Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[southernhybrid]

It's odd that anybody would worry about being forced to live.

Clearly you have never faced severe pain that has no prospect of ending, other than at your death. Nor do you appear capable of imagining such a thing.

Clearly you presume way, way too much. On the contrary, I've been through hell and never fully recovered. I was in a bad accident in 1977 in which I sustained injuries that have disabled me to this day. I initially spent five months in a hospital. During my "rehabilitation" there I was neglected and abused by the nursing staff. I developed a bad ulceration on my tail bone because I had been bedridden for months, and the brilliant doctor there ordered the abusive nursing staff to literally force me to lie on my stomach while they taunted me knowing how much I hated it. While in that position I thought I was going to smother in my pillow. My roommates used to tell me how terrible it looked, and they were right! There's much, much more hell I have had to go through over the last 45 years, but that should be enough to say for now.

So if you want to judge me, then you might wish to know what you're talking about.

And now it's your turn. Please post your own experience with pain and suffering if you have one.

It's (thankfully) unusual for people to be in such a situation for very long; But "unusual" isn't "never", and those unfortunate enough to find themselves in that situation deserve more than having their condition ignored on the grounds that you are unimaginative or lacking in empathy, or on the basis that there are too few of them for you to care about.

I don't need to be imaginative because my empathy is based on real-life experience. I've been there, and I'll be there the rest of my life. I know my condition will worsen, and I'm frightened at the prospects of ending up in an abusive nursing home. I happen to know that what makes those places so bad isn't so much the inmates' conditions but the cruel, evil attitude many of the workers there have against those they see as "unworthy of life."

So in conclusion let me say that the worst pain a person can experience is to be seen as not valued or respected. And this phony "right to die" idea only fuels that fire. It's not compassion but contempt, and it has no place in any civilized society.

I stand by my accusation. You think that because you can tolerate your pain, others can too - which is a lack of both imagination and empathy on your part.

You haven't experienced sufficiently severe pain, and you can't imagine that it might exist.

I decline your invitation to a pissing contest; You are unreasonable in declaring that because you don't want to die, nobody else will either.

Everyone has a different tolerance to pain too. It used to really piss me off when some of the staff where I worked were judgmental because some of the residents needed a fairly high dosage of narcotics to ease their pain. The staff were mostly young women who had very little education or experience. They had no idea what it's like to live with chronic pain. The sad thing about pain control is that over time, most of us build up a tolerance to narcotics and they become close to worthless.

My late father was on high doses of narcotics for the last 20 years of his life, but he would never have chosen assisted suicide, despite his poorly controlled pain and his misery. Most people don't choose the option of euthanasia, but it should be available for those who do. I think that's the point that most of us are trying to make. We should have autonomy over our bodies. We should have the right to refuse medical care and the right to end our lives humanely, if we reach the point where death is seen as a relief from suffering, especially after other options have been exhausted.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die? Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

Why not?

It's their life. Why should anyone have the right to say they cannot end it at a time of their choosing?

It's obviously an irreversible decision, so a cooling off period would make sense, to allow for the possibility that it's only a temporary desire. But apart from that, why on Earth would someone else have a say?

Uh, maybe others would have a say because they love the suicidal person and would see that person's death as a great loss.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I stand by my accusation.

When I started this thread my intention was to see if there is any discrimination against unwanted people behind the enthusiasm for euthanasia. Now I see that at least one euthanasia proponent is accusing me of thought crime. I haven't failed to notice that such proponents preach the freedom of people to decide to take their own lives, but they will grant nobody the freedom to disagree with that doctrine. Those who do disagree are branded as heretics accused of opposing a sacred dogma.

You think that because you can tolerate your pain, others can too - which is a lack of both imagination and empathy on your part.

I see you oppose my way of thinking. Religious zealots also oppose any thought they fear is not consistent with their beliefs.

You haven't experienced sufficiently severe pain, and you can't imagine that it might exist.

I'm wondering how you can know what you're asserting here. I'm also wondering what "sufficiently severe pain" is.

I decline your invitation to a pissing contest;

Anger and cursing is also a common reaction on the part of anybody who fears a sacred belief of theirs is being exposed. Refusal to offer relevant evidence is also common among religious fundamentalists when their dogmas are under fire.

You are unreasonable in declaring that because you don't want to die, nobody else will either.

I am guilty as charged! Yes, I tend to prefer that I along with others live on. What punishment do you sentence me to for having that preference?

Anyway, everything you're starting to argue is an ad hominem fallacy. Can we get back to the topic I started in the OP: Is euthanasia discrimination against unwanted people?

