Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[Trausti]

It's been posted. Look at the video of him being dragged like he can't walk--but you see he actually can.

So what caused his death? Who was responsible for his death?

The prosecution case presented in Porter's trial leaves open the probability that Gray's injuries were self-inflicted. That is, there was no hint the prosecution is pursuing a theory that the police caused the injury. Instead, the serious charges against Porter, White, and Goodson surround an alleged failure to timely render aid when requested. If Gray was the habitual drama queen as his frequent police encounters suggest, then the likelihood he would be disbelieved when he actually had an injury should not be surprising. for shizzle

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's been posted. Look at the video of him being dragged like he can't walk--but you see he actually can.

So what caused his death? Who was responsible for his death?

I don't believe we have any way of answering this. And since we can't answer this we certainly can't say the cops did it beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So what caused his death? Who was responsible for his death?

The prosecution case presented in Porter's trial leaves open the probability that Gray's injuries were self-inflicted. That is, there was no hint the prosecution is pursuing a theory that the police caused the injury. Instead, the serious charges against Porter, White, and Goodson surround an alleged failure to timely render aid when requested. If Gray was the habitual drama queen as his frequent police encounters suggest, then the likelihood he would be disbelieved when he actually had an injury should not be surprising. for shizzle

Frequent police encounters don't prove he's a drama queen. There are two other things, though:

1) The faked inability to walk.

2) The autopsy says the injury was all at once. Thus his complaints in the van were bogus. Thus we have evidence of him making bogus complaints.

 

[Arctish]

So what caused his death? Who was responsible for his death?

I don't believe we have any way of answering this.

We know what caused his death. We know that at least one other person suffered the same type of fatal injury in the back of a Baltimore police van when he was taken on an unnecessarily long ride while unsecured in the back. We know that the cops are required to secure people in their custody with seat belts because the failure to do so in that previous case resulted in an expensive lawsuit.

We also know the police are required to summon medical assistance when someone in their custody requests it, even if the cops are absolutely, 100% certain the person making the request is faking an injury. And we know people who supposedly are throwing themselves around in the back of a van can't engage in that behavior when they are in handcuffs, leg shackles, and secured with a seat belt.

There's something else we know: that some people here will say anything, come up with any excuse, and ignore their own previous stances on issues, to avoid upholding the rights of someone who doesn't meet with their approval, especially if that person is black and suspected of criminal activity.

 

[maxparrish]

It's been posted. Look at the video of him being dragged like he can't walk--but you see he actually can.

So what caused his death? Who was responsible for his death?

Why does someone have to be morally responsible? If on a City or school bus a person or student does not stay seated when the bus is moving, and falls causing a fatal injury, are we to suppose that the driver "killed him" and should be charged with a criminal homocide? (Be reminded, buses don't usually have seat belts either).

No one knows exactly how he killed himself - for all we know he may have stood on his seat and accidentally dove headfirst onto the floor. However, had he remained prone on the floor, its difficult to see how any he could have caused such traumatic injury.

Most likely, for whatever reason, he was standing when it happened.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

No one knows exactly how he killed himself

you have proof this was suicide now?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No one knows exactly how he killed himself - for all we know he may have stood on his seat and accidentally dove headfirst onto the floor. However, had he remained prone on the floor, its difficult to see how any he could have caused such traumatic injury.

Most likely, for whatever reason, he was standing when it happened.

Objection: We don't know he killed himself, either. We simply don't have the information to determine what happened.

What I do think we have here is a case for cameras observing the prisoners.

 

[maxparrish]

No one knows exactly how he killed himself

you have proof this was suicide now?

I would have thought inadvertent death is an accident, not suicide.

 

[maxparrish]

No one knows exactly how he killed himself - for all we know he may have stood on his seat and accidentally dove headfirst onto the floor. However, had he remained prone on the floor, its difficult to see how any he could have caused such traumatic injury.

Most likely, for whatever reason, he was standing when it happened.

Objection: We don't know he killed himself, either. We simply don't have the information to determine what happened.

What I do think we have here is a case for cameras observing the prisoners.

Well, we do know:

a) The prosecution made no claim there was rough driving.
b) Gray was physical and made lots of banging in the back of the van, so much so his legs were shackled during a stop.
c) He was alone when he was injured.

All of which suggests that it was an accident, precipitated by his actions.

 

[atrib]

Actually it is a very strong case against the cops. Freddie was alive and fine when he went into the van. He had a crushed spine when he came out.

Except we have evidence that he was faking injuries. Maybe he tried to make something that looked real and succeeded too well.

Its kind of hard to fake your own death. Wasn't Grey's body examined by competent medical personnel who determined that he was dead and not faking it? Why do you keep dancing around this point?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Except we have evidence that he was faking injuries. Maybe he tried to make something that looked real and succeeded too well.

