Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[laughing dog]

The UN should never have been in the tunnels to be abandoning them. That is, if the UN wasn't supporting the terrorists.

Is it possible the UN was checking on the status of remaining hostages?

Hamas never let the Red Cross have any access to the hostages. Why would you expect the UN to have access?[/

Note, however, that the jobs of everyone working for the UN in Gaza hinge on the conflict continuing. Peace would end their jobs.

Peace would end Netanhayu’s job and his radical coalition’s power - something you don’t seem to think matters. Your selective invocation of a rent seeking explanation reflrcts on you more than anyone’s motivations.

Netanyahu would only be out of a job if it became apparent that peace was permanent. And he would be out of a job by then anyway.

And I note that you didn't even address the issue with the Red Cross.

I notice you didn’t address my point.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Doctors, journalists, teachers, academics and other professionals are also being killed at wholly unprecedented rates. To date, Israel has killed: over 311 doctors, nurses and other health workers, including doctors and ambulance drivers killed on duty;103 journalists, amounting to over one per day, and more than 73 per cent of the total number of journalists and media workers killed globally in 2023; 40 civil defence workers — responsible for helping to dig victims out of the rubble — killed while on duty; and over 209 teachers and educational staff. 144 United Nations employees have also been killed, the “highest number of aid workers killed in UN history in such a short time”.

"Experts are beginning to warn that the numbers of Palestinians dying as a result of disease and hunger, could already be outstripping violent deaths caused by Israeli army assaults."

But why is this happening? Because Hamas wants it to happen! They have the food, they don't let it reach the people.

Then going into more gory detail about how murderous and destructive the attacks are, like destroying cultural facilities like schools and universities.

Because all such things are designed around being used by Hamas. Their destruction is an objective of Hamas, not merely a consequence. World aid is going to pour in to rebuild them and a decent percentage will get diverted to Hamas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Top UN Court to Hear Genocide Case Against Israel Next Week

UN is getting less relevant by the day. Where is the genocide case against Hamas or Iran? Let's not lose track of who started this war, or why.

For that matter, where's the case against Boko Haram? Or Morocco (for their actions in Western Sahara)? Or Sudan? (The partition hasn't ended the genocide.)

All of those make Gaza pale in comparison.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"“Separate but equal didn’t work in our country,” she said, referring to the various proposals that would establish an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel. “We tried and it didn’t work. Segregation made it more violent for Black neighbors.”

Here's the thing.
I see the Jewish Zionists as more like the black folks moving to white towns and neighborhoods, in the face of huge objections from the dominant culture. Objections to the point of violence.

What's generally referred to as "apartheid" is Zionists telling their dominant neighbors "Stay out of my yard and stop attacking my children or I'll kick your ass."
And then having to do so because the neighbors kept attacking their yard and children. Which is what IDF is doing right now in Gaza.
Tom

Except the Palestinians have made it clear that the "occupied" territory is Israel itself. Just because they're underdogs doesn't mean they're automatically in the right.

 

[laughing dog]

Top UN Court to Hear Genocide Case Against Israel Next Week

UN is getting less relevant by the day. Where is the genocide case against Hamas or Iran? Let's not lose track of who started this war, or why.

For that matter, where's the case against Boko Haram? Or Morocco (for their actions in Western Sahara)? Or Sudan? (The partition hasn't ended the genocide.)

All of those make Gaza pale in comparison.

UN International Court of Justice deals with contentious issues between states. Boko Haram is not a state. Morocco’s actions are an internal matter. So are Sudan’s.

Hence none of them would fall under the UN’s ICJ purview.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Top UN Court to Hear Genocide Case Against Israel Next Week

UN is getting less relevant by the day. Where is the genocide case against Hamas or Iran? Let's not lose track of who started this war, or why.

They have lost all credibility to me. Sorry for the derail, but they should be renamed to the "united nations against Israel". Fine with me to hold Israel's feet to the fire when they violate international law. But why the fuck don't they apply the same to Russia, China, Syria and other countries? Sorry for derail: but it's been announced that the Ukraine children kidnapped by Russia are now being issued Russian passports. The Ukranian POWs who have been forcibly drafted into the Russian army saw their first action against Ukraine a couple days ago. Russia has been caught several times executing POWs. They deliberately target civilians. And yet the UN does nothing.

 

[Derec]

But why the fuck don't they apply the same to Russia, China, Syria and other countries?

No Jews, no news.

 

[bilby]

anyone crossing the border is considered hostile regardless of appearance

See, you think that that's a justification for the Israeli behaviour; But in fact, it's the very behaviour you need (somehow) to try to justify.

Refusing to treat individual people as individuals is morally indefensible.

 

[Derec]

It is the UN court, not the General Assembly.

