Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[Trausti]

I think most who have viewed the videos think that Gray had problems before being placed in the van. RavenSky is a proud contrarian. I imagine some direct their attention to the van to fulfill a preconceived notion of police brutality - no video evidence of abuse so it must have happened in the van. In addition to the video, other reported evidence suggests that Gray had problems before the van arrived, e.g., he requested an inhaler. The presented chronology significantly narrows when the injury could have occurred had it happened in the van.

- 8:42:52, a wagon is requested for transport and Gray asks for an inhaler

Batts said Gray could have received better care while in custody.

"He asked for the inhaler as he was going into (the van) at one or two of the stops, it was noticed that he was having a little trouble breathing, where we probably should have asked for paramedics or had him look into that at that time," Batts said.

- 8:46:02, The driver of the prisoner transport van believes Gray is acting irate in the back

- 8:46:12, a unit asks the wagon to stop so the paperwork can be completed; Gray is placed in leg irons and put back in the wagon

- 8:54:02, the van leaves

- 8:59:02, the driver picks up another prisoner and asks for an additional unit to check on Gray.

The five minutes from 8:54 to 8:59 is important because:

Sources told the 11 News I-Team that the van made a third stop to pick up another prisoner. At that location, sources said, Gray was unresponsive, but no medic was called until the wagon reached the Western District precinct around 9:24 a.m.

So either Gray's spine was broken before entering the van or it happened in this five-minute window. I lean towards the former, but whatever.

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/charging-documents-freddie-gray-ran-from-police/32468120

First of all, there certainly was video evidence of police abuse before placing Freddie Gray in the van the first time - unless you are of the opinion that kneeling on someone's neck and bending their legs to their back while they are face down on the pavement is not abusive...

Nevertheless, if you prefer to believe that the police broke his spine before placing him in the van the first time, you go right ahead and hold onto that belief. Apparently people can stand on their own two feet and turn their heads to look over their shoulder after their spine has been fractured in three places. Who knew!

In the absence of conclusive evidence otherwise, I will continue to believe that the injuries happened between the time they put the leg irons on him (when he was still alive and responsive) and when they pulled him out of the van "unresponsive". Don't see what is so contrarian about that

Uh. There is no video of police abuse. There is no video of the police kneeling on his neck. You know that. I know that. The Flying Spaghetti Monster knows that. I'm of the view that the police didn't break his spine at all, as it takes extraordinary force to do so. And to do so in the absence of other signs of trauma requires the suspension of disbelief. You can break your neck but still have nerve function to your extremities, you know. However, had Gray's neck broke while in police custody, it presumably must have happened in that five-minute window. Missing in any case is evidence that the police intentionally harmed Gray.

Quit being so contrarian!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As suspected the story is false.

Those reports — which raise questions about the injury that led to his death in April 19 — point to Howard County court records as proof.

But court records examined Wednesday by The Baltimore Sun show the case had nothing to do with a car accident or a spine injury. Instead, they are connected to a lawsuit alleging that Gray and his sister were injured by exposure lead paint.

And the genetics of big scary black men with spines hardened by slavery marches on.

The link you failed to include: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-gray-settlement-20150429-story.html


It's talking about the structured settlement, this is in no way a rebuttal of the issue of spinal surgery.

What spinal surgery?

 

[RavenSky]

Uh. There is no video of police abuse. There is no video of the police kneeling on his neck.

the video was linked to at least twice in this thread. If you refuse to watch it, I cant make you; but then I can certainly dismiss everything you say about this case due to your self imposed ignorance.

However, had Gray's neck broke while in police custody, it presumably must have happened in that five-minute window. Missing in any case is evidence that the police intentionally harmed Gray.

I agree that it happened in that five minute window. As for "intentional", I guess that depends on how one defines "intentional".

I have never said that I thought the police purposely broke his neck, and/or purposely killed him. However, the second they detained him, his health and well-being was 100% in their hands, and their complete lack of regard for his health and safety is what killed him. They are 100% responsible.

First, though not the direct cause of his death, the fact that they ignored his requests for his inhaler and/or medical attention shows their utter disregard for his health and safety. Even they admit that much.

Second, failing to put his seat belt on after they put him in the back of the van (in violation of their own rules) shows their utter disregard for his health and safety. Even they admit that much.

Third, putting a man in both hand cuffs and leg irons in the back of the van without a seat belt on him is something that an imbecile knows puts his life at risk. These same police would arrest a parent in an instant if they saw children without seatbelts in the back of a car. But they didn't know that shackling a man hand and foot so he can't possibly brace himself, and leaving off his seat belt, isn't dangerous to the int of life-threatening?

Bullshit.

