Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[bilby]

Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields, in order to manipulate an outrage against Israel if they retaliated after the 7/10 attack.

Yup. And it's working pretty well.

Which is a collective failure of the West. We clearly have lost our progressive values

If you have a working moral compas it should make you want Israel to hurry the fuck up to depose Hamas.

If you are a moral degenerate, you might want Israel to stop, in order to help save the Hamas regime.

This applies only if we accept the unwritten premise that what Israel is doing is the kind of thing that might result in deposing Hamas.

Israel needs to control all of Gaza. When they do that Hamas will be neutered.

Sure. Totalitarianism and the crushing of dissent is always completely effective, and never leads to resistance, terrorism, and revolt.

A two state solution is not going to happen. The 7/10 saw to that.

The two state solution has certainly been made more difficult to achieve. A one state solution was always, and remains, a complete fantasy that could only even hypothetically be achieved by a total genocide.

Hamas built Gaza into a fortress and a death trap. That only means Isreal's progress is slowed down. There's still progress

Towards what? An occupation in which the IDF suffers sabotage, terrorism and murder against its forces? How is that an improvement?

Wars, typically, are slow.

Fast, slow, intermediate - it's utterly irrelevant to my argument. Wars of occupation are unwinable. Even 'victory' doesn't achieve a long term peace.

Artillery and bombardment flatten the region where there's opposition. Only when the enemy stops shooting back do ground troops go in.

Sounds like a doctrine proven to be utterly false at the Somme.

Every army avoids urban combat if possible.

In Gaza, it was never possible.

if think you might have seen too many action movies.

I think you are the one who introduced this sub-topic of military doctrine, that has nothing to do with anything I said.

I am saying that war cannot work, not that I don't think it's being done fast enough, or well enough.

Reality is different

It's certainly very different from whatever the fuck you are thinking.

That premise is false; You can't stop people from hating you, and therefore from supporting your stated enemies, by dropping bombs on their families.

This is an old leftist trope. Sprung from Marxist studies in the 70'ies. Which in turn came as a result of trying to explain why our colonial empires fell apart.

I note that you haven't so much as actually suggested here that it isn't true.

They didn't fall apart because the natives hated us. They fell apart because they were corrupt and dysfunctional. The post colonial dictatorships were only copies of the western government's before it. We just weren't honest with ourselves on how the colonies were run. Which is why it was such a mystery to us when they collapsed. It wasn’t because we'd failed the popularity contest.

That's lovely. Are you planning to come back to the point, or are you hoping that going off on this irrelevant tangent will make everyone forget what we were talking about?

If people are safe and prosperous they don't care about freedom. Hamas bought Palestinian loyalty in Gaza with Iranian money.

Yup.

Now the Palestinians have learned the true price of taking that bribe, so won't do that again.

Palestinians have learned that the IDF kills their children, and that Hamas fights back.

That's a very narrow and incomplete picture, but it's very simple, and very easy to sell.

Hamas is being made more popular as a consequence of Bibi's actions.

But it's a fascist regime, and needs to be removed like any fascist regime.

Indeed. And starting that process by making the regime hugely popular is massively counterproductive.

Through a process we call de-radicalisation.

Which can only start when the bombing stops.

Its been tried and tested many times it'll work in Gaza to.

If we ever get around to trying it.

I do want Hamas to be deposed, quick smart. That's one reason why I think the IDF should stop. Not to save the Hamas regime, but to discontinue their bolstering of it.

So what's your genius plan for that to happen?

I bolded it for the hard-of-reading

Let me guess, it's unrealistic and a complete fantasy?

Let me guess, your preferences are the only ideas that are ever practical, and disagreement with you always stems, not from you being mistaken, but from others being unrealistic.

Your simpleton's take on all this is very popular, and very wrong; And by pushing it, you are indeed acting as a total fucking tool.

A tool of what? Who' s manipulating me?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So is the argument that Doctors Without Borders is some sort of far left, antisemitic organization? If so, that's absurd. They're doctors, not politicians. They are funded by public donations. Why would they be telling lies about the situation on the ground, how could that possibly benefit themselves or their mission? I can't think of any. L Whereas Israel has every reason to try and convince us that every nurse they murder in cold blood was Hamas in disguise. And that all the child killings are fake news.