Its kind of hard to fake your own death. Wasn't Grey's body examined by competent medical personnel who determined that he was dead and not faking it? Why do you keep dancing around this point?

Are you being willfully ignorant here??

 

[RavenSky]

FOR THE 254th TIME: PLEASE POST THIS EVIDENCE

and then give it to the defense so they might use it in the trials. Don't you think that might have been a wee bit important?

It's been posted. Look at the video of him being dragged like he can't walk--but you see he actually can.

So, in other words, we have your opinion but no actual evidence.

As I thought.

 

[Arctish]

So what caused his death? Who was responsible for his death?

Why does someone have to be morally responsible? If on a City or school bus a person or student does not stay seated when the bus is moving, and falls causing a fatal injury, are we to suppose that the driver "killed him" and should be charged with a criminal homocide? (Be reminded, buses don't usually have seat belts either).

A bus driver is not required to make sure the passengers are secured with seat belts, in no small part because there are no seat belts on buses. But if we're talking about the driver of a vehicle that has them, like a limousine, and a passenger who suffers a broken neck while unsecured with a seat belt, there very well could be criminal charges brought against the driver because limos have seat belts, the use of seat belts while the vehicle is moving is required, and he was responsible for the safety of his passengers.

Police vans in Baltimore have seat belts in the back, and their use is required. The cops who placed Gray in the van, drove him around, and had interactions with him during the trip were responsible for him the moment they took him into custody. That means they were responsible for making sure he was properly secured, and their failure to do is a major factor in his death.

No one knows exactly how he killed himself - for all we know he may have stood on his seat and accidentally dove headfirst onto the floor. However, had he remained prone on the floor, its difficult to see how any he could have caused such traumatic injury.

Most likely, for whatever reason, he was standing when it happened.

It is extremely unlikely Gray could have stood up in the back of a moving van while wearing handcuffs and leg shackles. And we know standing was not necessary for him to have suffered a broken neck. It's far more likely he was not in control of his motions during the van ride (that's purpose of putting someone in handcuffs and shackles BTW). And we know that Gray couldn't have stood up if he'd been secured with a seat belt, so even this unlikely scenario doesn't actually excuse the cops failure to secure him with a seat belt.

 

[maxparrish]

Its kind of hard to fake your own death. Wasn't Grey's body examined by competent medical personnel who determined that he was dead and not faking it? Why do you keep dancing around this point?

Are you being willfully ignorant here??

I think what you are seeing is the bitter clinger suspension of the higher brain functions. You can refer to all the evidence or give all reasoning you like, rote denial is nearly incurable.

Recall the old quote that you cannot reason someone out of something that they did not, originally, reason themselves into.

 

[Toni]

So what caused his death? Who was responsible for his death?

The prosecution case presented in Porter's trial leaves open the probability that Gray's injuries were self-inflicted. That is, there was no hint the prosecution is pursuing a theory that the police caused the injury. Instead, the serious charges against Porter, White, and Goodson surround an alleged failure to timely render aid when requested. If Gray was the habitual drama queen as his frequent police encounters suggest, then the likelihood he would be disbelieved when he actually had an injury should not be surprising. for shizzle

I think you are confusing probability with possibility--and an extremely remote one at that. Gray was handcuffed and shackled. He was also in custody and under the supervision of multiple police officers. Which means that they are in fact, culpable for any harm that befell him. If he attempted suicide, they would be duty bound to prevent it.

There is zero evidence to suggest that Grey had the ability or the will to injure himself. There is a great deal of evidence that the fatal injury occurred as a direct result of negligence if not absolute malice on the part of the officers.

 

[Toni]

So what caused his death? Who was responsible for his death?

I don't believe we have any way of answering this. And since we can't answer this we certainly can't say the cops did it beyond a reasonable doubt.

I agree that WE cannot because WE were not there and WE do not have access to all evidence.

However, the officers were responsible for the injury that led to his death, either through negligence or through malice. Or perhaps both. We know they were negligent: they did not follow protocol for transporting prisoners. We can surmise they were malicious: they deliberately handcuffed and shackled him, leaving him with no ability to stabilize his body as the van took bumps and turns and sudden stops, etc., but failed to secure him in a seat which would have ensured that he was not injured during these 'maneuvers, and then deliberately gave him a long rough ride. There was no reason to do this except malice.

When police officers take someone into custody, they have a legal responsibility to ensure that person's well being and safety.

 

[maxparrish]

Why does someone have to be morally responsible? If on a City or school bus a person or student does not stay seated when the bus is moving, and falls causing a fatal injury, are we to suppose that the driver "killed him" and should be charged with a criminal homocide? (Be reminded, buses don't usually have seat belts either).

