Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[Shadowy Man]

My mother has a DNR. If there is no right to die then should that be illegal?

Apparently DNR is a form of passive euthanasia which is "intentionally letting a patient die by withholding artificial life support such as a ventilator or feeding tube". That is much less controversial than active euthanasia.

Euthanasia - MU School of Medicine

Learn more about the ethical implications of euthanasia.

medicine.missouri.edu

So, if doctors are allowed to stand by while you die base ona decision you legally made while you were mentally sound it would appear you have the right to die.

 

[Elixir]

You can take away my right to suicide when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

Ironically, the only way to maintain the right to suicide is to not do it.

 

[excreationist]

My mother has a DNR. If there is no right to die then should that be illegal?

Apparently DNR is a form of passive euthanasia which is "intentionally letting a patient die by withholding artificial life support such as a ventilator or feeding tube". That is much less controversial than active euthanasia.

Euthanasia - MU School of Medicine

Learn more about the ethical implications of euthanasia.

medicine.missouri.edu

So, if doctors are allowed to stand by while you die base ona decision you legally made while you were mentally sound it would appear you have the right to die.

It seems passive euthanasia involves the right to have artificial life support withheld.

 

[excreationist]

I just said that "he's too good to let go of."

Good job. You just caused 27 children to be brutally murdered. That guy was so despondent, he picked up his AR and drove to the nearest school… he wanted assisted suicide, but was forced to go with police-assisted suicide! All because you imposed your value judgment on his life.

I think the motivation for that hypothetical massacre might have involved him feeling like he wasn't sufficiently valued or respected ("the worst pain a person can experience")... he might have felt angry and like a victim. If he didn't feel so self-entitled he would have just used a gun to kill himself - or aim at a cop for regular suicide-by-cop.

 

[Shadowy Man]

My mother has a DNR. If there is no right to die then should that be illegal?

Apparently DNR is a form of passive euthanasia which is "intentionally letting a patient die by withholding artificial life support such as a ventilator or feeding tube". That is much less controversial than active euthanasia.

Euthanasia - MU School of Medicine

Learn more about the ethical implications of euthanasia.

medicine.missouri.edu

So, if doctors are allowed to stand by while you die base ona decision you legally made while you were mentally sound it would appear you have the right to die.

It seems passive euthanasia involves the right to have artificial life support withheld.

And that will result in your death. I contend you are not disagreeing with me here.

 

[excreationist]

It seems passive euthanasia involves the right to have artificial life support withheld.

And that will result in your death. I contend you are not disagreeing with me here.

I see a difference between passive euthanasia and going to a doctor and asking for prompt assisted suicide.

 

[Shadowy Man]

It seems passive euthanasia involves the right to have artificial life support withheld.

And that will result in your death. I contend you are not disagreeing with me here.

I see a difference between passive euthanasia and going to a doctor and asking for prompt assisted suicide.

Sure they are different but with respect or the intellectual idea of “right to die”?

If there were not a *right* to die then DNRs wouldn’t be legal.

 

[southernhybrid]

https://euthanasia.procon.org/states-with-legal-physician-assisted-suicide/

There are currently only 11 states in the US that permit legal physician suicide. The about link explains the requirements. Unless I missed something, all but one state requires that the person have a life expectancy of 6 months of less. It seems cruel to me to deny such people the right to have help to end their lives. Other countries sometimes have far more liberal requirements, but since most of us live in the US, I thought I'd post the requirements for the US. I'd be interested in learning the requirements in other countries if someone wants to give that info.

I don't think that a DNR or refusing life support is in any way related to assisted suicide. We all have the right to refuse any type of medical care, especially aggressive end of life medical care. My Advanced Directive already states that if I'm not fully conscious, I don't want to be put on life support. That type of care rarely results in the survival of the person and it's usually very uncomfortable. For example, an aunt of my spouse asked for life support when her organs started to fail, but then asked to be taken off after two days. She died quickly after that. It's mostly very old adults or terminally ill folks who ask to have a DNR order. CPR has a fairly small success rate and sometimes it leaves the person in a vegetative state. That happened to a neighbor of mine after she was resuscitated. I think her family had her taken off of life support. That isn't suicide. It's just allowing nature to take its course.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It seems passive euthanasia involves the right to have artificial life support withheld.

And that will result in your death. I contend you are not disagreeing with me here.

I see a difference between passive euthanasia and going to a doctor and asking for prompt assisted suicide.

Sure they are different but with respect or the intellectual idea of “right to die”?

If there were not a *right* to die then DNRs wouldn’t be legal.

As SH notes, DNRs are extremely passive "right to die". Hospice, I believe one signs off on not being resuscitated and treatment is merely for comfort sake. IE, they'll give you medicine for the fever, but if the heart stops, they aren't running in. Actually, the best part of a palliative care wing is there is a lot less beeping.

I'm wandering off here. The point was, the best in America right now is being able to stop excessive treatment if certain serious conditions exist or are met. It isn't as much a right to die as it is being allowed to die instead of using extreme measures to allow someone to survive but be in a medically agreed terrible condition (typically involving a coma).

 

[bilby]

I'd be interested in learning the requirements in other countries if someone wants to give that info.

I posted details of the new Voluntary Assisted Dying law in Queensland earlier in the thread. It comes into effect on January 1.

 

[southernhybrid]

I'd be interested in learning the requirements in other countries if someone wants to give that info.

I posted details of the new Voluntary Assisted Dying law in Queensland earlier in the thread. It comes into effect on January 1.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

My mother has a DNR. If there is no right to die then should that be illegal?

Apparently DNR is a form of passive euthanasia which is "intentionally letting a patient die by withholding artificial life support such as a ventilator or feeding tube". That is much less controversial than active euthanasia.