The point is the casualties they saw skew considerably differently than the numbers they report.

And the point of showing the guy in uniform is to show the supposed innocent they were objecting to being killed was a combatant. If they didn't know it's because they were willfully blind. I'm showing a lack of credibility.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Geezussss. So much bullshit in five tiny paragraphs.

You do know USAID was disbanded several months ago, right?

Ok. Now its called GHF. Same thing. Israel is still distributing aid, and doing the best they can while keeping Hamas away from being able to control it

Not remotely the same thing.

USAID was part of the problem--as normal, the aid gets controlled by the local oppressors. The UN is still providing aid that basically all goes to Hamas. The GHF is not part of USAID, it's actually bypassing the local oppressors and so Hamas is going bonkers over it.

Ok, thanks. I looked it up now. I meant GHF all the time. USAID was, as you say, part of the problem and had their aid distributed via UNRWA, which means Hamas.

It's good GHF distributes all the aid. It's a bit weird in this conflict where the UN has sided with a fascist organisation and letting them distribute their aid, in a situation where the Hamas leaders are litteral billionairs, and who's entire fortune comes from embezzled foreign aid.

The UN aid isn't blocked, it's just losing it's power when people can get food from the GHF. But now that the UN has been shamed over leaving the stuff at the border we get the crazy situation where the intercept rate exceeds 100%. (The extra coming from what had been left sitting.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So is the argument that Doctors Without Borders is some sort of far left, antisemitic organization? If so, that's absurd. They're doctors, not politicians. They are funded by public donations. Why would they be telling lies about the situation on the ground, how could that possibly benefit themselves or their mission? I can't think of any. L Whereas Israel has every reason to try and convince us that every nurse they murder in cold blood was Hamas in disguise. And that all the child killings are fake news.

The doctors without borders are doctors and have therefore signed the hipocratic oath. A ceasefire now would, quite correctly, lead to less death and less problems in the immediate future. Doctors without borders does not get involved in politics. They're a one trick pony. Which is why they're allowed access into situations where the rulers might be... let's say a bloodthirsty islamofascist regime. They have to say this. Long term, Israel backing off would of course, be a catastrophe, for everyone involved, including the Palestinianians.

Hamas uses hospitals and military bases. Their fighters dress as civilians. Of course this will lead to doctors and nurses accidentaly getting shot. Probably often.

I posted a picture of one of their people in Hamas uniform. But even when Israel posts these smoking guns people still believe Hamas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That is laughable. I am not a "tool for Hamas". You're working for them directly, by supporting the exact political actions they intended to provoke from The West. They wrote a part for your country in their score, and you're singing it like a bird. You're being played for a fool by very evil men, and you're enjoying it.

You're the one who is doing exactly what they want. Namely, trying to stop Israel from smashing them on the battlefield.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields, in order to manipulate an outrage against Israel if they retaliated after the 7/10 attack.

Yup. And it's working pretty well.

Yeah, they're playing you.

If you have a working moral compas it should make you want Israel to hurry the fuck up to depose Hamas.

If you are a moral degenerate, you might want Israel to stop, in order to help save the Hamas regime.

This applies only if we accept the unwritten premise that what Israel is doing is the kind of thing that might result in deposing Hamas.

That premise is false; You can't stop people from hating you, and therefore from supporting your stated enemies, by dropping bombs on their families.

I do want Hamas to be deposed, quick smart. That's one reason why I think the IDF should stop. Not to save the Hamas regime, but to discontinue their bolstering of it.

Your simpleton's take on all this is very popular, and very wrong; And by pushing it, you are indeed acting as a total fucking tool.

But you are using underwear gnome logic here. Why would Israel stopping harm Hamas? It's Iran that bolsters Hamas, you like to pretend it's Israel's actions but it's not Israel's actions in all the other places Iran is doing the same thing so why should we think it's Israel's actions in this case?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How do you mean? Hamas fighters are able to move within an ever decreasing area. Israel is moving slowly and methodically. The IDF will just keep taking over new areas of Gaza until Hamas capitulates. If they don't Israel will eventually take over all of it, and that will be the end of Hamas.

