Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

UN warns Gaza is now ‘uninhabitable’ as war continues | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

As Hamas wants. They chose the path of massacre knowing what would happen. Blame them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Western Sahara is in basically the same situation as Gaza--no recognized government and controlled by an outside power.

And I note you didn't address Sudan.

Ahem “The genocide in Sudan is internal fighting” addresses it since the ICJ is for state vs state issues.

Saying this doesn't make it true.

In this instance, it is true.

I already pointed out South Sudan.

Yes you did. And, you are misinformed.

Are you not aware that Sudanese irregulars are still going after the people in South Sudan?

And what about Russian genocide in Ukraine?

What about it?
Ukraine vs Russia: Allegations of Genocide

Why isn't the ICJ doing anything?

The ICJ is a court with an ongoing case, not Rambo.

It is apparent from your responses you are the illusion that the ICJ seeks out cases and prosecutes defendants. It doesn’t which you would know if you bothered to find out. I did - it took 10 minutes.

So? They're not going to actually take action against Israel, either.

The ICJ issues rulings/findings but has no enforcement power. Do you mean that you believe there will be no ruling or that it will not find against Russia and not find against Israel?

So your comment about Rambo is irrelevant.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But it is still dominated by violent theocratic terrorists.

Israel's objective is to remove Hamas entirely. While there's no certainty of success, my focus is on what Israel might do subsequently to prevent Hamas' return. It seems my point may not be coming across clearly. I acknowledge the presence of Hamas, I'm not contesting that fact; rather, I'm exploring Israel's potential strategies post-Hamas." You're arguing against a claim no one made.

There is a certainty of failure. They know they can't root them all out, the true objective is to do as much damage as possible to Hamas to make it longer before there's another such conflict. Unfortunately, only ass-whoopings make things more peaceful.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And? The two categories are not mutually exclusive. The Iranian regime is both a government and a terrorist organization. So's the North Korean regime. So's the Syrian regime. So's the Afghan regime. So's ISIS.

North Korea?? They're a rogue nation but how much terror do they do??? Their export is simply crime. (Drug smuggling, ransomware etc.)

How much terror do they do? Maybe more than the rest of the world put together. I didn't say it was exported. It uses terrorism systematically against the North Korean people. Google "three generations of punishment" some time. (Likewise, Syrian and Afghan government terrorism are mainly internal.)

It's certainly oppression but since there is no political objective how is it terrorism?

As far as exported terrorism goes, there's some:

North Korean abductions of Japanese citizens - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yeah, I didn't say they did nothing. I said that it was a small amount in comparison with the states it was being compared to.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

According to the State Department, West-Bank Palestinians murdered twelve Israeli civilians in terror attacks in Israel in 2022 alone...

Israeli settler attacks on West Bank Palestinians have escalated since Oct. 7, UN says

<snip>

What's your point? Did somebody claim Israelis are not oppressing West Bank Palestinians?

What's your point when you only mention it happening on one side?

You were being one-sided and he pointed out it goes both ways. And, since most of the claimed settler violence doesn't stand up to scrutiny why would we think the current reports are any more honest?

 

[ZiprHead]

According to the State Department, West-Bank Palestinians murdered twelve Israeli civilians in terror attacks in Israel in 2022 alone...

Israeli settler attacks on West Bank Palestinians have escalated since Oct. 7, UN says

<snip>

What's your point? Did somebody claim Israelis are not oppressing West Bank Palestinians?

What's your point when you only mention it happening on one side?

You were being one-sided and he pointed out it goes both ways. And, since most of the claimed settler violence doesn't stand up to scrutiny why would we think the current reports are any more honest?

He pointed out only one side before me. I pointed out the other side does the same.

 

[laughing dog]

Western Sahara is in basically the same situation as Gaza--no recognized government and controlled by an outside power.

And I note you didn't address Sudan.