A bus driver is not required to make sure the passengers are secured with seat belts, in no small part because there are no seat belts on buses. But if we're talking about the driver of a vehicle that has them, like a limousine, and a passenger who suffers a broken neck while unsecured with a seat belt, there very well could be criminal charges brought against the driver because limos have seat belts, the use of seat belts while the vehicle is moving is required, and he was responsible for the safety of his passengers.

City bus passengers are told to stay in their seats while the vehicle is moving, as are students, and the arrested. If they choose to ignore those rules, and die because they stood and fell, the bus or van driver did not commit a homicide. And even if the bus or van driver forgets a duty to caution the person to stay seated, they are STILL not guilty of a homicide (they or their employer might be civilly sued for not giving a warning, but that is not criminal homicide).

People who refuse to follow rules, for their own safety, are the ones morally responsible for the consequences.

Police vans in Baltimore have seat belts in the back, and their use is required. The cops who placed Gray in the van, drove him around, and had interactions with him during the trip were responsible for him the moment they took him into custody. That means they were responsible for making sure he was properly secured, and their failure to do is a major factor in his death.

The seat belt requirement was a new safety rule, not a law for prisoners that chose to be seated. There is no evidence that the prisoner died in the seat. He most likely (and unwisely) stood and fell.

If a jailer or driver is criminally responsible for unwise actions by prisoners, they should keep them strapped down to the floor in four point restraints no matter where they are. After all, they fall in vans, cells, exercise yards; they hang themselves, or even kill themselves accidentally while trying to escape. Jailers are not criminally liable for the prisoners willful actions - even if the jailer chooses not to subject the prisoner to additional "safety" restraints.

It is extremely unlikely Gray could have stood up in the back of a moving van while wearing handcuffs and leg shackles. And we know standing was not necessary for him to have suffered a broken neck. It's far more likely he was not in control of his motions during the van ride (that's purpose of putting someone in handcuffs and shackles BTW). And we know that Gray couldn't have stood up if he'd been secured with a seat belt, so even this unlikely scenario doesn't actually excuse the cops failure to secure him with a seat belt.

Incorrect. The ME specifically offered a couple of possible scenarios, but stated that the cause, most consistent with the evidence, was a fall from a standing position.

“While it cannot be excluded that this injury could occur while lying on the floor and sliding back and forth with the movement of the van, the likelihood of sufficient acceleration/deceleration to generate the energy needed is less likely in this position.”

“Further, the most significant impact to the head and the impact consistent with the neck injury is on the left lower back area of the head, is not consistent with injury in this prone position.”

“Although Mr. Gray was placed belly down on the floor of the van at the 2nd stop, he would have been able to get to his feet using the bench side and the opposite wall. As the clearance between the interior floor and roof was approximately 4 feet (Mr. Gray measured 5’9″ in length), he would have been hunched over with his neck in a flexed position if he had risen off the floor.” ...

“An unexpected turning motion, acceleration or deceleration of the van would have precipitated him into the side walls, the door or the front of the van depending on his position, resulting in the left posterior impact to his head with injury to the spinal cord in his flexed neck.”

“If the motion/acceleration/deceleration of the van was abrupt enough, given the confined space in the vehicle, it is possible that his neck injury occurred with him in a partially reclining position or as he was changing his position on the floor of the van."

http://theconservativetreehouse.com...and-narrative-text-from-the-autopsy-analysis/

Whether or not the City of Baltimore, or a policeman, is civilly negligent is a different matter. But Porter is not guilty of any crime. Period.

 

[atrib]

Are you being willfully ignorant here??

I think what you are seeing is the bitter clinger suspension of the higher brain functions. You can refer to all the evidence or give all reasoning you like, rote denial is nearly incurable.

Recall the old quote that you cannot reason someone out of something that they did not, originally, reason themselves into.

Freddie Gray was killed while in police custody, very likely because he was not appropriately secured to his seat, the driver chose to give him a "rough ride", and because the police who were responsible for his safety chose to ignore his pleas for medical assistance. The PD in this city has a documented history of similar behavior resulting in severe injury to other people in their custody. These are the facts of the case as we know them. Rote denial indeed.

 

[Sea of red]

Lets be real: these cops are responsible for this.

Virtually all the specialists agree this could not have been caused without either a malicious effort by the driver, or possibly being harmed by the police in other ways - it's certainly not difficult to wonder the way these officers treated him out of public view. Spinal injuries of this degree are not easy to come by without traumatic force of some kind, and it's speculative to think that even a rough ride would be enough to cause this.

