situation like that? One of my sisters is currently psychotic due to a brain tumor. She has fought aggressive metastatic cancer for over three years. If she was in her right mind, do you honestly think she should be denied the right to die a quick and painless death if that's was her choice? I think it's cruel hat most states don't allow people to have that option.

Very few people opt for assisted suicide, but I've read that knowing they have that option helps a lot of people cope. I get that. I would like to have that option if I'm ever suffering to the point where I have no quality of life. You don't seem to understand what endless chronic pain, usually from joint or back deterioration is like. It's not the same as acute pain which eventually ends. I agree that we need better pain management, but it's a lot easier said than done. For years, there has been research attempting to develop a drug that isn't addictive that gives adequate pain relief to most people. So far....nada. Some people have very high tolerances to pain, while others have very low tolerance to pain. Living with pain is difficult. Treating pain is complicated and it rarely results in giving the individual an acceptable level of pain.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

It's odd that anybody would worry about being forced to live.

Clearly you have never faced severe pain that has no prospect of ending, other than at your death. Nor do you appear capable of imagining such a thing.

Clearly you presume way, way too much. On the contrary, I've been through hell and never fully recovered. I was in a bad accident in 1977 in which I sustained injuries that have disabled me to this day. I initially spent five months in a hospital. During my "rehabilitation" there I was neglected and abused by the nursing staff. I developed a bad ulceration on my tail bone because I had been bedridden for months, and the brilliant doctor there ordered the abusive nursing staff to literally force me to lie on my stomach while they taunted me knowing how much I hated it. While in that position I thought I was going to smother in my pillow. My roommates used to tell me how terrible it looked, and they were right! There's much, much more hell I have had to go through over the last 45 years, but that should be enough to say for now.

So if you want to judge me, then you might wish to know what you're talking about.

And now it's your turn. Please post your own experience with pain and suffering if you have one.

It's (thankfully) unusual for people to be in such a situation for very long; But "unusual" isn't "never", and those unfortunate enough to find themselves in that situation deserve more than having their condition ignored on the grounds that you are unimaginative or lacking in empathy, or on the basis that there are too few of them for you to care about.

I don't need to be imaginative because my empathy is based on real-life experience. I've been there, and I'll be there the rest of my life. I know my condition will worsen, and I'm frightened at the prospects of ending up in an abusive nursing home. I happen to know that what makes those places so bad isn't so much the inmates' conditions but the cruel, evil attitude many of the workers there have against those they see as "unworthy of life."

So in conclusion let me say that the worst pain a person can experience is to be seen as not valued or respected. And this phony "right to die" idea only fuels that fire. It's not compassion but contempt, and it has no place in any civilized society.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The vast majority of people who choose assisted suicide are suffering from some of the most horrific diseases like advanced ALS, total paralysis, or terminal cancer to name a few examples. The laws do vary from country to country. I"m not sure of the most recent laws in Switzerland, but I think most at least in the past, anyone could opt for assisted suicide there, if I'm not mistaken. The states that make it legal in the US have much stricter laws, which usually include things like having less than 6 months to live. Imo, it's cruel not to offer help with dying to someone who is suffering from intractable pain and suffering if they desire to end their lives. The fact is that most people don't opt for assisted suicide as our survival mechanism is quite strong in most cases.

Without that option, a good hospice, and they are becoming rare these days, can provide comfortable end of life care. Hospice is permitted to administer drugs for comfort that may or may not shorten life. Dehydration is actually a very comfortable way to die, once the person no longer feels thirsty. I've watched a couple of people die from dehydration and it was a far better, less stressful way to die compared to the alternative. But, unless one loses the ability to swallow, very few people choose to die that way. They don't understand that being fully hydrated means more shortness of breath and suffering as they reach the end. Perhaps more people would choose that option if they understood it would reduce their suffering.

Suicide is a complex matter. There are people who may need help to prevent them from committing suicide. I'm primarily thinking of younger people who may be over reacting to a recent tragedy of some kind. For example, there was a girl in my high school who tried to kill herself after her boyfriend broke up with her. She used a gun and survived but ended up blind. Once she got over the breakup of the boyfriend, she wanted to live. If someone had known what she was planning, perhaps she could have been helped.

On the other hand, I can understand why an older adult with a new diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease might want to kill themselves. I know of one person who did that. I doubt that any physician would have helped her kill herself so she took on the job herself by literally blowing her brains out with a gun. Sure, her family was upset, but it was her right not to face the tragedy of dementia. My 97 year old mother lingers on with late stage dementia in a nursing home. Had she been given the option to be eased out of life before she reached this point, I feel fairly sure, despite her religious beliefs, that she may have opted for that choice. I say that because her biggest fear was living too long and ending up totally dependent. Sadly, that's what happened to my once very independent mother. But, one has to be cognitively intact to receive help with ending one's life, so there is no way for those with dementia to choose to be euthanized.

I've also known a couple of people who suffered from severe depression for most of their lives who eventually chose suicide. That included an uncle of mine. He tried for years to have his depression treated but nothing helped. His wife had left him as she could no longer deal with his misery. He had nothing to live for so he did what was the right thing for him. Would it be right to deny such individuals the chance to end their suffering?

