Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[Jimmy Higgins]

And what evidence do you have that his spine was broken before?

Evidence of any sort is lacking in this case, one way or the other.

Jebus, it is like Frank Dreben in front of the fireworks store on fire saying "There is nothing to see here."

 

[Nice Squirrel]

NM

 

[ApostateAbe]

I stand corrected! I sensed bullshit when the evidence presented by the blog was not relevant to the type of injury but instead relied on anonymous sources. As usual, it is probably better to wait until a fuller body of facts are released before making judgments. Maybe the cops really did bust a fully intact spine, or maybe not.

Yeah maybe not. Maybe he walked into the van fine and came out on his death bed. This shit just happens sometimes. Occam's razor comes to one and only one conclusion. I have never seen such disregard to simple logic before... that didn't involve the Tea Party and politics.

Plausibility stands for a lot, which I have often argued for in other debates, so I must concede that I think there is a strong argument given plausibility alone that the police delivered excessive force. I am not trying to be partisan about this, but humble. Partisans generally do not admit their errors. Direct evidence of course also counts for a lot, and all of us are still in the dark about the direct evidence. If it is true that Freddie Gray had a fragile spine, then it would be a game changer, because it would mean that the spine can break without the delivery of excessive force. The evidence that the Fourth Estate pretended to have was apparently made up, as the Baltimore Sun revealed. But, it does NOT prove that Freddie Gray did not have a fragile spine. As it stands now, we really have no idea about the health condition of Freddie Gray. We will know after the forensic reports. I have learned in past incidents (Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, etc.) that the early evidence reported by the media tends to bias the judgments of the public away from the truth, and evidence released after the public has already made up its mind tends to give the only useful picture. That is NOT to say that we can rely on future evidence vindicating the cops. At least sometimes, the cops really are fully guilty.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah maybe not. Maybe he walked into the van fine and came out on his death bed. This shit just happens sometimes. Occam's razor comes to one and only one conclusion. I have never seen such disregard to simple logic before... that didn't involve the Tea Party and politics.

Plausibility stands for a lot, which I have often argued for in other debates, so I must concede that I think there is a strong argument given plausibility alone that the police delivered excessive force. I am not trying to be partisan about this, but humble.

Partisan?! The guy allegedly walked into a van, was in the van for 30 minutes (were they going on a vacation?) and then comes out, ready to die. You don't have to be partisan to see that it looks extremely bad for the Police. The Police's following inability to say what happened then damns them a bit more.

This isn't partisan. It is quite simply, an obvious conclusion, that while maybe not 100% certain, there is no alternative that comes close to explaining it otherwise. It kind of looks like the Democrat for President polling numbers.

Partisans generally do not admit their errors. Direct evidence of course also counts for a lot, and all of us are still in the dark about the direct evidence.

Severed spine is a substantial piece of evidence.

If it is true that Freddie Gray had a fragile spine, then it would be a game changer, because it would mean that the spine can break without the delivery of excessive force.

Even if it was weak... severed spine!!! You don't hear that term much. And when a severed spine is involved in a death, it has to take some sort of notable force to happen, even if it was as weak as Glass Joe's jaw.

The evidence that the Fourth Estate pretended to have was apparently made up, as the Baltimore Sun revealed. But, it does NOT prove that Freddie Gray did not have a fragile spine.

The term fragile is being grossly misused in your context.

As it stands now, we really have no idea about the health condition of Freddie Gray.

Dollars to donuts, it is likely his neck wasn't nearly severed off before the cops were involved.

We will know after the forensic reports. I have learned in past incidents (Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, etc.) that the early evidence reported by the media tends to bias the judgments of the public away from the truth, and evidence released after the public has already made up its mind tends to give the only useful picture. That is NOT to say that we can rely on future evidence vindicating the cops. At least sometimes, the cops really are fully guilty.

I'm pretty certain that Martin died of a gunshot wound and the cause was quite obvious. Same with Michael Brown.