No shit, Sherlock.
The General Assembly is not the only UN organ biased against Israel.
How about the Orwellesque UN Human Rights Council? Or UNRWA which exists solely for Palestinians and has a very different definition of "refugee" than that applied to any other people? UNRWA schools have also been caught spreading antisemitic propaganda.
Report finds incitement, antisemitism still prevalent in UNRWA classrooms

UN is in a crisis of legitimacy. It needs to be fundamentally reformed. First order of business should be to shut down UNRWA. It is an anachronism.

 

[bilby]

Top UN Court to Hear Genocide Case Against Israel Next Week

UN is getting less relevant by the day. Where is the genocide case against Hamas or Iran? Let's not lose track of who started this war, or why.

They have lost all credibility to me. Sorry for the derail, but they should be renamed to the "united nations against Israel". Fine with me to hold Israel's feet to the fire when they violate international law. But why the fuck don't they apply the same to Russia, China, Syria and other countries? Sorry for derail: but it's been announced that the Ukraine children kidnapped by Russia are now being issued Russian passports. The Ukranian POWs who have been forcibly drafted into the Russian army saw their first action against Ukraine a couple days ago. Russia has been caught several times executing POWs. They deliberately target civilians. And yet the UN does nothing.

The UN was never a credible constraint on the (mis)behaviour of the five permanent members of the security council; And it was never intended to be.

It's fairly effective at those few areas of international relations in which none of the big five have any strong interests; But it's pretty much useless otherwise, except as a forum at which the "big five" can discuss points of contention between them - which isn't a totally valueless function.

It is steadily becoming more and more anachronistic, as the world moves on from WWII. Britain and France are arguably no longer sufficienly powerful militarily to justify their permanent seats (and the veto powers that come with them); Russia probably shouldn't have inherited the Soviet Union's seat; Germany and Japan are at least as deserving as Britain or France are.

But there's no plausible way to reform an organisation that requires, for any such reform, the giving up of power and influence by powerful members; Or even tne dilution of that influence by admitting further powerful members to the club.

Expecting the UN to act against Russia, China, or the USA; Or against any nation that is the puppet of any of these, is absurd.

The UN have done three-eighths of fuck all about Israeli breaches of international law, because the USA ties their hands. The same is true of Syrian war crimes, where Russia is protecting their client state against any serious sanction.

 

[Derec]

The war in Gaza has been going on for three months today. Yesterday it was 13 weeks exactly since the 10/7 massacre.

So, how are things going?

Fighting seems to have bogged down in Khan Younis. IDF and Hamas have been fiercely fighting there for weeks now. And fighting around KY might last for many more weeks.
At least northern Gaza seems quieter now. The tunnel network in Gaza City and environs seems to be almost completely dismantled. Same thing needs to happen in southern Gaza too. US needs to sell Israel more bunker buster bombs to better destroy Hamas underground infrastructure.

In some good news, IDF eliminated the commander of the Nuseirat Battalion.
IDF eliminates Hamas battalion commander and deputy in charge of Kibbutz Be'eri attack
Nuseirat is the city (with a so-called "refugee camp" by the same name next to it) in the Middle Gaza governorate, northeast from Khan Younis and just southwest of Wadi Gaza, a stream that divides northern from southern Gaza in this war.

It is vital to eliminate middle level commanders in addition to more senior ones. They are the ones leading the fighting on the ground, and they are the pool from which more senior positions are promoted.
According to Wikipedia,  Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the militant wing of Hamas, is in Gaza organized into 5 brigades coinciding with the 5 Gaza governorates, ~30 battalions mostly named after cities they are based in, and ~140 companies. They skip regiments.
So if we consider battalion commanders, their deputies and company commanders as mid-level commanders, there are about 200 of so of them.
A month ago IDF killed another commander, of the Shuja'iyya battalion. That neighborhood is a notorious Hamas hotbed and has been targeted by ground troops in the 2014 Protective Edge operation as well.
IDF eliminates Hamas battalion chief behind Nahal Oz massacre
The late commander, Wessam Farhat, is a scion or a notorious Hamas terror family.
Mariam Farhat, Known as ‘Mother of Martyrs,’ Dies at 64

All this is a good start. There are still a lot more battalions to go, not to mention companies. And more senior brigade-level commanders should not be neglected either.
Hamas Says Commander of Its Northern Gaza Brigade Is Dead
The overall leadership in Gaza, such as Yahya Sinwar, Fathi Hamad, or Mohammed Deif are still elusive, and could be hiding in tunnels under Khan Younis. Although, when is the last time we heard from any of them? For all we know, they might be buried under the rubble by now.

What is to happen to Gaza after the war?

