Europe submits voluntarily

[Loren Pechtel]

Secret footage has appeared of halal slaughter in a local Islamic abattoir here. Besides, how can an animal bleed to death, drained of all it's blood unless the heart pumps it out! For that to happen, the animal is conscious until it's last moment.

That requires it to be alive, not to be conscious. Most ways of sedation wouldn't be a good idea because the chemical would be left behind in the meat but there's one way that won't--hypoxia. A zero-oxygen environment would be lethal and thus unsuitable but if you use a low oxygen environment you can cause unconsciousness without death. (You're risking brain damage but that's irrelevant as the animal won't survive anyway.)

Nope. Brain death is not necessarily an obstacle to continued beating of a heart. A heart doesn't even need to be connected to a brain, or to be connected to a body, in order to keep beating for hours.

Only using the (biologically unsound, and logically circular) idea of death wherein cessation of heartbeat is death by definition, can you claim that it is necessary for an animal to be alive for its heart to beat.

Brain death need not stop the heart (it might; but it needn't). As any transplant surgeon can attest.

If you kill it with a lack of oxygen won't you also stop the heart?

 

[bilby]

Nope. Brain death is not necessarily an obstacle to continued beating of a heart. A heart doesn't even need to be connected to a brain, or to be connected to a body, in order to keep beating for hours.

Only using the (biologically unsound, and logically circular) idea of death wherein cessation of heartbeat is death by definition, can you claim that it is necessary for an animal to be alive for its heart to beat.

Brain death need not stop the heart (it might; but it needn't). As any transplant surgeon can attest.

If you kill it with a lack of oxygen won't you also stop the heart?

Probably; But that's completely consistent with what I wrote. I am not aware of any abattoir that uses anoxia to stun or kill, anyway, so it's not particularly important. It would be a difficult to manage such an environment without severe hazard to the slaughterhouse workers.

The usual method of stunning with a blow to the head causes unconsciousness, but neither kills nor causes the heart to stop, so at that point, pretty much any method for killing the animal that is completed before it regains consciousness is equally humane.

 

[DrZoidberg]

And you are seriously disputing that Sweden is getting fundamentally and thoroughly islamicized?

I hate to break it to you, but Donald Trump is not a reliable source of information. I also have no idea what you mean by Islamisation?

Yes, we have Muslims living in Sweden. They follow the same laws as everybody else. In Sweden being religious gives you no privileges. Sweden gives no exemptions for any religious practice of any kind. Nor needs to respect anybody on religious grounds. Sweden has freedom of religion. But being religious means nothing in Sweden. Swedish common law always trumps whatever religious exemption you want.

Here's an example why it's such a dumb concept.

We have religious schools. In the 90'ies it became legal to have private schools. Before this they were, by law, all run by the government. So various religious groups, Muslims included, started Muslim schools. There was just one problem. In Sweden parents aren't responsible for educating their children. The government is. Parents have no say in what their children are taught. Muslims were free to start religious schools, but were forced by law to teach the same things as other schools. Their religious freedom was illusory. State controllers would show up and when they noticed discrepancies they were shut down.

According to Swedish law children aren't allowed to be taught that women and men have different opportunities in life. The male and female students have to be treated exactly the same. They have to be taught that the ToE is true. And whenever religion is taught, they need to give equal attention to all religions. The curriculum is defined in detail, centrally. Each lesson is dictated and gives these schools zero freedom to teach what they want. Sweden is not a country to move to if you want to be free to raise your children as you see fit. If you try your children will be taken away from you and placed in foster care. Home schooling does not exist.

The idea that this country is becoming islamicized is just ludicrous. Last year I lived in Malmö. The city said to be the most islamicized. Well... apart form falafels being widely available I failed to see the merest trace of it. It's just a myth. It's based on fake news. There's no reality to it.