 

[laughing dog]

The police have a lot of explaining to do. They have to be able to show how they treated Gray at all times. Frankly, I find it difficult to believe that someone with 3 broken veterbrae did not quickly indicate pain and distress, and I wonder what took so long for the police to get him to medical professionals.

 

[ksen]

1st cop rule: Leave no witnesses

 

[Rhea]

The police have a lot of explaining to do. They have to be able to show how they treated Gray at all times. Frankly, I find it difficult to believe that someone with 3 broken veterbrae did not quickly indicate pain and distress, and I wonder what took so long for the police to get him to medical professionals.

But they have some time to get their stories straight, first:
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/27/blue-shield

The problem, said Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, is that city officials were unable to "fully engage" with the officers "because of our Law Enforcement Officers' Bill of Rights."That such a bill of rights exists was news to many in Maryland. But the mayor was correct to note the significant role that the LEOBoR, as it is called, has played in the investigation into Freddie Gray's death. A set of due-process rights for police officers under internal investigation for alleged misconduct, Maryland’s LEOBoR includes a provision that the officers cannot be forced to make any statements for 10 days after the incident, during which time they are presumed to be searching for a lawyer. It is partly because of this "cooling-off period" — to critics, a convenient delay for the cops to tidy up their stories — that so little has been said by the only people who know what took place within that vehicle.

This article really points to a terrible problem leading to abuse or the cover up of abuse.

 

[Horatio Parker]

But they have some time to get their stories straight, first:
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/27/blue-shield

The problem, said Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, is that city officials were unable to "fully engage" with the officers "because of our Law Enforcement Officers' Bill of Rights."That such a bill of rights exists was news to many in Maryland. But the mayor was correct to note the significant role that the LEOBoR, as it is called, has played in the investigation into Freddie Gray's death. A set of due-process rights for police officers under internal investigation for alleged misconduct, Maryland’s LEOBoR includes a provision that the officers cannot be forced to make any statements for 10 days after the incident, during which time they are presumed to be searching for a lawyer. It is partly because of this "cooling-off period" — to critics, a convenient delay for the cops to tidy up their stories — that so little has been said by the only people who know what took place within that vehicle.

This article really points to a terrible problem leading to abuse or the cover up of abuse.

Yes. In NY, it's 48 hours and is referred to as the "48 hours law".

The police understand very well how critical to interrogation is the lack of orientation, the desire to get away, to sleep etc in short the emotional state of the accused. Consequently, they shield their own.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That would explain a lot, if true.

Yup, that provides a reasonable explanation for a severed cord without a bunch of other injuries.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is ridiculous. If he had surgery, they wouldn't have let him out of the hospital if he were in danger of shattering like delicate crystal. This is just the latest version of big, scary, obese, frail Garner. He was big and strong that justified using force against him, but he was also fat and weak, which was the REAL cause of his death, not being strangled.

I disagree. If all you need is bed rest you're better off at home than in the hospital around a bunch of sick people. If home isn't viable for some reason (say, no adequate caretaker) they'll send you to a rehabilitation "hospital"--rather like a nursing home but it's aimed at those who are healing rather than those at the end of life.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Turns out there may be evidence to support that theory, in the case of Freddie Gray. A conservative blog claims to have dug up evidence that he had surgery on his spine a week prior to his arrest.

http://thefourthestate.co/2015/04/b...ad-spine-surgery-just-one-week-before-arrest/

As suspected the story is false.

Those reports — which raise questions about the injury that led to his death in April 19 — point to Howard County court records as proof.

But court records examined Wednesday by The Baltimore Sun show the case had nothing to do with a car accident or a spine injury. Instead, they are connected to a lawsuit alleging that Gray and his sister were injured by exposure lead paint.

And the genetics of big scary black men with spines hardened by slavery marches on.