Ahem “The genocide in Sudan is internal fighting” addresses it since the ICJ is for state vs state issues.

Saying this doesn't make it true.

In this instance, it is true.

I already pointed out South Sudan.

Yes you did. And, you are misinformed.

Are you not aware that Sudanese irregulars are still going after the people in South Sudan?

You saying it is doesn’t make it so.

Assuming you are correct, there has been no allegation brought by state against Sudan?

And what about Russian genocide in Ukraine?

What about it?
Ukraine vs Russia: Allegations of Genocide

Why isn't the ICJ doing anything?

The ICJ is a court with an ongoing case, not Rambo.

It is apparent from your responses you are the illusion that the ICJ seeks out cases and prosecutes defendants. It doesn’t which you would know if you bothered to find out. I did - it took 10 minutes.

So? They're not going to actually take action against Israel, either.

The ICJ issues rulings/findings but has no enforcement power. Do you mean that you believe there will be no ruling or that it will not find against Russia and not find against Israel?

So your comment about Rambo is irrelevant.

Would you explain your koan?

 

[steve_bank]

Israel has talked about forcing people out of Gaza, so there it is. Israel's 'final solution'.

Now Blinken is saying here must be an independent Palestinian stat and Jewish colonization and occupation of the West Bank must end. About 40 years too late.

And with our 'stern' commentary Netanyahu essentially says fuck off, keep giving us weapons, and we are not changing anything.

Netanyahu tried to maneuver Obama into attacking Iran, and Obama did not. Now it appears we a facing a potential 'Tonkin Gulf Incident' where an alleged attack by NK on our Navy led to expansion of our involvement.

Biden has not learned from VN, Iraq, and Afghanistan. We can not bomb our way to accusing ends.

Yet here we are bombing Yemen as if it is going to stop aggression on shipping. One thing leads to another and we attack Iran, with little oversight on such war making by Congress.

Then the lid comes off in the region. Arab oil infrastructure damaged and destroyed, oil prices soar.

It does not take an expert historian to see it.

All because of a small nation of about 10 million and its longstanding treatment of a population with no alternatives. A nation founded by seizing land and displacing people who lived on it.

All jusfified by a claim that Jews lived there 2000 years ago and so they own it, adding bifocal divnie right.

 

[Copernicus]

Now Blinken is saying here must be an independent Palestinian stat and Jewish colonization and occupation of the West Bank must end. About 40 years too late.

This has the longstanding US policy for many years, not a policy shift. Israel has paid lip service to it, because they depend on American sponsorship for their defense. However, the not-so-secret policy of the Likud governments under Netanyahu has been to continue gobbling up land in the West Bank, and US administrations have essentially turned a blind eye to it. The whole point of Israel's shoring up of Hamas in Gaza was to split the Palestinian resistance into two opposing camps--the radical Hamas government in Gaza and the more moderate Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. That's why Israel allowed Hamas to receive funding and aid to keep it in power. Israel did not want Hamas to fail, just to help them gradually torpedo the two-state solution that the US and the international community was trying to establish. Meanwhile, Hamas used the opportunity it was granted to do what terrorists do best--build up an organization that could pull off something like the October 7 attack.

 

[Bomb#20]

What's your point? Did somebody claim Israelis are not oppressing West Bank Palestinians?

What's your point

Pay attention to context. My point, obviously, was that when ld claimed "Palestinians in the West Bank have not oppressed Israel in the last 10 years or more.", he was mistaken.

when you only mention it happening on one side?

Dude, you saw me mention it happening on both sides, and you quoted it back to me. Would it kill you to do ten seconds of fact-checking before you post an accusation?

... Even by your idiosyncratic usage, Palestinians in the West Bank have not oppressed Israel in the last 10 years or more.