 

[Jokodo]

BS. The Muslims currently invading Europe and breeding like jackrabbits <snip>

Stop right there, will you?
The total fertility rate in Afghanistan, while high, is basically in free fall. Extrapolating from current trends is always dangerous, but even if we were to allow that, you're doing it wrong: Far from the country becoming majority Muslim anytime soon, the prediction we'd get from doing so is that Afghan TFR would equalise with Germany's in or near the year 2030 -- and that's for Afghans in Afghanistan. Longtitudinal studies of Afghan refugee camps in Eastern Iran shows that when Afghan women are exposed to modern ideas (in a broad sense, we're still talking about eastern Iran here), the rates drop even faster!

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?end=2015&locations=AF-DE&start=1960&view=chart

 

[DrZoidberg]

BS. The Muslims currently invading Europe and breeding like jackrabbits <snip>

Stop right there, will you?
The total fertility rate in Afghanistan, while high, is basically in free fall. Extrapolating from current trends is always dangerous, but even if we were to allow that, you're doing it wrong: Far from the country becoming majority Muslim anytime soon, the prediction we'd get from doing so is that Afghan TFR would equalise with Germany's in or near the year 2030 -- and that's for Afghans in Afghanistan. Longtitudinal studies of Afghan refugee camps in Eastern Iran shows that when Afghan women are exposed to modern ideas (in a broad sense, we're still talking about eastern Iran here), the rates drop even faster!

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?end=2015&locations=AF-DE&start=1960&view=chart

He's had this explained to him multiple times. By now I think he must know that he's wrong. He still repeats it for some reason. I'd save my energy.

 

[TSwizzle]

BS. The Muslims currently invading Europe and breeding like jackrabbits <snip>

He's had this explained to him multiple times. By now I think he must know that he's wrong. He still repeats it for some reason. I'd save my energy.

Except he's not wrong;

The Muslim population in some European countries could triple by 2050 while it will barely change in others, according to new projections released by the Washington-based Pew Research Centre.
Even if all current 28 EU members, plus Norway and Switzerland, closed their borders to migrants, the Muslim population share in the west would continue to grow owing to a younger age profile and higher fertility rates
In the medium migration scenario - perhaps the most likely - Sweden would have the biggest share of population at 20.5%.
Apart from migration, the number of Muslims in Europe is set to grow considerably through natural increases. Europe’s Muslims have more children than members of other religious groups, or people of no religion, the study shows. The European average fertility rate is 2.6 for Muslims compared to 1.6 for non-Muslims.

The Gruaniad

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Probably; But that's completely consistent with what I wrote. I am not aware of any abattoir that uses anoxia to stun or kill, anyway, so it's not particularly important. It would be a difficult to manage such an environment without severe hazard to the slaughterhouse workers.

I was trying to come up with a humane way of handling Halal. I don't think it would have to be that dangerous--the workers would have positive-pressure helmets.

The usual method of stunning with a blow to the head causes unconsciousness, but neither kills nor causes the heart to stop, so at that point, pretty much any method for killing the animal that is completed before it regains consciousness is equally humane.

Agreed. I am not objecting to the current approach.

 

[Jokodo]

Except he's not wrong;

The Muslim population in some European countries could triple by 2050 while it will barely change in others, according to new projections released by the Washington-based Pew Research Centre.
Even if all current 28 EU members, plus Norway and Switzerland, closed their borders to migrants, the Muslim population share in the west would continue to grow owing to a younger age profile and higher fertility rates
In the medium migration scenario - perhaps the most likely - Sweden would have the biggest share of population at 20.5%.
Apart from migration, the number of Muslims in Europe is set to grow considerably through natural increases. Europe’s Muslims have more children than members of other religious groups, or people of no religion, the study shows. The European average fertility rate is 2.6 for Muslims compared to 1.6 for non-Muslims.

The Gruaniad

Yes he is (wrong). Your quote does not negate this simple fact.

First, current fertility rates are rather meaningless when we know that:
a) those rates are an aggregate of the rates of recent migrants and the descendants of earlier migrations.
b) the tfr of locally born Muslim women whose parents were immigrants is halfway between that of foreign-born Muslim women and that of the general population.
c) the tfr of locally born Muslim women whose parents were also born in the country is indistinguishable from that of the general population.
d) the tfr in all or most of the countries where the bulk of new migrants are coming from is rapidly falling, so even if the population of first generation migrants with higher fertility rates is being replenished, this isn't going to push the aggregate figure up to where it is now.