Euthanasia - MU School of Medicine

Learn more about the ethical implications of euthanasia.

medicine.missouri.edu

So, if doctors are allowed to stand by while you die base ona decision you legally made while you were mentally sound it would appear you have the right to die.

Actually, I have a DNR. It's not "a right to die" but a right to refuse medical treatment I don't want. There's a difference between those two.

Anyway, I'm sure that those here who are preaching that their offer of a right to die is for the good of the recipients of that offer would flee anybody who walked up to them on the street and made them the same offer. So I see no reason why the offer of a right to die is any less a threat off the street then it is a threat on the street.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I'd be interested in learning the requirements in other countries if someone wants to give that info.

I posted details of the new Voluntary Assisted Dying law in Queensland earlier in the thread. It comes into effect on January 1.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

How can you trust anybody who claims out of compassion to honor the supposed right of a person to die who angrily bullies and abuses anybody who disagrees with him?

 

[atrib]

While I understand the hardship and futility of knowing that a friend or family member is in such a terrible situation, one question I've never received an answer to is this one: If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die?

Correct. It is my body, and therefore, the right to live or die is mine.

I don't know where you live, but here in the USA at least there is no such right.

And how is the government going to stop me from putting a 45ACP projectile in my own head, if I chose to do so?

Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

Anybody, if they so choose.

I'm not sure if I believe you here. I've yet to hear anybody seriously advocating the right to die for just anybody. Only the infirm are to be killed.

I believe that every human should be free to make decisions regarding whether they wish to continue to live, and the state has no business making this decision illegal. No matter what the circumstances. I am NOT advocating for healthy people to kill themselves en masse, as you seem to be implying.

So if, say, a young, handsome, and strong man is despondent over a divorce and cannot bear to live, we should do what we can to help him to live on. Suicide is out of the question; he's too good to let go of.

Why is it out of the question?

I just said that "he's too good to let go of."

There is no value judgement in my position. Every person should have the right to end their own life if they so desire, without the state passing laws to make it illegal, with no conditions attached. My body, my decision. It has nothing to do with people being "valuable" to society using some arbitrary metric.

So if you don't see my point, then let me spell it out for you: For many of us, physician assisted suicide is a means by which we can rid the world of people we do not value. That's why those of us we value have no "right" to die.

You are not making sense. Allowing people to voluntarily end their own lives that they no longer wish to live is not the same thing as getting rid of people we do not value.

Sometimes people are goaded into committing suicide. Their "voluntarily" deciding to take their own lives might actually result from being pressured to do so. If they no longer wish to live, then it is often a result of abuse.

And it's only fair to warn you that if you encourage a person to commit suicide, then you can do prison time for manslaughter.

I am not advocating for people to be encouraged to commit suicide. Your argument is a strawman.

 

[bilby]

I'd be interested in learning the requirements in other countries if someone wants to give that info.

I posted details of the new Voluntary Assisted Dying law in Queensland earlier in the thread. It comes into effect on January 1.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

How can you trust anybody who claims out of compassion to honor the supposed right of a person to die who angrily bullies and abuses anybody who disagrees with him?

Do you not own any mirrors?

 

[TomC]

That isn't suicide. It's just allowing nature to take its course.

That's the huge difference between DNR and assisted suicide. DNR is insisting on letting nature take it's course, while you're still competent enough to insist on anything. Assisted suicide is very different.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'd be interested in learning the requirements in other countries if someone wants to give that info.

I posted details of the new Voluntary Assisted Dying law in Queensland earlier in the thread. It comes into effect on January 1.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

How can you trust anybody who claims out of compassion to honor the supposed right of a person to die who angrily bullies and abuses anybody who disagrees with him?

bilby didn't put together the law... they just send him over with a large grand piano.

 

[Shadowy Man]

That isn't suicide. It's just allowing nature to take its course.

That's the huge difference between DNR and assisted suicide. DNR is insisting on letting nature take it's course, while you're still competent enough to insist on anything. Assisted suicide is very different.
Tom

Sure but the heart of the matter in this discussion is the “right”. Since DNRs are legal there is *some* right. It is just regulated (like all rights are to varying degree) such that assisted suicide is not necessarily legal.

 

[TomC]

That isn't suicide. It's just allowing nature to take its course.

That's the huge difference between DNR and assisted suicide. DNR is insisting on letting nature take it's course, while you're still competent enough to insist on anything. Assisted suicide is very different.
Tom

Sure but the heart of the matter in this discussion is the “right”. Since DNRs are legal there is *some* right. It is just regulated (like all rights are to varying degree) such that assisted suicide is not necessarily legal.

That doesn't seem to be the point to the OP.

But there are two words there that a far more complicated than a simple yes or no answer.
"All" and "right".

Does a teenager, who was just dumped by her boyfriend, have the same "right" to assisted suicide as a 75 year old stroke patient? If not, where do you(as an individual or a society) draw the line between her right and the elderly woman's rights?

I dunno.

Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That isn't suicide. It's just allowing nature to take its course.

That's the huge difference between DNR and assisted suicide. DNR is insisting on letting nature take it's course, while you're still competent enough to insist on anything. Assisted suicide is very different.
Tom

Sure but the heart of the matter in this discussion is the “right”. Since DNRs are legal there is *some* right. It is just regulated (like all rights are to varying degree) such that assisted suicide is not necessarily legal.

That doesn't seem to be the point to the OP.

But there are two words there that a far more complicated than a simple yes or no answer.
"All" and "right".

Does a teenager, who was just dumped by her boyfriend, have the same "right" to assisted suicide as a 75 year old stroke patient? If not, where do you(as an individual or a society) draw the line between her right and the elderly woman's rights?

At the permanence of the suffering. Is this that hard of a subject?