But already now Hamas is barely able to operate. All they can do is terrorise the Gazan civilians.

Unfortunately Israel isn't actually able to control the territory it takes. They sweep through removing as many terrorists and their infrastructure as they can, but the terrorists keep slipping back in. Think of that hospital they just had an oops on--they've taken the same hospital multiple times. They were shooting at a legitimate target but someone goofed and used tank guns to do the job when it should have been smaller and more precise.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Take me through your logic of how I am helping "them"? And who is "them".

Hamas and the hardliners in the Israeli government, directly. Crazed jihadis and right wing militarists, globally. Everyone who wants to drown this planet in blood just to rehash ancient grievances and make a few old men wealthier than they already are selling arms and humanitarian aid to whoever will pay.

It takes two to make peace but only one to make war. And that one is Iran.

Its not genocide. Calling it genocide is just good ole' antisemitism imho. If you can't see that then I will just think you are too blinded by racist hate against Jews to be able to think clearly about it. That’s what it looks like to me.

No, I am not. Actually, the Jewish people know better than anyone what the consequences look like when the world turns a blind eye to genocide. You are a fine one to talk to me about racism, while you beg me to see the death of an Israeli child as a tragedy, and the death of Palestinian child as a perfectly justifiable oopsie.

Calling it genocide doesn't make it so. The death of any number of combatants is not genocide. And Israel is doing better than typical for western powers in avoiding civilian casualties despite facing an enemy which is trying to maximize them.

And it's not that we don't care about the death of Palestinian children, it's that we recognize that getting Palestinian children killed is about the biggest weapon Hamas has. The more you care about dead Palestinian children the more dead Palestinian children there will be.

 

[Politesse]

It takes two to make peace but only one to make war. And that one is Iran.

Whom Israel also bombed recently, and fought a twelve day war with, killing a thousand people, half of them civilians, and only stopped the slaughter because Donald J. Trump (peace-maker extraordinaire?) threatened to pull them off the munitions teat if they didn't fucking knock it off. Doing a real great job avoiding that war, there.

Calling it genocide doesn't make it so. The death of any number of combatants is not genocide.

No, the attempt to exterminate a people is genocide.

 

[Politesse]

 

[bilby]

Why would Israel stopping harm Hamas?

Because NOT stopping clearly BENEFITS Hamas.

Duh.

 

[bilby]

It's Iran that bolsters Hamas,

Yes. But far from exclusively. Why would you imagine that the situation is so black and white that ONLY one player could advantage Hamas?

you like to pretend it's Israel's actions

No, I merely observe that it is. No pretence is needed.

but it's not Israel's actions in all the other places Iran is doing the same thing

So fucking what? Hamas recruitment is up due to IDF actions. It's ALSO up due to Iranian actions. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Iran wants everyone to hate America and Israel. This fact doesn't strike me as a good reason to help them to make their case, by getting America and Israel to drop bombs on people.

so why should we think it's Israel's actions in this case?

Because it fucking IS. Bombing people makes them hate you. It worked for the Germans bombing the UK in both world wars; It worked for the RAF and USAAF bombing Germany in WWII.

It works everywhere - if you drop bombs on people's homes and kill their families, they will HATE you.

This shouldn't be so hard to comprehend.

 

[bilby]

Unfortunately Israel isn't actually able to control the territory it takes. They sweep through removing as many terrorists and their infrastructure as they can, but the terrorists keep slipping back in.

Yup. The entire strategy is deeply flawed; It cannot succeed in eliminating hatred for Israel, and indeed has exactly the opposite result.

If at first you don't succeed, try something else.

 

[DrZoidberg]

How do you mean? Hamas fighters are able to move within an ever decreasing area. Israel is moving slowly and methodically. The IDF will just keep taking over new areas of Gaza until Hamas capitulates. If they don't Israel will eventually take over all of it, and that will be the end of Hamas.