Second, even with those assumptions that are bound to give to high an estimate, they get to a mere 20% - nowhere near the taking over!

Yes, the Muslim population will grow even with low immigration - but mostly due to its age structure: A younger population means fewer deaths to every 1000 births even if the number of children per woman of childbearing age is barely above the mean. Fantasies about exponential growth, however, are not warranted by reality.

 

[whichphilosophy]

BS. The Muslims currently invading Europe and breeding like jackrabbits <snip>

Stop right there, will you?
The total fertility rate in Afghanistan, while high, is basically in free fall. Extrapolating from current trends is always dangerous, but even if we were to allow that, you're doing it wrong: Far from the country becoming majority Muslim anytime soon, the prediction we'd get from doing so is that Afghan TFR would equalise with Germany's in or near the year 2030 -- and that's for Afghans in Afghanistan. Longtitudinal studies of Afghan refugee camps in Eastern Iran shows that when Afghan women are exposed to modern ideas (in a broad sense, we're still talking about eastern Iran here), the rates drop even faster!

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?end=2015&locations=AF-DE&start=1960&view=chart

In the UK the average number of children for Afghan and Somali families is 4.5 to 5.

Further:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1556901.stm
Britain's ethnic minorities are growing at 15 times the rate of the white population, newly-published research shows.
Data collected by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) between 1992-1994 and 1997-1999 showed that the number of people from minority ethnic groups grew by 15% compared to 1% for white people.

Race is not the issue but housing shortages are.
The UK is about 2 million houses short
Effective 06 April 2017, 3rd and subsequent children born on or after that date no longer qualify for child benefit.

 

[bilby]

Probably; But that's completely consistent with what I wrote. I am not aware of any abattoir that uses anoxia to stun or kill, anyway, so it's not particularly important. It would be a difficult to manage such an environment without severe hazard to the slaughterhouse workers.

I was trying to come up with a humane way of handling Halal.

And yet, as you go on to agree, the existing method achieves that objective, so you are looking for a solution to a non-existent problem.

I don't think it would have to be that dangerous--the workers would have positive-pressure helmets.

Well, unless you are going to supply and maintain those free of charge, that's a less good solution than the status quo, which already achieves the same objective without this added overhead (get it?) cost.

The usual method of stunning with a blow to the head causes unconsciousness, but neither kills nor causes the heart to stop, so at that point, pretty much any method for killing the animal that is completed before it regains consciousness is equally humane.

Agreed. I am not objecting to the current approach.

So why are you trying to find ways to make it needlessly more expensive (and uncomfortable - working in an abattoir is already fairly unpleasant, but at least you can breath the air without wearing protective headgear)?

 

[Jokodo]

BS. The Muslims currently invading Europe and breeding like jackrabbits <snip>

Stop right there, will you?
The total fertility rate in Afghanistan, while high, is basically in free fall. Extrapolating from current trends is always dangerous, but even if we were to allow that, you're doing it wrong: Far from the country becoming majority Muslim anytime soon, the prediction we'd get from doing so is that Afghan TFR would equalise with Germany's in or near the year 2030 -- and that's for Afghans in Afghanistan. Longtitudinal studies of Afghan refugee camps in Eastern Iran shows that when Afghan women are exposed to modern ideas (in a broad sense, we're still talking about eastern Iran here), the rates drop even faster!

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?end=2015&locations=AF-DE&start=1960&view=chart

In the UK the average number of children for Afghan and Somali families is 4.5 to 5.

Further:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1556901.stm
Britain's ethnic minorities are growing at 15 times the rate of the white population, newly-published research shows.
Data collected by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) between 1992-1994 and 1997-1999 showed that the number of people from minority ethnic groups grew by 15% compared to 1% for white people.

Race is not the issue but housing shortages are.
The UK is about 2 million houses short
Effective 06 April 2017, 3rd and subsequent children born on or after that date no longer qualify for child benefit.

Just to clarify, did you just quote a 16-year-old article at me? Do you consider its claims relevant for the present, and if so, why?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And yet, as you go on to agree, the existing method achieves that objective, so you are looking for a solution to a non-existent problem.