The link you failed to include: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-gray-settlement-20150429-story.html


It's talking about the structured settlement, this is in no way a rebuttal of the issue of spinal surgery.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

As suspected the story is false.

Those reports — which raise questions about the injury that led to his death in April 19 — point to Howard County court records as proof.

But court records examined Wednesday by The Baltimore Sun show the case had nothing to do with a car accident or a spine injury. Instead, they are connected to a lawsuit alleging that Gray and his sister were injured by exposure lead paint.

And the genetics of big scary black men with spines hardened by slavery marches on.

The link you failed to include: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-gray-settlement-20150429-story.html


It's talking about the structured settlement, this is in no way a rebuttal of the issue of spinal surgery.

And where was the spinal surgery done then?

 

[laughing dog]

It is fascinating to see the abject worshippers of the police latch onto any fairy tale in the search of an explanation that absolves their objects of adoration.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

That would explain a lot, if true.

Yup, that provides a reasonable explanation for a severed cord without a bunch of other injuries.

Really? Please give a full medical explanation and relate it to his alleged surgery.

 

[RavenSky]

And what evidence do you have that his spine was broken before?

Evidence of any sort is lacking in this case, one way or the other.

How do you figure that when we have video of him entering the van alive, and able to turn his head and stand on his own two feet - then come out of the same van dead or dying.

 

[ApostateAbe]

Evidence of any sort is lacking in this case, one way or the other.

How do you figure that when we have video of him entering the van alive, and able to turn his head and stand on his own two feet - then come out of the same van dead or dying.

Are you proposing that the injury was inflicting while in the van? The video seems to indicate that the injury was inflicted before entering the van. He had to be carried. He wasn't standing on his own two feet.

 

[Trausti]

As suspected the story is false.

Those reports — which raise questions about the injury that led to his death in April 19 — point to Howard County court records as proof.

But court records examined Wednesday by The Baltimore Sun show the case had nothing to do with a car accident or a spine injury. Instead, they are connected to a lawsuit alleging that Gray and his sister were injured by exposure lead paint.

And the genetics of big scary black men with spines hardened by slavery marches on.

The link you failed to include: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-gray-settlement-20150429-story.html


It's talking about the structured settlement, this is in no way a rebuttal of the issue of spinal surgery.

To be fair, the spinal surgery story came out of nowhere and is not sourced. There's nothing really to rebut about it.

 

[RavenSky]

How do you figure that when we have video of him entering the van alive, and able to turn his head and stand on his own two feet - then come out of the same van dead or dying.

Are you proposing that the injury was inflicting while in the van? The video seems to indicate that the injury was inflicted before entering the van. He had to be carried. He wasn't standing on his own two feet.

Yes, dear, he was. I and others have already produced the video which shows that Freddie Gray was standing on his own two feet on the bumper of the van, turning his head and yelling something to someone in the crowd.

Yes, the cops had to drag him from the curb to the van. As I have said before, it is possible that they partially injured his spine by kneeling on his neck while bending his legs back so far that his feet where nearly touching his back (also caught on the video). It is also possible that their actions during the arrest simply put his legs to sleep and it took a few minutes for him to be able to walk on his own again. Either way, by the time he reach the back of the van, he was supporting himself on his own legs and turning his head.

Moreover, he wasn't dead or dying when they pulled him out of the van at the "second stop" to put leg shackles on him, then tossed him head first back into the van.

I suspect (& I fully acknowledge that this is speculation) that the act of tossing him back into the van with the leg shackles is what caused the spine injury that killed him, or them driving around tossing him about in the back of the van unable to maintain his own balance due to both hand cuffs and leg shackles plus no seat belt (which is required but they did not use).

 

[Trausti]

How do you figure that when we have video of him entering the van alive, and able to turn his head and stand on his own two feet - then come out of the same van dead or dying.

Are you proposing that the injury was inflicting while in the van? The video seems to indicate that the injury was inflicted before entering the van. He had to be carried. He wasn't standing on his own two feet.