But already now Hamas is barely able to operate. All they can do is terrorise the Gazan civilians.

Unfortunately Israel isn't actually able to control the territory it takes. They sweep through removing as many terrorists and their infrastructure as they can, but the terrorists keep slipping back in. Think of that hospital they just had an oops on--they've taken the same hospital multiple times. They were shooting at a legitimate target but someone goofed and used tank guns to do the job when it should have been smaller and more precise.

This is the inevitable result of not trying to murder every Palestinian. Since Hamas fighters dress like civilians, and there's nowhere for civilians to go, it makes it virtually impossible to permanently secure territory.

What Israel can control is transport in and out of Gaza. I think that's their plan. I think they're bleeding Hamas dry of weapons and ammunition. Rather than trying to kill them all.

But that's pure speculation.

 

[Tigers!]

Unfortunately Israel isn't actually able to control the territory it takes. They sweep through removing as many terrorists and their infrastructure as they can, but the terrorists keep slipping back in.

Yup. The entire strategy is deeply flawed; It cannot succeed in eliminating hatred for Israel, and indeed has exactly the opposite result.

If at first you don't succeed, try something else.

I do suppose Isreal could have pretending that Oct 7th never happened. That is trying something else.

 

[Tigers!]

Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields, in order to manipulate an outrage against Israel if they retaliated after the 7/10 attack.

Yup. And it's working pretty well.

Which is a collective failure of the West. We clearly have lost our progressive values

If you have a working moral compas it should make you want Israel to hurry the fuck up to depose Hamas.

If you are a moral degenerate, you might want Israel to stop, in order to help save the Hamas regime.

This applies only if we accept the unwritten premise that what Israel is doing is the kind of thing that might result in deposing Hamas.

Israel needs to control all of Gaza. When they do that Hamas will be neutered.

Sure. Totalitarianism and the crushing of dissent is always completely effective, and never leads to resistance, terrorism, and revolt.

A two state solution is not going to happen. The 7/10 saw to that.

The two state solution has certainly been made more difficult to achieve. A one state solution was always, and remains, a complete fantasy that could only even hypothetically be achieved by a total genocide.

Hamas built Gaza into a fortress and a death trap. That only means Isreal's progress is slowed down. There's still progress

Towards what? An occupation in which the IDF suffers sabotage, terrorism and murder against its forces? How is that an improvement?

Sadly just a continuation of the status quo. Greater tempo but still a continuation of pre-Oct 7th

Wars, typically, are slow.

Fast, slow, intermediate - it's utterly irrelevant to my argument. Wars of occupation are unwinable. Even 'victory' doesn't achieve a long term peace.

We have had 80 years of peace in Europe and Japan (I will not say Asia) since the Allies bombed the hell out of Germany and Japan and occupied their terriority. Wars of occupation can win. Rarely, granted, but not unknown.

Now the Palestinians have learned the true price of taking that bribe, so won't do that again.

Palestinians have learned that the IDF kills their children, and that Hamas fights back.

The Israelis have been reminded that Hamas wishes their destruction and the IDF will try very hard to protect them.

 

[DrZoidberg]

If you have a working moral compas it should make you want Israel to hurry the fuck up to depose Hamas.

If you are a moral degenerate, you might want Israel to stop, in order to help save the Hamas regime.

This applies only if we accept the unwritten premise that what Israel is doing is the kind of thing that might result in deposing Hamas.

Israel needs to control all of Gaza. When they do that Hamas will be neutered.

Sure. Totalitarianism and the crushing of dissent is always completely effective, and never leads to resistance, terrorism, and revolt.

Ehe. What? Israel is litterally trying to remove a totalitarian regime.

You are so confused as to what is going on.

A two state solution is not going to happen. The 7/10 saw to that.

The two state solution has certainly been made more difficult to achieve. A one state solution was always, and remains, a complete fantasy that could only even hypothetically be achieved by a total genocide.

That's a false dichotomy. I don't know why you are trying to twist the narrative like this?

Hamas built Gaza into a fortress and a death trap. That only means Isreal's progress is slowed down. There's still progress

Towards what? An occupation in which the IDF suffers sabotage, terrorism and murder against its forces? How is that an improvement?