Regardless, these cops either deliberately used the police van as a way of 'punishing' him for his antics, or they physically did this to him at a stop. It doesn't matter either way. This kind of malice towards a human being would never be tolerated in any other profession. They should spend their rest of their lives in prison but as we all know, cops almost always walk (and have their apologists) no matter how incriminating the evidence is.

 

[Arctish]

A bus driver is not required to make sure the passengers are secured with seat belts, in no small part because there are no seat belts on buses. But if we're talking about the driver of a vehicle that has them, like a limousine, and a passenger who suffers a broken neck while unsecured with a seat belt, there very well could be criminal charges brought against the driver because limos have seat belts, the use of seat belts while the vehicle is moving is required, and he was responsible for the safety of his passengers.

City bus passengers are told to stay in their seats while the vehicle is moving, as are students, and the arrested. If they choose to ignore those rules, and die because they stood and fell, the bus or van driver did not commit a homicide. And even if the bus or van driver forgets a duty to caution the person to stay seated, they are STILL not guilty of a homicide (they or their employer might be civilly sued for not giving a warning, but that is not criminal homicide).

Whether they were guilty of homicide would depend on the degree of recklessness they displayed.

If the bus had seat belts, and there was a law or other requirement that they be used, and the bus driver could see or knew that a passenger was unsecured, then there's a very good chance that charges would be brought if that passenger died as a result.

People who refuse to follow rules, for their own safety, are the ones morally responsible for the consequences.

What about cops who refuse to follow the rules regarding the safety of others? Are they morally responsible for the consequences?

Police vans in Baltimore have seat belts in the back, and their use is required. The cops who placed Gray in the van, drove him around, and had interactions with him during the trip were responsible for him the moment they took him into custody. That means they were responsible for making sure he was properly secured, and their failure to do is a major factor in his death.

The seat belt requirement was a new safety rule, not a law for prisoners that chose to be seated. There is no evidence that the prisoner died in the seat. He most likely (and unwisely) stood and fell.

If a jailer or driver is criminally responsible for unwise actions by prisoners, they should keep them strapped down to the floor in four point restraints no matter where they are. After all, they fall in vans, cells, exercise yards; they hang themselves, or even kill themselves accidentally while trying to escape. Jailers are not criminally liable for the prisoners willful actions - even if the jailer chooses not to subject the prisoner to additional "safety" restraints.

It is extremely unlikely Gray could have stood up in the back of a moving van while wearing handcuffs and leg shackles. And we know standing was not necessary for him to have suffered a broken neck. It's far more likely he was not in control of his motions during the van ride (that's purpose of putting someone in handcuffs and shackles BTW). And we know that Gray couldn't have stood up if he'd been secured with a seat belt, so even this unlikely scenario doesn't actually excuse the cops failure to secure him with a seat belt.

Incorrect. The ME specifically offered a couple of possible scenarios, but stated that the cause, most consistent with the evidence, was a fall from a standing position.

“While it cannot be excluded that this injury could occur while lying on the floor and sliding back and forth with the movement of the van, the likelihood of sufficient acceleration/deceleration to generate the energy needed is less likely in this position.”

“Further, the most significant impact to the head and the impact consistent with the neck injury is on the left lower back area of the head, is not consistent with injury in this prone position.”

“Although Mr. Gray was placed belly down on the floor of the van at the 2nd stop, he would have been able to get to his feet using the bench side and the opposite wall. As the clearance between the interior floor and roof was approximately 4 feet (Mr. Gray measured 5’9″ in length), he would have been hunched over with his neck in a flexed position if he had risen off the floor.” ...

“An unexpected turning motion, acceleration or deceleration of the van would have precipitated him into the side walls, the door or the front of the van depending on his position, resulting in the left posterior impact to his head with injury to the spinal cord in his flexed neck.”

“If the motion/acceleration/deceleration of the van was abrupt enough, given the confined space in the vehicle, it is possible that his neck injury occurred with him in a partially reclining position or as he was changing his position on the floor of the van."

http://theconservativetreehouse.com...and-narrative-text-from-the-autopsy-analysis/

Whether or not the City of Baltimore, or a policeman, is civilly negligent is a different matter. But Porter is not guilty of any crime. Period.

“If the motion/acceleration/deceleration of the van was abrupt enough, given the confined space in the vehicle, it is possible that his neck injury occurred with him in a partially reclining position or as he was changing his position on the floor of the van."

Doesn't mean he was standing. Just trying to sit up and/or brace yourself means changing your position and could result in you being in a partially reclining position at some point. Heck, just being tossed around in the back of a van means your position is changing. It doesn't excuse the cops for not fastening your seat belt, especially when you can't do it yourself, what with being handcuffed and all.