Difficult question. This war is much longer and far more extensive than all the previous ones since Hamas took over in 2006 combined. The most destructive previous conflict was the Operation Protective Edge in Summer 2014. It lasted about a month and a half and number of fatalities in Gaza was about a tenth of that claimed so far in this war. The destruction of buildings and infrastructure in previous conflicts was focused of certain neighborhoods, such as so-called "refugee camps" like Jabaliya or Shati and notorious neighborhoods like Shuja'iyya. The destruction in this war is far more widespread, especially in the north, which will make reconstruction so much more difficult.

I would think that even if the war were to end soon, reconstruction would take over a decade and cost upward of $10G. You have many thousands of buildings destroyed or damaged, as well as streets and roads. Additionally, you often can't just start building in an ad hoc fashion. Where tunnels have been hit and collapsed, you need to fill it in and compact the ground for it to be suitable for any construction, lest sink holes appear. It will be a bonanza for anybody in the construction trade at least.

Which makes it all the more vital that Hamas is eliminated.
What use is reconstruction with Hamas in power? Firstly, they will redirect construction materials to rebuild their tunnel infrastructure. Secondly, if Hamas is in power, they will no doubt attack Israel again (as they were very clear to point out) and thus any reconstruction would be useless (since the reconstructed buildings and infrastructure would be liable to be hit again in the next war).

 

[laughing dog]

It is the UN court, not the General Assembly.

No shit, Sherlock…..

Do you have a shred of actual evidence that the UN ICJ is biased against Israel? Rants about other agencies is not evidence against a court.

UN is in a crisis of legitimacy. It needs to be fundamentally reformed. First order of business should be to shut down UNRWA. It is an anachronism.

The UN’s failure to meet your or my expectations does not qualify as any sort of crisis.

 

[Derec]

Do you have a shred of actual evidence that the UN ICJ is biased against Israel?

It is a UN body and UN has a long history of bias against Israel.

 

[laughing dog]

Do you have a shred of actual evidence that the UN ICJ is biased against Israel?

It is a UN body and UN has a long history of bias against Israel.

In other words, you have nothing specific.

 

[Derec]

In other words, you have nothing specific.

It's a criticism of the United Nations as a whole, yes.

 

[Bomb#20]

What definition of the term 'oppression' do you use, and how do you decide who is oppressing whom?

You want to bandy words over technicalities about the definition of "oppression"? Seriously? Does it also depend on what the definition of "is" is? I define "oppression" by common usage and I decide who is oppressing whom by common sense.

I want to understand what you mean.

The term oppression is used to indicate an exercise of unjust and abusive power or authority by one person or group over another.

Yes. That is what it means in common usage. That is what I mean by it. That is what the Israelis and the Palestinians have been doing to each other for the last seventy-five years. This is not rocket science.

The Palestinians have not had authority over Israelis at any time over the last 75 years.

Israelis gained authority<snip>

Oh for the love of god, are you sincerely under the impression that one has to have authority in order to have "power or authority" over another?!? What exactly do you think the word "or" means? Do you think it means "and"?!?

Fighting, strife, insurrection, resisting occupation, resisting colonization, etc. are not acts of oppression.

Why did you write that? Are you sincerely under the impression that "Fighting, strife, insurrection, resisting occupation, resisting colonization" is an accurate way to describe murdering noncombatants, kidnapping children, and raping women and girls? If the war-faction of the Palestinians wanted to engage in "Fighting, strife, insurrection, resisting occupation, resisting colonization" they could perfectly well attack military targets.

Terrorism can be, but only when the terrorism is committed by those in power, or those protected and enabled by those in power, like the KKK in the USA.

And Hamas was in power. Denying it is a propagandistic word game.

It is not used to indicate mutual hostilities between parties.

Was that a description of the relationship between a five-year-old and the thug who grabbed him and dragged him across the border? "Mutual hostilities"? Looks to me like an exercise of power by the thug over the five-year-old. I consider the act unjust and abusive. Don't you?

It was unjust and abusive. It was not oppression unless the thug was abusing his authority.

I.e., you are refusing point blank to apply logic to your own definition. Your definition said "power or", and now you are trying to disappear that down the memory hole and have your readers accept the ridiculous notion that authority is required.

For example, if the thug was employed by the government that had control over the lives of civilians, and the government had decided to imprison children in order to terrorize and punish their parents, that would be an abuse of power and thus, oppression.

And that is exactly what Hamas did. Do you now want us all to pretend Hamas isn't a government? Do you now want us all to pretend Hamas didn't have control over the lives of the civilians whose lives it deliberately took? If Hamas did not have control over those lives then those people would not be dead.

Taking children without the authority to do so, is kidnapping.

And kidnapping is oppressive, going by your own definition, quoted above.

I believe you are using it as an appeal to emotion but I recognize you might be saying something else.