 

[barbos]

Where is the video with police abuse?
The one I saw contains police dragging a guy who is clearly not well and screaming into the van. He is not even resisting because he can't I think.
I would say his was neck broken before they started to drag him.
So if anything happened it happened before the van.

 

[Trausti]

Where is the video with police abuse?
The one I saw contains police dragging a guy who is clearly not well and screaming into the van. He is not even resisting because he can't I think. I would say his was neck broken before they started to drag him.

According to RavenSky, you can't trust your lying eyes.

 

[RavenSky]

How convenient.

A*prisoner claims*Freddie Gray could be heard "banging against the walls" of a Baltimore police van and might have been trying to hurt himself, the Washington Post reports*Wednesday.

The Post obtained a police document, an application for a search warrant, in which the prisoner*makes his claims about Gray. The prisoner, who is in jail but not identified, was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him.

It is not known if there is any other evidence to back up the prisoner's claim, the Post reports.

Gray, 25, died one week after reportedly suffering a serious spinal injury while in police custody on April 12. Police say it's unknown if Gray was injured while being arrested or while he was in the van.

 

[Trausti]

And the plot thickens.

A prisoner sharing a police transport van with Freddie Gray told investigators that he could hear Gray “banging against the walls” of the vehicle and believed that he “was intentionally trying to injure himself,” according to a police document obtained by The Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/prisoner-in-van-said-freddie-gray-was-banging-against-the-walls-during-ride/2015/04/29/56d7da10-eec6-11e4-8666-a1d756d0218e_story.html

 

[RavenSky]

Where is the video with police abuse?
The one I saw contains police dragging a guy who is clearly not well and screaming into the van. He is not even resisting because he can't I think. I would say his was neck broken before they started to drag him.

According to RavenSky, you can't trust your lying eyes.

Actually, according to RavenSky, the full video has been linked in this thread at least twice. I already went and found it and linked it in this thread for another person who claimed he hadn't seen what was being played on every news station for days. You two can go watch it or not, I don't really give a shit. But your determination to close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears on a point of fact that really doesn't have much to do with anything anyway just makes you look silly.

 

[Trausti]

According to RavenSky, you can't trust your lying eyes.

Actually, according to RavenSky, the full video has been linked in this thread at least twice. I already went and found it and linked it in this thread for another person who claimed he hadn't seen what was being played on every news station for days. You two can go watch it or not, I don't really give a shit. But your determination to close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears on a point of fact that really doesn't have much to do with anything anyway just makes you look silly.

Okay. Obviously barbos and I and pretty much everyone else lacks your gift of sight. Without linking to the video again - 'cause really, barbos and I are probably too dense to see it - please describe what it is you observe which makes you feel that there was abuse. Are you seeing abuse akin to police brutality? Or are you seeing abuse using some proprietary definition?

 

[barbos]

I am not sifting through 17 pages, post the other video please.

 

[arkirk]

the video was linked to at least twice in this thread. If you refuse to watch it, I cant make you; but then I can certainly dismiss everything you say about this case due to your self imposed ignorance.

However, had Gray's neck broke while in police custody, it presumably must have happened in that five-minute window. Missing in any case is evidence that the police intentionally harmed Gray.

I agree that it happened in that five minute window. As for "intentional", I guess that depends on how one defines "intentional".

I have never said that I thought the police purposely broke his neck, and/or purposely killed him. However, the second they detained him, his health and well-being was 100% in their hands, and their complete lack of regard for his health and safety is what killed him. They are 100% responsible.

First, though not the direct cause of his death, the fact that they ignored his requests for his inhaler and/or medical attention shows their utter disregard for his health and safety. Even they admit that much.

Second, failing to put his seat belt on after they put him in the back of the van (in violation of their own rules) shows their utter disregard for his health and safety. Even they admit that much.

Third, putting a man in both hand cuffs and leg irons in the back of the van without a seat belt on him is something that an imbecile knows puts his life at risk. These same police would arrest a parent in an instant if they saw children without seatbelts in the back of a car. But they didn't know that shackling a man hand and foot so he can't possibly brace himself, and leaving off his seat belt, isn't dangerous to the int of life-threatening?

Bullshit.

It looks like utter disregard for someone completely in custody...every bit the same thing as leaving the body of somebody you shoot laying in the middle of the street for hours....utter disregard for Mr. Gray. I note there seems to be a chorus of support for these racist cops. You really can't win em all, even with your own on this forum....It appears the Gray family got a bit too uppity...and the cops then leapfrogged right over them into super-uppityness and Loren went right along with them.