I don't think it would have to be that dangerous--the workers would have positive-pressure helmets.

Well, unless you are going to supply and maintain those free of charge, that's a less good solution than the status quo, which already achieves the same objective without this added overhead (get it?) cost.

The usual method of stunning with a blow to the head causes unconsciousness, but neither kills nor causes the heart to stop, so at that point, pretty much any method for killing the animal that is completed before it regains consciousness is equally humane.

Agreed. I am not objecting to the current approach.

So why are you trying to find ways to make it needlessly more expensive (and uncomfortable - working in an abattoir is already fairly unpleasant, but at least you can breath the air without wearing protective headgear)?

If standard techniques are humane and halal what's the issue about??

 

[bilby]

And yet, as you go on to agree, the existing method achieves that objective, so you are looking for a solution to a non-existent problem.Well, unless you are going to supply and maintain those free of charge, that's a less good solution than the status quo, which already achieves the same objective without this added overhead (get it?) cost.

The usual method of stunning with a blow to the head causes unconsciousness, but neither kills nor causes the heart to stop, so at that point, pretty much any method for killing the animal that is completed before it regains consciousness is equally humane.

Agreed. I am not objecting to the current approach.

So why are you trying to find ways to make it needlessly more expensive (and uncomfortable - working in an abattoir is already fairly unpleasant, but at least you can breath the air without wearing protective headgear)?

If standard techniques are humane and halal what's the issue about??

It's about people, who are disinterested in the truth, but who are looking for a stick to beat Muslims with.

it's about propaganda.

It's about the oft repeated lie that, by being certified as halal, meat sold to non-Muslims is rendered more expensive than it needs to be; and the other oft repeated lie that halal slaughter is cruel to animals.

The same lies were commonly spread about kosher food, before antisemitism became unfashionable.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Except he's not wrong;

The Muslim population in some European countries could triple by 2050 while it will barely change in others, according to new projections released by the Washington-based Pew Research Centre.
Even if all current 28 EU members, plus Norway and Switzerland, closed their borders to migrants, the Muslim population share in the west would continue to grow owing to a younger age profile and higher fertility rates
In the medium migration scenario - perhaps the most likely - Sweden would have the biggest share of population at 20.5%.
Apart from migration, the number of Muslims in Europe is set to grow considerably through natural increases. Europe’s Muslims have more children than members of other religious groups, or people of no religion, the study shows. The European average fertility rate is 2.6 for Muslims compared to 1.6 for non-Muslims.

The Gruaniad

You've also had it explained to you many times. This study assumes that it stays exactly the same as it is now. Which violates the pattern for how the demographic shifts always have occurred. There's no explanation as to why that would be the case, so therefore likely nonsense. How about worrying about a real problem?

 

[angelo]

And you are seriously disputing that Sweden is getting fundamentally and thoroughly islamicized?

I hate to break it to you, but Donald Trump is not a reliable source of information. I also have no idea what you mean by Islamisation?

Yes, we have Muslims living in Sweden. They follow the same laws as everybody else. In Sweden being religious gives you no privileges. Sweden gives no exemptions for any religious practice of any kind. Nor needs to respect anybody on religious grounds. Sweden has freedom of religion. But being religious means nothing in Sweden. Swedish common law always trumps whatever religious exemption you want.

Here's an example why it's such a dumb concept.

We have religious schools. In the 90'ies it became legal to have private schools. Before this they were, by law, all run by the government. So various religious groups, Muslims included, started Muslim schools. There was just one problem. In Sweden parents aren't responsible for educating their children. The government is. Parents have no say in what their children are taught. Muslims were free to start religious schools, but were forced by law to teach the same things as other schools. Their religious freedom was illusory. State controllers would show up and when they noticed discrepancies they were shut down.

According to Swedish law children aren't allowed to be taught that women and men have different opportunities in life. The male and female students have to be treated exactly the same. They have to be taught that the ToE is true. And whenever religion is taught, they need to give equal attention to all religions. The curriculum is defined in detail, centrally. Each lesson is dictated and gives these schools zero freedom to teach what they want. Sweden is not a country to move to if you want to be free to raise your children as you see fit. If you try your children will be taken away from you and placed in foster care. Home schooling does not exist.