Thanks for the commentary, but I started this thread to get an answer to the question I asked in the OP: If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die? Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Sadly, most people suffer for weeks, months or years before the end comes. I once visited a home health patient who was in his 90s and had many medical problems. He was totally dependent. Whenever I pulled into his driveway, I'd hear him screaming: "Jesus, Lordy Lordy Lordy, please take me now". His family meant well and did the best they could to care for him. Do you really thing it's a good idea to deny one the option of a quick and painless death when they are in a situation like that? One of my sisters is currently psychotic due to a brain tumor. She has fought aggressive metastatic cancer for over three years. If she was in her right mind, do you honestly think she should be denied the right to die a quick and painless death if that's was her choice? I think it's cruel hat most states don't allow people to have that option.

Yup, requiring people like that to suffer is cruelty.

Very few people opt for assisted suicide, but I've read that knowing they have that option helps a lot of people cope. I get that. I would like to have that option if I'm ever suffering to the point where I have no quality of life. You don't seem to understand what endless chronic pain, usually from joint or back deterioration is like. It's not the same as acute pain which eventually ends. I agree that we need better pain management, but it's a lot easier said than done. For years, there has been research attempting to develop a drug that isn't addictive that gives adequate pain relief to most people. So far....nada. Some people have very high tolerances to pain, while others have very low tolerance to pain. Living with pain is difficult. Treating pain is complicated and it rarely results in giving the individual an acceptable level of pain.

We obsess too much about addiction. If someone's going to need it for the rest of their life anyway so what if they are "addicted"?

More of an issue is what happened with my father--he wasn't able to make memories anymore, presumably because of the morphine. (Although he did have pre-existing trouble with updating memory. He could learn new things but it was effectively impossible to correct past things. With the word processor I ended up having to tell him to fix nothing, let me clean it up and print it so he can go over it for anything I missed--in his mind backspace was a left arrow and the spacebar a right arrow, no matter how many times I explained otherwise it never made it to long term memory. His notion of what's a good price for something froze.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Thanks for the commentary, but I started this thread to get an answer to the question I asked in the OP: If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die? Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

My take on it: Is whatever is causing the person not to want to live permanent and can't be remedied. If so, I don't care what it is, they have a right to a peaceful death. If not, either they are not of sound mind or the medical system has failed them.

 

[bilby]

If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die? Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

Why not?

It's their life. Why should anyone have the right to say they cannot end it at a time of their choosing?

It's obviously an irreversible decision, so a cooling off period would make sense, to allow for the possibility that it's only a temporary desire. But apart from that, why on Earth would someone else have a say?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Thanks for the commentary, but I started this thread to get an answer to the question I asked in the OP: If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die? Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

My take on it: Is whatever is causing the person not to want to live permanent and can't be remedied. If so, I don't care what it is, they have a right to a peaceful death. If not, either they are not of sound mind or the medical system has failed them.

That's still not answering my question. It appears that the issue of granting the "right to die" is not an option for those we want and value. It's only for "those kind of people." It is "life unworthy of life."

 

[bilby]

It's odd that anybody would worry about being forced to live.

Clearly you have never faced severe pain that has no prospect of ending, other than at your death. Nor do you appear capable of imagining such a thing.

Clearly you presume way, way too much. On the contrary, I've been through hell and never fully recovered. I was in a bad accident in 1977 in which I sustained injuries that have disabled me to this day. I initially spent five months in a hospital. During my "rehabilitation" there I was neglected and abused by the nursing staff. I developed a bad ulceration on my tail bone because I had been bedridden for months, and the brilliant doctor there ordered the abusive nursing staff to literally force me to lie on my stomach while they taunted me knowing how much I hated it. While in that position I thought I was going to smother in my pillow. My roommates used to tell me how terrible it looked, and they were right! There's much, much more hell I have had to go through over the last 45 years, but that should be enough to say for now.

So if you want to judge me, then you might wish to know what you're talking about.

And now it's your turn. Please post your own experience with pain and suffering if you have one.

It's (thankfully) unusual for people to be in such a situation for very long; But "unusual" isn't "never", and those unfortunate enough to find themselves in that situation deserve more than having their condition ignored on the grounds that you are unimaginative or lacking in empathy, or on the basis that there are too few of them for you to care about.

I don't need to be imaginative because my empathy is based on real-life experience. I've been there, and I'll be there the rest of my life. I know my condition will worsen, and I'm frightened at the prospects of ending up in an abusive nursing home. I happen to know that what makes those places so bad isn't so much the inmates' conditions but the cruel, evil attitude many of the workers there have against those they see as "unworthy of life."

So in conclusion let me say that the worst pain a person can experience is to be seen as not valued or respected. And this phony "right to die" idea only fuels that fire. It's not compassion but contempt, and it has no place in any civilized society.

I stand by my accusation. You think that because you can tolerate your pain, others can too - which is a lack of both imagination and empathy on your part.

You haven't experienced sufficiently severe pain, and you can't imagine that it might exist.

I decline your invitation to a pissing contest; You are unreasonable in declaring that because you don't want to die, nobody else will either.

 

[excreationist]

So in conclusion let me say that the worst pain a person can experience is to be seen as not valued or respected. And this phony "right to die" idea only fuels that fire. It's not compassion but contempt, and it has no place in any civilized society.

Surely a person's "worst pain" depends on their personality. For me I think the worst pain I could experience would be being tortured by a professional for years... BTW you don't really seem to value or respect me any more but that's ok I guess. I agree that not being valued or respected can make people feel bad but I don't think it is universally "the worst pain a person can experience".