Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

No, the killing of civilians is not morally justified no matter who does it. It is a consequence of indiscriminate warfare or terrorism.

I wasn't talking about indiscriminate warfare. Indiscriminate warfare is what Russia is doing in Ukraine. And just like Hamas with Israel, Russia thinks Ukraine should be conquered by them.
But even with discriminate warfare, civilians get injured and killed. Especially when your enemy is a war criminal entity that uses civilian areas to store and deploy weapon systems like rockets (that they indiscriminately shoot at Israeli cities).
Speaking of those Palestinian rockets. A significant number of them land within the Strip. Many of the dead and injured Gazans have undoubtedly been killed by Hamas rockets, not Israeli missiles.
How Many Gaza Palestinians Were Killed by Hamas Rockets in May? An Estimate

The fact that X is attacked by Y does not absolve X of any civilian deaths of Y due to its retaliation/ defense. Your morality is simply an attempt to alleviate the inhumanity of the actions of the side you approve.

The fact that X defending themselves from Y will inevitably cause some civilian casualties in Y does in no way mean that X should refrain from defending themselves from aggression by Y. Especially if Y are genocidal terrorists who want to exterminate X.

This is whom Israel is fighting. This is whom Democratic Socialists of America and Black Lives Matter Chicago are supporting.
Real talk.

BTW, terrorist groups routinely justify their grisly actions, just like you justify the IDF’s. They don’t accept your justifications just like you don’t accept their justifications.

There is no equivalence, moral or otherwise, between the two sides. None whatsoever.

 

[Derec]

I don't think Hamas has ever called for apartheid,

No, they have called for genocide.

and I know Fatah has explicitly rejected it.

Abbas has explicitly supported ethnic cleansing of Judea and Samaria.
Abbas wants 'not a single Israeli' in future Palestinian state
Also, Fatah has its own terrorist wing, the so-called "Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades".

Both organizations call for integration of some sort in a Two State division of land and resources, or equal rights and equal treatment in a single State.

Bullshit.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't think Hamas has ever called for apartheid,

No, they have called for genocide.

and I know Fatah has explicitly rejected it.

Abbas has explicitly supported ethnic cleansing of Judea and Samaria.
Abbas wants 'not a single Israeli' in future Palestinian state
Also, Fatah has its own terrorist wing, the so-called "Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades".

Both organizations call for integration of some sort in a Two State division of land and resources, or equal rights and equal treatment in a single State.

Bullshit.

You Abbas sound like you only think genocide is the answer.

 

[laughing dog]

No, the killing of civilians is not morally justified no matter who does it. It is a consequence of indiscriminate warfare or terrorism.

I wasn't talking about indiscriminate warfare. ..

Of course you are. Flattening entire blocks of Gaza is indiscriminate warfare.

But even with discriminate warfare, civilians get injured and killed.

Not necessarily, You are just repeating the "shit happens" defense. It is an explanation of what happens but it is not a moral justification.

The fact that X defending themselves from Y will inevitably cause some civilian casualties in Y does in no way mean that X should refrain from defending themselves from aggression by Y. Especially if Y are genocidal terrorists who want to exterminate X.

Since Netanhayu just said the IDF was going to kill every single Hamas man, you realize that your rationale gives Hamas a justification for further retaliation. Just so there is no misunderstanding on your part, I don't think Hamas has any justification, but it illustrates how flexible your argument can be.

There is no equivalence, moral or otherwise, between the two sides. None whatsoever.

Of course there is some equivalence. It is bigotry like yours that keeps this violence going on both sides.

 

[Toni]

Meanwhile, the House is meeting behind closed doors to elect a new leader, without any press or any devices, without any public dissemination of the rules they will use to elect the next speaker. Who will be second in line for POTUS. Very fascist like.

It was not House chusing[sic] the Speaker, it was the Republican caucus meeting to choose their nominee for Speaker. Do such meetings usually occur in front of press and cameras?
Are internal party meetings really "fascist like"? I do not think that's the case at all!

And to go a little off topic of this particular post here, does anyone here think it is just a convenient coincidence that this attack by Hamas happened while our own House of Representatives is without an official leader? Which hamstrings US response?

No.
Unless the USA response was to bomb Gaza if Hamas farted.
You might be given the US a little too much credit when none is due.

Well, the opposite, actually. What I was trying to get at is do you think that Tuberville and his holding up of military promotions And Gaetz orchestrating the removal of the speaker of the house—seems like less like just a fortuitous coincidence and more like part of a plan.

I never subscribe to malice what stupidity can achieve. And your Houses of Parliament are very stupid over there it seems.

We do not have a house of parliament so that might contribute to your perception of it being ‘stupid.’