According to the State Department, West-Bank Palestinians murdered twelve Israeli civilians in terror attacks in Israel in 2022 alone; several more were wounded. I'm sure you can define "as a group" in some way that lets you claim those don't count, but (a) the Palestinian Authority isn't taking effective action to prevent attacks and is in fact continuing to pay terrorists' families and imprisoned terrorists; and (b) plenty of Israelis haven't ever oppressed Palestinians and plenty of Afrikaaners never oppressed black South Africans, but you didn't object to my describing the Israelis and the Afrikaaners as oppressing their societies' respective victims on account of "as a group" quibbling. People speak in generalities because it saves time; we expect one another to recognize that it's an approximation.

 

[laughing dog]

I agree, it is not rocket science - it is hyperbolic propaganda. "The Palestinians" as a group cannot possibly be reasonably judged to have oppressed anyone but themselves for the last 75 years. Even by your idiosyncratic usage, Palestinians in the West Bank have not oppressed Israel in the last 10 years or more.

According to the State Department, West-Bank Palestinians murdered twelve Israeli civilians in terror attacks in Israel in 2022 alone; several more were wounded. I'm sure you can define "as a group" in some way that lets you claim those don't count, but (a) the Palestinian Authority isn't taking effective action to prevent attacks and is in fact continuing to pay terrorists' families and imprisoned terrorists; and (b) plenty of Israelis haven't ever oppressed Palestinians and plenty of Afrikaaners never oppressed black South Africans, but you didn't object to my describing the Israelis and the Afrikaaners as oppressing their societies' respective victims on account of "as a group" quibbling. People speak in generalities because it saves time; we expect one another to recognize that it's an approximation.

It also always for hyperbolic propaganda. The gov't of Israel oppresses the Palestinian people. The gov't of South Africa oppressed blacks. Both were elected by their constituencies. People usually understand that elected governments represent the will of the constituencies.

Equating the level and intensity of oppression by the gov't of Israel with the level and intensity of the oppression of the West Bank Palestinians and their gov't serves as propaganda, which demeans whatever argument you wish to advance.

 

[Gospel]

The State Department didn't say anything about what the Palestinian Authority did to stop attacks, or about the money they give to families of terrorists. It also doesn't compare Israelis to Afrikaaners or make sweeping statements about whole groups of people. Just sayin.

The data emphasizes the increased frequency and severity of attacks in 2022, contributing to heightened security in the region.

 

[Copernicus]

The State Department didn't say anything about what the Palestinian Authority did to stop attacks, or about the money they give to families of terrorists. It also doesn't compare Israelis to Afrikaaners or make sweeping statements about whole groups of people. Just sayin.

The data emphasizes the increased frequency and severity of attacks in 2022, contributing to heightened security in the region.

The Palestinian Authority is not considered a terrorist organization, and it would not have had any role or influence that would allow it to stop Hamas from attacking Israel.

 

[steve_bank]

Now Blinken is saying here must be an independent Palestinian stat and Jewish colonization and occupation of the West Bank must end. About 40 years too late.

This has the longstanding US policy for many years, not a policy shift. Israel has paid lip service to it, because they depend on American sponsorship for their defense. However, the not-so-secret policy of the Likud governments under Netanyahu has been to continue gobbling up land in the West Bank, and US administrations have essentially turned a blind eye to it. The whole point of Israel's shoring up of Hamas in Gaza was to split the Palestinian resistance into two opposing camps--the radical Hamas government in Gaza and the more moderate Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. That's why Israel allowed Hamas to receive funding and aid to keep it in power. Israel did not want Hamas to fail, just to help them gradually torpedo the two-state solution that the US and the international community was trying to establish. Meanwhile, Hamas used the opportunity it was granted to do what terrorists do best--build up an organization that could pull off something like the October 7 attack.

Netanyahu over his long tenure has expertly played American Christian politicians. There is a well funded Israeli PAC in the USA. Govt sponsored tours of the 'Holy Land'.

Israel is now the protector of the Christian Holy Land and Christian sites. Expert propaganda pushing American Christian buttons.