The idea that this country is becoming islamicized is just ludicrous. Last year I lived in Malmö. The city said to be the most islamicized. Well... apart form falafels being widely available I failed to see the merest trace of it. It's just a myth. It's based on fake news. There's no reality to it.

Denial doesn't change the facts.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/29/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/

 

[angelo]

And yet, as you go on to agree, the existing method achieves that objective, so you are looking for a solution to a non-existent problem.Well, unless you are going to supply and maintain those free of charge, that's a less good solution than the status quo, which already achieves the same objective without this added overhead (get it?) cost.

Agreed. I am not objecting to the current approach.

So why are you trying to find ways to make it needlessly more expensive (and uncomfortable - working in an abattoir is already fairly unpleasant, but at least you can breath the air without wearing protective headgear)?

If standard techniques are humane and halal what's the issue about??

It's about people, who are disinterested in the truth, but who are looking for a stick to beat Muslims with.

it's about propaganda.

It's about the oft repeated lie that, by being certified as halal, meat sold to non-Muslims is rendered more expensive than it needs to be; and the other oft repeated lie that halal slaughter is cruel to animals.

The same lies were commonly spread about kosher food, before antisemitism became unfashionable.

Who pray tell do you think pays for the halal certification if not the ultimate consumers? I object to having some bozo praying over my food, let alone pay one cent extra for it!

 

[angelo]

Except he's not wrong;

The Muslim population in some European countries could triple by 2050 while it will barely change in others, according to new projections released by the Washington-based Pew Research Centre.
Even if all current 28 EU members, plus Norway and Switzerland, closed their borders to migrants, the Muslim population share in the west would continue to grow owing to a younger age profile and higher fertility rates
In the medium migration scenario - perhaps the most likely - Sweden would have the biggest share of population at 20.5%.
Apart from migration, the number of Muslims in Europe is set to grow considerably through natural increases. Europe’s Muslims have more children than members of other religious groups, or people of no religion, the study shows. The European average fertility rate is 2.6 for Muslims compared to 1.6 for non-Muslims.

The Gruaniad

You've also had it explained to you many times. This study assumes that it stays exactly the same as it is now. Which violates the pattern for how the demographic shifts always have occurred. There's no explanation as to why that would be the case, so therefore likely nonsense. How about worrying about a real problem?

Here is the real problem!
http://www.dailywire.com/news/12466/how-muslim-migration-made-malmo-sweden-crime-michael-qazvini#

 

[DrZoidberg]

You've also had it explained to you many times. This study assumes that it stays exactly the same as it is now. Which violates the pattern for how the demographic shifts always have occurred. There's no explanation as to why that would be the case, so therefore likely nonsense. How about worrying about a real problem?

Here is the real problem!
http://www.dailywire.com/news/12466/how-muslim-migration-made-malmo-sweden-crime-michael-qazvini#

I'm sorry, but that article had zero substance. It doesn't make any tangible claims. So I'm not sure why you posted that article. Daily Wire is a regular offender at Snopes. It's just a fake news/click bait site.

https://www.snopes.com/tag/daily-wire/

Malmö does have that highest crime rate in Sweden. The reason is no mystery, is easy to look up, and suspiciously absent from that article. So here's what I think, I think they didn't look up anything. They just made shit up.

 

[ruby sparks]

I've been to Copenhagen AND Malmö!

Just sayin'

I also had a pen pal from Malmö when I was 14. Her name was Helen Titoff. When I was 14, a name like that conjured inappropriate mental images.

 

[Jokodo]

You've also had it explained to you many times. This study assumes that it stays exactly the same as it is now. Which violates the pattern for how the demographic shifts always have occurred. There's no explanation as to why that would be the case, so therefore likely nonsense. How about worrying about a real problem?

Here is the real problem!
http://www.dailywire.com/news/12466/how-muslim-migration-made-malmo-sweden-crime-michael-qazvini#

The real problem is a very loose treatment of reality by right-wing sources: https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/...tion-in-sweden-compared-to-the-us-in-4-charts