 

[bilby]

If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die? Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

Why not?

It's their life. Why should anyone have the right to say they cannot end it at a time of their choosing?

It's obviously an irreversible decision, so a cooling off period would make sense, to allow for the possibility that it's only a temporary desire. But apart from that, why on Earth would someone else have a say?

Uh, maybe others would have a say because they love the suicidal person and would see that person's death as a great loss.

And those people would be putting their own selfish concerns ahead of the opinions of the individual concerned, so why should they get a veto?

If you love someone, stopping them from doing something that they really want to do, for your own selfish emotional benefit, is a very odd way to show it.

 

[atrib]

While I understand the hardship and futility of knowing that a friend or family member is in such a terrible situation, one question I've never received an answer to is this one: If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die?

Correct. It is my body, and therefore, the right to live or die is mine.

Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

Anybody, if they so choose.

So if, say, a young, handsome, and strong man is despondent over a divorce and cannot bear to live, we should do what we can to help him to live on. Suicide is out of the question; he's too good to let go of.

Why is it out of the question?

So if you don't see my point, then let me spell it out for you: For many of us, physician assisted suicide is a means by which we can rid the world of people we do not value. That's why those of us we value have no "right" to die.

You are not making sense. Allowing people to voluntarily end their own lives that they no longer wish to live is not the same thing as getting rid of people we do not value. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

 

[bilby]

When I started this thread my intention was to see if there is any discrimination against unwanted people behind the enthusiasm for euthanasia.

The answer is "No", verging on "Hell, no!".

But that's not the question you asked, and it's not what anyone has been discussing - particularly not you.

 

[bilby]

I stand by my accusation.

When I started this thread my intention was to see if there is any discrimination against unwanted people behind the enthusiasm for euthanasia. Now I see that at least one euthanasia proponent is accusing me of thought crime.

Oh, knock off the melodrama. Nobody's doing any such thing. I am pointing out your errors, both logical and moral; And you don't like it.

I haven't failed to notice that such proponents preach the freedom of people to decide to take their own lives, but they will grant nobody the freedom to disagree with that doctrine.

Nonsense. You can be (and are) exactly as wrong as you want to be. Again, pointing out your errors isn't abridging any if your rights, nor does it impose on your freedom to continue to be wrong.

Those who do disagree are branded as heretics accused of opposing a sacred dogma.

Not by me.

There's no dogmatism from me, other than a belief in freedom of action for individuals when it comes to matters that affect them FAR more than they affect anyone else.

You think that because you can tolerate your pain, others can too - which is a lack of both imagination and empathy on your part.

I see you oppose my way of thinking. Religious zealots also oppose any thought they fear is not consistent with their beliefs.

I don't oppose your way of thinking. I am merely pointing out that it contains glaring errors of fact as its basis, and so reaches wildly incorrect conclusions.

You haven't experienced sufficiently severe pain, and you can't imagine that it might exist.

I'm wondering how you can know what you're asserting here. I'm also wondering what "sufficiently severe pain" is.

Sufficient to drive its sufferer to suicide.

Duh.

I decline your invitation to a pissing contest;

Anger and cursing is also a common reaction on the part of anybody who fears a sacred belief of theirs is being exposed.

Jesus fucking Christ, you thing "pissing competition" is cursing?

How the fuck do you even manage to communicate at all?

Refusal to offer relevant evidence is also common among religious fundamentalists when their dogmas are under fire.

You mean, like accusing their interlocutor of using foul language, as an excuse not to even consider their actual arguments?

Yes, I'd noticed that.

You are unreasonable in declaring that because you don't want to die, nobody else will either.

I am guilty as charged! Yes, I tend to prefer that I along with others live on. What punishment do you sentence me to for having that preference?

Being ignored and thought a selfish and immoral fool is probably sufficient.

You can prefer anything you like for yourself. It's when you imagine that others should give crap the first about your preferences for them, that you fuck up royally.

Is there a single American left who understands the basic meaning of the word "freedom"?

Anyway, everything you're starting to argue is an ad hominem fallacy.

Pot, have you met Kettle?

Can we get back to the topic I started in the OP: Is euthanasia discrimination against unwanted people?

That's not the topic you started in the OP.

That you think it is, explains a lot about why you are so badly wrong.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I stand by my accusation.

When I started this thread my intention was to see if there is any discrimination against unwanted people behind the enthusiasm for euthanasia. Now I see that at least one euthanasia proponent is accusing me of thought crime.