TV commercials have been running for many years by the Association Of Chridtians And Jews asking for donations to feed Holocaust suivors, with pictures of pitiable elderlly people.

Politicians call Netanyahu Bibi with affection.

An internationally recognized independent Palestinian state opens a can of worms for Israel. International standing to sue Israel for reparations.

 

[Tigers!]

An internationally recognized independent Palestinian state opens a can of worms for Israel. International standing to sue Israel for reparations.

Maybe Israel could claim reparations against the 5 countries that invaded them on 15th May 1948?

 

[Arctish]

An internationally recognized independent Palestinian state opens a can of worms for Israel. International standing to sue Israel for reparations.

Maybe Israel could claim reparations against the 5 countries that invaded them on 15th May 1948?

When was Israel recognized by the international community as a State, not just a part of Palestine that a violent faction had claimed to be a State?

 

[Derec]

 

[Bomb#20]

It also always for hyperbolic propaganda. The gov't of Israel oppresses the Palestinian people. The gov't of South Africa oppressed blacks. Both were elected by their constituencies. People usually understand that elected governments represent the will of the constituencies.

People's usual understanding is often foolish like that. Did Trump represent the will of the constituency when he won an election by negative 2.9 million votes? Did the American people ever agree they would be "represented" by one or the other of the two most unpopular politicians in the country? In most so-called representative democracies, the question put to voters is in effect "Which of the ruling committee's preselected list of scoundrels would you hate to be ruled by least?". Those infected with Social Contract mythology call this "consent of the governed". If you want a democracy to represent the will of the constituencies, you have to allow people representatives they voted for, not representatives they didn't vote against, let alone representatives they did vote against.

Equating the level and intensity of oppression by the gov't of Israel with the level and intensity of the oppression of the West Bank Palestinians and their gov't serves as propaganda, which demeans whatever argument you wish to advance.

I lost you. Where did you see me offer an opinion on the relative levels and intensities of the respective oppressions?

 

[Tigers!]

An internationally recognized independent Palestinian state opens a can of worms for Israel. International standing to sue Israel for reparations.

Maybe Israel could claim reparations against the 5 countries that invaded them on 15th May 1948?

When was Israel recognized by the international community as a State, not just a part of Palestine that a violent faction had claimed to be a State?

United Nations resolution 181 (II)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Western Sahara is in basically the same situation as Gaza--no recognized government and controlled by an outside power.

And I note you didn't address Sudan.

Ahem “The genocide in Sudan is internal fighting” addresses it since the ICJ is for state vs state issues.

Saying this doesn't make it true.

In this instance, it is true.

I already pointed out South Sudan.

Yes you did. And, you are misinformed.

Are you not aware that Sudanese irregulars are still going after the people in South Sudan?

You saying it is doesn’t make it so.

And you denying things that have been all over the news doesn't make you seem very credible. Are you saying you aren't aware of a genocide that's been ongoing for 10 years and in the news repeatedly? (Admittedly, the news often omits the fact that the atrocities are being carried out by Sudan-sponsored forces.)

Assuming you are correct, there has been no allegation brought by state against Sudan?

Because it would be an exercise in futility.

And what about Russian genocide in Ukraine?

What about it?
Ukraine vs Russia: Allegations of Genocide

Why isn't the ICJ doing anything?

The ICJ is a court with an ongoing case, not Rambo.

It is apparent from your responses you are the illusion that the ICJ seeks out cases and prosecutes defendants. It doesn’t which you would know if you bothered to find out. I did - it took 10 minutes.

So? They're not going to actually take action against Israel, either.

The ICJ issues rulings/findings but has no enforcement power. Do you mean that you believe there will be no ruling or that it will not find against Russia and not find against Israel?

So your comment about Rambo is irrelevant.

Would you explain your koan?

Would you care to explain how you think going after one impossible target is being Rambo but going after another is reasonable?