Malice? I think Gaetz in particular is not sufficiently a deep thinker to attribute malice or even conscious deliberate treason. Greed is sufficient in his case, including greed fir attention and teenagers for sex. Makes him easily exploitable.

 

[Toni]

I think that Trump has been and to a certain extent remains an asset for Putin and others.

Oh, please! At most he is a useful idiot. But then again, so are those on the left opposing pipelines and fracking, as that plays into the hands of Putin. Imagine how much easier time Putin would have pressuring western Europe had US cut 2/3 of our gas production and 1/2 of our oil production as Warren, Bernie, Harris, AOC et al wanted?
Europe was the main destination for U.S. LNG exports in 2022
What does this have to do with the war against genocidal maniacs running Gaza though?

It’s unwitting on Trump’s part. Most things are. Doesn’t make it less true.

It does. An asset is witting. A useful idiot is not.

Gaetz is simply a low rent Trump. The fact that Gaetz cannot look beyond the end of his own dick—all 2.5 inches of it—and what’s in his bank account would make him easier rather than more difficult to use. Unwittingly, of course.

Body shaming men with made-up claims about their genital anatomy? Really? I thought you were better than that, Toni. For shame!

I’m sorry their mothers didn’t love them or teach them right from wrong or keep them away from bad influences.

I still don't know what any of this post has to do with Gaza. Did you post it in the wrong thread?

Re: asset vs useful idiot—a distinction without a difference in this care. We are not talking about naive, well meaning people who are merely unaware of the depths of treachery that others will go to. We’re talking about people so stupid and so self centered they never consider anyone else at all.

The 2.5 inch deck I was referring to was entirely metaphorical. The only person who actually cares about his dick is him.

 

[steve_bank]

It has been reprted Israel has dropped about 6000 bombs, on a confined population. A densely populated refuge camp and a hospital were bombed.

No humanitarian aid, a death sentence for children.

This is something we would expect from WWI Nazis in occupier counties. A German gets killed, execute 100 civilians in retaliation.

At this point I gave as much regard for Israel as I do the tactics of Hamas, none. I used to try and look at both sides objectively, now I am moving off cemter on the side of Palestinians.

The Israeli military occupation of the West Bank continues.

We call out Putin for attacking civilians, Israel gets a pass. Putin has a militarily occupation in parts of Ukraine and we arm Ukraine. Palestinians are all terrorists with no cause to fight back.

It is the familiar USA foreign policy, morality is all situational and depends on our interests. Jews over here have polcal power and a strong lobby. Conservative Chrstians have gone from antisemitism to embracing Israel.

 

[Politesse]

Conservative Chrstians have gone from antisemitism to embracing Israel.

Oh, they still hate Jews, don't worry. This is about their End Times nonsense, not any sort of genuine love or respect for their parent tradition or the ethnic line that birthed their God. Well, maybe hate is not the right word, but they are incurious about them, and don't care whether Jews themselves are sufffering as long as a Jewish Israel is maintained long enough for the profane world to rip it to shreds and usher in Apocalypse. Hell of a reason to make political decisions that impact real people's lives.

 

[bilby]

For all their terrorist evil and the shitting they are doing on their own population, Hamas is still very popular on the Palestinian street.

That's because they hate Israel, and are prepared to express that hatred in violence.

It's a constant throughout history that public opinion favours people who are violent towards people who are mistreating that public.

If you want Palestinians to stop loving Hamas, and to stop loving terrorists who attack Israel and/or America, then you'll need Israel (and America) to be kind, supportive and generous towards Palestinians.

If Israel were building infrastructure in Gaza - roads, hospitals, schools, even mosques, then not only would it be harder for Hamas and their ilk to obtain popular support, it would also mean that Israel would have more control over the materials needed for building infrastructure, and make it harder for Hamas to divert those materials to belligerent purposes.

It's both impractical and unacceptable to kill everyone in Gaza who hates Israel. So if you want Gazans to love Israel, you're going to need Israel to kill them with kindness, rather than with bombs.

 

[bilby]

Hamas should be the enemy of all civilized people.

As should the current government of Israel.

Nobody should be killing children, and doing so should automatically make anyone the enemy of all civilised people.

Your carving out of an exception for the enemy of your enemy makes you a hypocrite. It's not "collateral damage", nor is it "unavoidable". Nobody is forced by circumstance to kill children.

 

[bilby]

Hamas must be destroyed just like German Nazi government had to be destroyed. Even if it meant bombing Dresden, Berlin and other German cities into rubble.

Do you genuinely believe that such bombing campaigns made defeating Germany easier??

Bombing cities makes civilians rally behind their governments, even when those governments are vile.

Churchill wasn't ousted by the British because of the Blitz, and had the Blitz done a hundred times the damage, it wouldn't have made his government less secure - quite the opposite.