I think most who have viewed the videos think that Gray had problems before being placed in the van. RavenSky is a proud contrarian. I imagine some direct their attention to the van to fulfill a preconceived notion of police brutality - no video evidence of abuse so it must have happened in the van. In addition to the video, other reported evidence suggests that Gray had problems before the van arrived, e.g., he requested an inhaler. The presented chronology significantly narrows when the injury could have occurred had it happened in the van.

- 8:42:52, a wagon is requested for transport and Gray asks for an inhaler

Batts said Gray could have received better care while in custody.

"He asked for the inhaler as he was going into (the van) at one or two of the stops, it was noticed that he was having a little trouble breathing, where we probably should have asked for paramedics or had him look into that at that time," Batts said.

- 8:46:02, The driver of the prisoner transport van believes Gray is acting irate in the back

- 8:46:12, a unit asks the wagon to stop so the paperwork can be completed; Gray is placed in leg irons and put back in the wagon

- 8:54:02, the van leaves

- 8:59:02, the driver picks up another prisoner and asks for an additional unit to check on Gray.

The five minutes from 8:54 to 8:59 is important because:

Sources told the 11 News I-Team that the van made a third stop to pick up another prisoner. At that location, sources said, Gray was unresponsive, but no medic was called until the wagon reached the Western District precinct around 9:24 a.m.

So either Gray's spine was broken before entering the van or it occurred in this five-minute window. I lean towards the former, but whatever.

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/charging-documents-freddie-gray-ran-from-police/32468120

 

[RavenSky]

Are you proposing that the injury was inflicting while in the van? The video seems to indicate that the injury was inflicted before entering the van. He had to be carried. He wasn't standing on his own two feet.

I think most who have viewed the videos think that Gray had problems before being placed in the van. RavenSky is a proud contrarian. I imagine some direct their attention to the van to fulfill a preconceived notion of police brutality - no video evidence of abuse so it must have happened in the van. In addition to the video, other reported evidence suggests that Gray had problems before the van arrived, e.g., he requested an inhaler. The presented chronology significantly narrows when the injury could have occurred had it happened in the van.

- 8:42:52, a wagon is requested for transport and Gray asks for an inhaler

Batts said Gray could have received better care while in custody.

"He asked for the inhaler as he was going into (the van) at one or two of the stops, it was noticed that he was having a little trouble breathing, where we probably should have asked for paramedics or had him look into that at that time," Batts said.

- 8:46:02, The driver of the prisoner transport van believes Gray is acting irate in the back

- 8:46:12, a unit asks the wagon to stop so the paperwork can be completed; Gray is placed in leg irons and put back in the wagon

- 8:54:02, the van leaves

- 8:59:02, the driver picks up another prisoner and asks for an additional unit to check on Gray.

The five minutes from 8:54 to 8:59 is important because:

Sources told the 11 News I-Team that the van made a third stop to pick up another prisoner. At that location, sources said, Gray was unresponsive, but no medic was called until the wagon reached the Western District precinct around 9:24 a.m.

So either Gray's spine was broken before entering the van or it happened in this five-minute window. I lean towards the former, but whatever.

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/charging-documents-freddie-gray-ran-from-police/32468120

First of all, there certainly was video evidence of police abuse before placing Freddie Gray in the van the first time - unless you are of the opinion that kneeling on someone's neck and bending their legs to their back while they are face down on the pavement is not abusive...

Nevertheless, if you prefer to believe that the police broke his spine before placing him in the van the first time, you go right ahead and hold onto that belief. Apparently people can stand on their own two feet and turn their heads to look over their shoulder after their spine has been fractured in three places. Who knew!

In the absence of conclusive evidence otherwise, I will continue to believe that the injuries happened between the time they put the leg irons on him (when he was still alive and responsive) and when they pulled him out of the van "unresponsive". Don't see what is so contrarian about that