 

[barbos]

I don't dispute police negligence, but it appears his neck was broken before the arrest.
Police should have seen that the guy is not well and sent him to the hospital immediately.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Baltimore Residents Urged To Stay Indoors Until Social Progress Naturally Takes Its Course Over Next Century

http://www.theonion.com/articles/ba...lMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default

 

[ZiprHead]

How convenient.

A*prisoner claims*Freddie Gray could be heard "banging against the walls" of a Baltimore police van and might have been trying to hurt himself, the Washington Post reports*Wednesday.

The Post obtained a police document, an application for a search warrant, in which the prisoner*makes his claims about Gray. The prisoner, who is in jail but not identified, was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him.

It is not known if there is any other evidence to back up the prisoner's claim, the Post reports.

Gray, 25, died one week after reportedly suffering a serious spinal injury while in police custody on April 12. Police say it's unknown if Gray was injured while being arrested or while he was in the van.

Actually I'll admit that my theory of police banging him around in the back of the van to be busted. Both prisoners would have experienced the same banging but apparently did not.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

How convenient.

Actually I'll admit that my theory of police banging him around in the back of the van to be busted. Both prisoners would have experienced the same banging but apparently did not.

Not necessarily. We'll probably never know what truly happened, but oftentimes beating one person senseless within earshot of others to get them to cooperate is an effective tactic. It is common in human trafficking. Often times a captive will be selected to be beaten within an inch of their lives (or brutally raped) to illicit cooperation. That being said, there would have to be a lot of cooperation and forethought by the officers in this case for this to have gone down this way, but then again the fact that this statement is coming from a prisoner in custody makes the question of coercion or threats come up. That being said, even if the prisoner recants and says the officers beat Grey senseless and threatened him with the same, the reasonable doubt will still be out there.

In other words, this thread is not going away anytime soon.

 

[laughing dog]

And the plot thickens.

A prisoner sharing a police transport van with Freddie Gray told investigators that he could hear Gray “banging against the walls” of the vehicle and believed that he “was intentionally trying to injure himself,” according to a police document obtained by The Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/prisoner-in-van-said-freddie-gray-was-banging-against-the-walls-during-ride/2015/04/29/56d7da10-eec6-11e4-8666-a1d756d0218e_story.html

Instead of engaging in medical diagnosis and the grasping of straws, just wait for the results of the investigation.
Even if Mr. Gray's neck was broken before he entered the van, the police had a responsibility to see to his health and they certainly had the responsibility to make him safe in the van (which includes making it difficult if not impossible to "bang against the walls").

 

[Nice Squirrel]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/30/doubts-freddie-gray-injured-himself_n_7177356.html

And it appears the leaked prisoner's story isn't adding up.

Gray was only in the van with the second prisoner for the final five minutes of the ride, Miller told Lawrence O’Donnell on Wednesday evening. There is “no evidence [Gray was] banging [his] head against van,” Miller tweeted. Jane Cook, an attorney for the Gray family, called the report “speculation” as she had seen no evidence supporting it.

Jason Downs, another attorney of the Gray's, told the Post the prisoner's statement was new to them.

"We disagree with any implication that Freddie Gray severed his own spinal cord," Downs said. "We question the accuracy of the police reports we’ve seen thus far, including the police report that says Mr. Gray was arrested without force or incident."

While the timeline of Gray’s arrest remains incomplete, Baltimore Police Commissioner Anthony Batts said that before the second prisoner was loaded into the van, an officer had to “pick [Gray] up off the floor and place him on the seat.” Police said he asked for medical attention at this point. He had earlier been placed in leg irons after an officer felt he was becoming "irate," police said.

Police also admitted Gray was handcuffed but not secured with a seat belt while being transported.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And the plot thickens.

The straws are grasping.

A prisoner sharing a police transport van with Freddie Gray told investigators that he could hear Gray “banging against the walls” of the vehicle and believed that he “was intentionally trying to injure himself,” according to a police document obtained by The Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...d7da10-eec6-11e4-8666-a1d756d0218e_story.html

So the second prisoner heard this.

 

[Rhea]

Wait, we're saying that a second prisoner was added to a separate section of a van after the events of the arrest and after a 25 minute drive and that in those five minutes, he heard a guy who we know from later facts is in the process of dying from a severed spinal cord and breathing problems, he heard the guy banging?

What ON EARTH do you suppose might be the explanation?
Maybe he's desperate for help and having trouble breathing!
Maybe he's trying to injure himself!
Could it be... SATAN!?

 

[Sarpedon]

Fortunately the other prisoner was a member of the Baltimore symphony orchestra who also has a degree in medicine and psychology, so his sensitive ears can easily distinguish the difference between someone banging on the wall because they need help, to someone forcefully banging on the wall with intent to injure themselves, and someone who is banging on the wall merely because he is upset about having been arrested.