Strategic bombing lengthened the war, and made Germans less willing to surrender.

 

[barbos]

Has anyone who claimed that Israel has nothing to do with Hamas creation watched this?

 

[Arctish]

I don't think Hamas has ever called for apartheid,

No, they have called for genocide.

and I know Fatah has explicitly rejected it.

Abbas has explicitly supported ethnic cleansing of Judea and Samaria.
Abbas wants 'not a single Israeli' in future Palestinian state

Abbas said no Israelis living in illegal settlements and no Israeli soldiers in the State of Palestine, not "no Jews".

I know that's a distinction Zionists like to obscure but it's an important one.

Abbas did not rule out some settlers remaining in the Palestinian State but he made it clear they would be under Palestinian authority, i.e. Palestinian citizens.

Also, Fatah has its own terrorist wing, the so-called "Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades".

Both organizations call for integration of some sort in a Two State division of land and resources, or equal rights and equal treatment in a single State.

Bullshit.

I can substantiate my claim. Will you read the links I provide, or just blow right past them and in a month or so, act like it's the first time you ever heard of such things?

Shall we start with the Right of Return for approx. 15,000 Palestinian refugees to their former communities in Israel and both sides legitimizing some of the settlements in the Occupied Territories, which would absolutely result in some degree of integration?

 

[steve_bank]

The Allies committed what today would be war crimes. Firebombing Japan and Germany.

Churchill first opposed then agreed.

Eisenhower authorized carpet bombing a way out of the beach head. Killed French civilians.

The British 'am buster' raid designed to bring down the dams on Ruhr River Valley flooding both industrial and civilian areas. Partially successful.

Nothing like the Japanese or Germans, but still questionable in light of our sensibilities today.

General Curtis LeMay who ran the bombing campaign on Japan post war said if the war had gone the other way he would have been trued for war crimes.

But that was then, not now. Israel's indiscriminate bombing campaign unrestrained by the outsde world may end the conflict, destruction of the people in Gaza.

Gaza has long been a ghetto. Entry and exit controlled by Israel. Restricted imports and exports. A sea blockade. That did not work.

The only option is utter distraction, which Israel said is the goal. No negotiations or cease fires. No humanitarian aid.

Based on reporting so far over here few in the media will oppose it. Some may celebrate it.

 

[steve_bank]

Has anyone who claimed that Israel has nothing to do with Hamas creation watched this?

Have not and am not going to watch it. Same with dead alien body dissection videos affectedly at Area 51.

 

[barbos]

Have not and am not going to watch it

I rest my case.

 

[steve_bank]

Have not and am not going to watch it

I rest my case.

Ну, коrо волнуе?

 

[Politesse]

And now an evacuation order for 1.1 million people. The forced displacement is likely to kill nearly as many people as the bombs, but it's always harder to tally up deaths from starvation, medical crises, etc, so it's a good way to mask your atrocities in a comforting cloak of ambiguity. Israel has clearly studied the US' war methodologies well. You can't just start firing if you're a democratic nation, it's got to carefully fought, simultaneously on the front and on the televisions at home.

 

[lpetrich]

Hamas must be destroyed just like German Nazi government had to be destroyed. Even if it meant bombing Dresden, Berlin and other German cities into rubble.

Do you genuinely believe that such bombing campaigns made defeating Germany easier??

I've seen a theory on why this bombing of cities had value, that it distracted the German Air Force from the eastern front, and later the western front. By trying to fight off British and US bombers, they could not do anything about the oncoming Soviet Army and later the Western-Allies armies.

But that was a very grisly strategy, I must concede.

 

[lpetrich]

Israel-Hamas war: Israel orders evacuation of 1.1 million people from Gaza | AP News

Israel’s military on Friday directed the evacuation of northern Gaza, a region that is home to 1.1 million people — about half of the territory’s population — within 24 hours, a U.N. spokesman said.

Is Israel preparing to send its army there?

The order, delivered to the U.N., comes as Israel presses an offensive against Hamas militants. U.N. spokesman Stéphane Dujarric called the order “impossible” without “devastating humanitarian consequences.”

...
“Not a single electricity switch will be flipped on, not a single faucet will be turned on and not a single fuel truck will enter until the Israeli hostages are returned home,” Israeli Energy Minister Israel Katz said on social media.

...
Hamas’ assault Saturday and smaller attacks since have killed more than 1,300 people in Israel, including 247 soldiers — a toll unseen in Israel for decades — and the ensuing Israeli bombardment has killed more than 1,530 people in Gaza, according to authorities on both sides. Israel says roughly 1,500 Hamas militants were killed inside Israel, and that hundreds of the dead in Gaza are Hamas members. Thousands have been wounded on both sides.