A. That assaults, rapes, kidnappings and murders are an exercise of power is a plain fact. Disputing that would take an extraordinary level of self-deception.

B. That they are an exercise of "power or authority" follows by elementary logic from the fact that they are an exercise of power.

Having the power to do something does not indicate having the authority to do it.

And that is irrelevant because oppression does not require authority. Reread your own definition.

You said you are using a common definition of oppression

It's ***YOUR*** definition!

but you are completely divorcing it from the exercise of institutional power so that you can claim Palestinians oppress Israelis.

It makes not the slightest difference to the murder, kidnapping and rape victims whether the power that was exercised over them was "institutional". Why are you quibbling over the definition of "oppress"? Why do you believe insisting "oppress" has to be "institutional" does the slightest bit of good for your position? The pattern of decade-after-decade back-and-forth vengeful wrongdoing between Palestinians and Israelis is not a match for the pattern of one-sided wrongdoing black South Africans were subjected to by Afrikaaners, whether you refuse to use the word "oppress" or not. Pretending they are the same pattern is peddling deliberate disinformation.

It reminds me of Lost Cause mythology that calls the American Civil War the War of Northern Aggression.

The South attacked the North. Jefferson Davis ordered his troops to fire on Fort Sumter. Calling it the War of Northern Aggression is make-believe. In contrast, what I said about Israelis and Palestinians was factual. The only reason my argument could remind you of that is you being in the grip of religious delusion -- like Palestinians can't be oppressors the same as black people can't be racist, because the progressive religion has no principles, only a stack.

 

[Gospel]

Do you now want us all to pretend Hamas isn't a government?

The U.S. government (your country) does not recognize Hamas as a legitimate government entity. Instead, it classifies Hamas as a terrorist organization. Hamas was elected in 2007 2006 and subsequently seized power by force in the Gaza Strip. Therefore, it seems you're the one pretending that Hamas is the legitimate government.

Edit: Note, I agree with most of the other things you've said.
Edit 2: Correction. Hamas was actually elected in 2006. In 2007, they engaged in violent conflicts with their political rivals, which culminated in their takeover of the Gaza Strip.

 

[lpetrich]

Malaysia bans Israel-flagged ships from its ports in response to Gaza war | Israel War on Gaza News | Al Jazeera - 2023 Dec 20 - "PM says Israel’s actions ‘violate international law through the ongoing massacre and brutality against Palestinians’."

On Wednesday, Malaysian Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim announced the decision to impose the maritime ban on Israel-affiliated vessels – singling out ZIM, Israel’s largest shipping firm – amid growing alarm over disruptions to global shipping as a result of attacks on cargo ships in the Red Sea.

Ships on their way to Israel will also be barred from loading cargo at any port in the Southeast Asian nation with immediate effect, Anwar said in a statement.

 

[laughing dog]

What definition of the term 'oppression' do you use, and how do you decide who is oppressing whom?

You want to bandy words over technicalities about the definition of "oppression"? Seriously? Does it also depend on what the definition of "is" is? I define "oppression" by common usage and I decide who is oppressing whom by common sense.

I want to understand what you mean.

The term oppression is used to indicate an exercise of unjust and abusive power or authority by one person or group over another.

Yes. That is what it means in common usage. That is what I mean by it. That is what the Israelis and the Palestinians have been doing to each other for the last seventy-five years. This is not rocket science.

I agree, it is not rocket science - it is hyperbolic propaganda. "The Palestinians" as a group cannot possibly be reasonably judged to have oppressed anyone but themselves for the last 75 years. Even by your idiosyncratic usage, Palestinians in the West Bank have not oppressed Israel in the last 10 years or more. On the other hand, the West Bank is a clear example of oppression by Israelis of the residents there.

Hamas has been oppressing the civilians in Gaza. I suppose one could stretch the conventional usage of "oppression" to include Israel. I certainly would not quibble over that. In my opinion, the level of oppression is not evenhanded - Israel is far more oppressive towards "the Palestinians" than they are towards Israel, but that is just my opinion.

 

[Gospel]

Overall, I think Israel fell for the bait (October 7, 2023) yo. They are overestimating their power in the region and it shows in the amount of destruction they've leveled in Gaza. Hamas needs the destruction in Gaza substantially more than Israel does. Arabs are witnessing poverty stricken people that have been oppressed and killed by their own government for many years now being bombed to hell by outside forces (one of which has been a point of contention in the Arab world at that). I expect the next generation of Arabs taking a look at what's been happening in their world from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan etc. just might become a problem for their neighbor who couldn't win a war of attrition in the region even if they were backed by China, Russia & the USA. The west got close to rocking Arabs to sleep over the last few decades & then Israel barges into the room drum & cymbal tossing confetti around, blowing party horns & popping balloons.