Oh, knock off the melodrama. Nobody's doing any such thing. I am pointing out your errors, both logical and moral; And you don't like it.

I haven't failed to notice that such proponents preach the freedom of people to decide to take their own lives, but they will grant nobody the freedom to disagree with that doctrine.

Nonsense. You can be (and are) exactly as wrong as you want to be. Again, pointing out your errors isn't abridging any if your rights, nor does it impose on your freedom to continue to be wrong.

Those who do disagree are branded as heretics accused of opposing a sacred dogma.

Not by me.

I am branding you a fool who can't follow the simple train of his own logic. There's no dogmatism from me, other than a belief in freedom of action for individuals when it comes to matters that affect them FAR more than they affect anyone else.

You think that because you can tolerate your pain, others can too - which is a lack of both imagination and empathy on your part.

I see you oppose my way of thinking. Religious zealots also oppose any thought they fear is not consistent with their beliefs.

I don't oppose your way of thinking. I am merely pointing out that it contains glaring errors of fact as its basis, and so reaches wildly incorrect conclusions.

You haven't experienced sufficiently severe pain, and you can't imagine that it might exist.

I'm wondering how you can know what you're asserting here. I'm also wondering what "sufficiently severe pain" is.

Sufficient to drive its sufferer to suicide.

Duh.

I decline your invitation to a pissing contest;

Anger and cursing is also a common reaction on the part of anybody who fears a sacred belief of theirs is being exposed.

Jesus fucking Christ, you thing "pissing competition" is cursing?

How the fuck do you even manage to communicate at all?

Refusal to offer relevant evidence is also common among religious fundamentalists when their dogmas are under fire.

You mean, like accusing their interlocutor of using foul language, as an excuse not to even consider their actual arguments?

Yes, I'd noticed that.

You are unreasonable in declaring that because you don't want to die, nobody else will either.

I am guilty as charged! Yes, I tend to prefer that I along with others live on. What punishment do you sentence me to for having that preference?

Being ignored and thought a selfish and immoral fool is probably sufficient.

You can prefer anything you like for yourself. It's when you imagine that others should give crap the first about your preferences for them, that you fuck up royally.

Is there a single American left who understands the basic meaning of the word "freedom"?

Anyway, everything you're starting to argue is an ad hominem fallacy.

Pot, have you met Kettle?

Can we get back to the topic I started in the OP: Is euthanasia discrimination against unwanted people?

That's not the topic you started in the OP.

That you think it is, explains a lot about why you are so badly wrong.

Kuh-lick!

I do hope that everybody here takes notice of the mentality behind the religious zeal of death fundamentalism.

 

[abaddon]

This topic needs more clarification. And less... or really NO... bizarre non sequiturs about "death fundamentalism" and assisted suicide as the devaluing of unwanted types of people.

I have a right to live how I want to live (within the limits that all rights necessarily have).

If I can't live how I want, I can try to change that. If I can't live without a degree of suffering that ruins my life, and there's little to no hope of changing that, then I might choose to commit suicide. But it's not a matter of a "right to die".

It's about a right to live as I want (namely, to live without abject misery).

Does it mean I have no right to live (and die) how I want if a physician won't help me to die upon request? No, he can make his own choice about his own right to live as he wants. His choice does not determine the existence or non-existence of my rights.

 

[TomC]

Kuh-lick!

I do hope that everybody here takes notice of the mentality behind the religious zeal of death fundamentalism.

For what it's worth, the intended subject of your OP wasn't clear. What you're talking about is very different from what the rest of us are talking about.

We're talking about striking a balance between keeping people alive until a natural death and helping people who are suffering "die with dignity".
Tom

 

[atrib]

I do hope that everybody here takes notice of the mentality behind the religious zeal of death fundamentalism.

Death fundamentalism - is that really a fair characterization of what bilby was talking about? Fucking disingenuous!

 

[Shadowy Man]

My mother has a DNR. If there is no right to die then should that be illegal?

 

[excreationist]

So in conclusion let me say that the worst pain a person can experience is to be seen as not valued or respected. And this phony "right to die" idea only fuels that fire. It's not compassion but contempt, and it has no place in any civilized society.

Surely a person's "worst pain" depends on their personality. For me I think the worst pain I could experience would be being tortured by a professional for years... BTW you don't really seem to value or respect me any more but that's ok I guess. I agree that not being valued or respected can make people feel bad but I don't think it is universally "the worst pain a person can experience".

So you ignored my post confirming my belief that you no longer value or respect me. So you don't mind if you are contributing to "the worst pain a person can experience".... Perhaps you believe I deserve it.