Hamas not being free to attack Israel at will?

I think everyone in the region thinks that's an improvement. Apart from Islamic fanatics and antisemites

Wars, typically, are slow.

Fast, slow, intermediate - it's utterly irrelevant to my argument. Wars of occupation are unwinable. Even 'victory' doesn't achieve a long term peace.

Israel's primary goal is to be safe. I think you have misunderstood what Israel is trying to do. This is not a war of conquest. If Hamas is unable to attack Israel at will, that will be considered a win for Israel.

Artillery and bombardment flatten the region where there's opposition. Only when the enemy stops shooting back do ground troops go in.

Sounds like a doctrine proven to be utterly false at the Somme.

Ha ha. Read more please

Every army avoids urban combat if possible.

In Gaza, it was never possible.

They're doing it. So I guess you were wrong

if think you might have seen too many action movies.

I think you are the one who introduced this sub-topic of military doctrine, that has nothing to do with anything I said.

I am saying that war cannot work, not that I don't think it's being done fast enough, or well enough.

You are the one who have accused Israel of genocide. You misunderstand how wars are fought and use that to try to make Israel look bad. Its relevant

Now the Palestinians have learned the true price of taking that bribe, so won't do that again.

Palestinians have learned that the IDF kills their children, and that Hamas fights back.

That's a very narrow and incomplete picture, but it's very simple, and very easy to sell.

Hamas is being made more popular as a consequence of Bibi's actions.

I think you are wrong.

Palestinians have been sold the lie that Hamas fights for them. Now they know that Iran is not their friend.

I doubt Hamas is more popular. It always was a horrific regime. Palestinians are not stupid. They know that. All the trinkets Hamas bought them over the years is worthless if it leads to suffering and destruction. I don't think Palestinians think its worth it anymore.

But it's a fascist regime, and needs to be removed like any fascist regime.

Indeed. And starting that process by making the regime hugely popular is massively counterproductive.

That's exactly what happened in Germany, Japan and Iraq. Well done.

You have an absurdly simplistic way to look at this conflict

Through a process we call de-radicalisation.

Which can only start when the bombing stops.

Which will happen when Hamas is crushed

Its been tried and tested many times it'll work in Gaza to.

If we ever get around to trying it.

I do want Hamas to be deposed, quick smart. That's one reason why I think the IDF should stop. Not to save the Hamas regime, but to discontinue their bolstering of it.

So what's your genius plan for that to happen?

I bolded it for the hard-of-reading

Ha ha. Let's all be grateful you're not in charge.

Let me guess, it's unrealistic and a complete fantasy?

Let me guess, your preferences are the only ideas that are ever practical, and disagreement with you always stems, not from you being mistaken, but from others being unrealistic.

Yes, obviously. That's what it means to have an opinion.

Your simpleton's take on all this is very popular, and very wrong; And by pushing it, you are indeed acting as a total fucking tool.

A tool of what? Who' s manipulating me?

No, answer. What a surprise. I don't think there's any thinking going on in your head. My theory

 

[ZiprHead]

You misunderstand how wars are fought and use that to try to make Israel look bad.

How many wars have you fought in? What were your sources that make you believe your perspective is better than others?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Israel mulls West Bank annexation
"Mulls". Mulls, my bleedin' ass. Gaza, chunks of Syria. Why not the West Bank too. Might as well go now. Everyone who isn't as warmongering as Netanyahu & Co already hates you about as much as they can.
I trust these measures will make Israel safer. Not hardly.

 

[laughing dog]

Unfortunately Israel isn't actually able to control the territory it takes. They sweep through removing as many terrorists and their infrastructure as they can, but the terrorists keep slipping back in.

Yup. The entire strategy is deeply flawed; It cannot succeed in eliminating hatred for Israel, and indeed has exactly the opposite result.

If at first you don't succeed, try something else.

I do suppose Isreal could have pretending that Oct 7th never happened. That is trying something else.

Since your response ignores the condition of “if at first”, you should try something else, possibly on point.