 

[excreationist]

My mother has a DNR. If there is no right to die then should that be illegal?

Apparently DNR is a form of passive euthanasia which is "intentionally letting a patient die by withholding artificial life support such as a ventilator or feeding tube". That is much less controversial than active euthanasia.

Euthanasia - MU School of Medicine

Learn more about the ethical implications of euthanasia.

medicine.missouri.edu

 

[atrib]

So in conclusion let me say that the worst pain a person can experience is to be seen as not valued or respected. And this phony "right to die" idea only fuels that fire. It's not compassion but contempt, and it has no place in any civilized society.

Surely a person's "worst pain" depends on their personality. For me I think the worst pain I could experience would be being tortured by a professional for years... BTW you don't really seem to value or respect me any more but that's ok I guess. I agree that not being valued or respected can make people feel bad but I don't think it is universally "the worst pain a person can experience".

So you ignored my post confirming my belief that you no longer value or respect me. So you don't mind if you are contributing to "the worst pain a person can experience".... Perhaps you believe I deserve it.

You're just a death fundamentalist.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

While I understand the hardship and futility of knowing that a friend or family member is in such a terrible situation, one question I've never received an answer to is this one: If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die?

Correct. It is my body, and therefore, the right to live or die is mine.

I don't know where you live, but here in the USA at least there is no such right.

Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

Anybody, if they so choose.

I'm not sure if I believe you here. I've yet to hear anybody seriously advocating the right to die for just anybody. Only the infirm are to be killed.

So if, say, a young, handsome, and strong man is despondent over a divorce and cannot bear to live, we should do what we can to help him to live on. Suicide is out of the question; he's too good to let go of.

Why is it out of the question?

I just said that "he's too good to let go of."

So if you don't see my point, then let me spell it out for you: For many of us, physician assisted suicide is a means by which we can rid the world of people we do not value. That's why those of us we value have no "right" to die.

You are not making sense. Allowing people to voluntarily end their own lives that they no longer wish to live is not the same thing as getting rid of people we do not value.

Sometimes people are goaded into committing suicide. Their "voluntarily" deciding to take their own lives might actually result from being pressured to do so. If they no longer wish to live, then it is often a result of abuse.

And it's only fair to warn you that if you encourage a person to commit suicide, then you can do prison time for manslaughter.

 

[Elixir]

I just said that "he's too good to let go of."

Good job. You just caused 27 children to be brutally murdered. That guy was so despondent, he picked up his AR and drove to the nearest school… he wanted assisted suicide, but was forced to go with police-assisted suicide! All because you imposed your value judgment on his life.

 

[TomC]

Lemme throw this in.

I read an account of a youngish woman, happily married mother of two toddlers. Somewhere towards the end of her first trimester, pregnant with baby number three, she was diagnosed with an ugly and aggressive form of cancer.
The doctors were very clear. She needed heavy chemo and radiation therapy. This would be disastrous for her fetal child. "Get an abortion, so we can get you cancer treatments starting immediately."

She refused. She and hubby were solidly ProLife Christians. But even he begged her to do what the doctors said to do. She wouldn't do it, "The Lord Will Provide!".

She gave birth to the baby. By then the cancer was way beyond control, she was dead in a month. Left her husband a grieving widower with three tiny kids.

Her Choice?
ProLife?
Christian?

I'm not seeing any clear bright lines.

Humans are messy.
Tom

 

[excreationist]

So in conclusion let me say that the worst pain a person can experience is to be seen as not valued or respected. And this phony "right to die" idea only fuels that fire. It's not compassion but contempt, and it has no place in any civilized society.

Surely a person's "worst pain" depends on their personality. For me I think the worst pain I could experience would be being tortured by a professional for years... BTW you don't really seem to value or respect me any more but that's ok I guess. I agree that not being valued or respected can make people feel bad but I don't think it is universally "the worst pain a person can experience".

So you ignored my post confirming my belief that you no longer value or respect me. So you don't mind if you are contributing to "the worst pain a person can experience".... Perhaps you believe I deserve it.

You're just a death fundamentalist.

That would explain why he wants to contribute to me experiencing “the worst pain a person can experience” by ignoring me…

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I just said that "he's too good to let go of."

Good job. You just caused 27 children to be brutally murdered. That guy was so despondent, he picked up his AR and drove to the nearest school… he wanted assisted suicide, but was forced to go with police-assisted suicide! All because you imposed your value judgment on his life.

That's horrible! Was it Bilby or Atrib this time?