Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Copernicus]

Hamas is committing war crimes by placing their militant infrastructure inside or underneath civilian infrastructure. How do you propose to get to Hamas otherwise?

WATCH: IDF provides proof of Hamas rockets launched near schools, mosque

Watching the video and looking at the pictures, I did not see any rocket launchers. I saw little red squares that the IDF said were launcher sites. Fair enough. I have no reason to doubt that the IDF is telling the truth and that Hamas terrorists are using those sites as a way of giving pause to the IDF before it attempts to take out their launcher with a missile. It is a fact that the Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated ethnic ghettoes in the world and that terrorists aren't particularly concerned about protecting the lives of innocent people. Blowing up a school is a war crime, so that is also helpful propaganda for their cause. In fact, many of the launchers are from the backs of trucks, so they can be moved away quickly after a launch.

What should Israel do about it? For the most part, these rockets are being stopped by Iron Dome, although not all of them can be. They don't do widespread damage in Israel, but they do terrify the population. I don't think that there is an easy, quick solution, because blowing up a large area where a missile launcher may or may not still be present is going to cause a lot of deaths of innocent people, and the IDF needs to refrain from killing large numbers of innocent people just to take out a single rocket launcher. So the solution needs to be proportionate to the danger posed by that launcher and the likelihood of actually destroying it with a missile strike.

I have no military experience, so I am not the best person to advise on how to solve the problem, but the US did fight this kind of urban warfare in Iraq. The solution there, as I understand it, did not involve the use of missiles fired into densely populated areas. Aerial attacks were done with drones and helicopters that could take out the targets without necessarily destroying the surrounding neighborhood, and they also used a lot of ground operations. Israel may not have the same capability, and, unlike with US troops, its home territory is under attack. Still, it seems to me that Israel prefers to use sledgehammers to kill flies rather than fly swatters, and they justify it by simply failing to acknowledge the difference between innocent civilians and Hamas terrorists.

The US has killed a lot of innocent civilians in its wars, but it does have a record of at least trying to show some respect for distinguishing civilians from combatants. When US troops began a massacre of the civilian population of My Lai during the Vietnam War, they committed unthinkable atrocities that amounted to a genocidal attack on that village. Still, it was other US troops--a helicopter crew--that stopped the massacre and helped the civilian survivors. The US government made a show of trying to bring the people responsible for the massacre to justice and failed miserably at that. However, the Vietnamese government still memorializes those Americans who came to the aid of the victims, and the ones who stopped the violence were the heroes, not those who started it.

 

[Derec]

What is your obsession with Nazi Germany?

I see parallels to Hamas. And just like the Nazi government had to be destroyed, Hamas must be too. A ceasefire in 1942 would have been a bad idea.

Why would you think they are faster learners than the leaders of Israel and their cheerleaders?

Israel does not support terrorism.

 

[laughing dog]

What is your obsession with Nazi Germany?

I see parallels to Hamas. And just like the Nazi government had to be destroyed, Hamas must be too. A ceasefire in 1942 would have been a bad idea.

Nazi German was a sovereign nation. Hamas is not. The world is a lot different than it was on 1940.

Why would you think they are faster learners than the leaders of Israel and their cheerleaders?

Israel does not support terrorism.

Israel enables and protects settler violence against Palestinians (terrorism). The destruction of civilian homes and the killing of civilians by the IDF (terrorism).

So, of course Israel supports terrorism. It is just that when Israel does it, neither its gov't or its cheerleaders wish to acknowledge those actions as terrorism. They make up euphemisms like "human shields" to disguise their barbarity.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Semantics. We may wish Hamas did not exist, violent Israeli extremists, too, but we may not WANT the cost to get there including tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands dead, to achieve that end.

It is not semantics. Outcomes are very different between destroying Hamas and leaving them in power to attack Israel again.

Killing most of the hostages and tens of thousands of innocent civilians while creating a future generation of radicals is a bad idea. That seems to be what you advocate.

 

[Jarhyn]

Semantics. We may wish Hamas did not exist, violent Israeli extremists, too, but we may not WANT the cost to get there including tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands dead, to achieve that end.

It is not semantics. Outcomes are very different between destroying Hamas and leaving them in power to attack Israel again.

Killing most of the hostages and tens of thousands of innocent civilians while creating a future generation of radicals is a bad idea. That seems to be what you advocate.

I mean it's exactly what Israel wants to happen. They don't care about the hostages, and want radicals among their target of genocide as Casus Belli to further genocide, because they want that land.

 

[Copernicus]

Israel does not support terrorism.

Do you actually believe that the Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip has not been terrified by Israeli bomb strikes and the cutoff of food, water, power, and medical supplies?

 

[Derec]

Do you actually believe that the Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip has not been terrified by Israeli bomb strikes and the cutoff of food, water, power, and medical supplies?

That's not terrorism. That's war.
Yes, war is hell. But let's not lose track of who started this war, or how.

 

[Derec]

Killing most of the hostages and tens of thousands of innocent civilians while creating a future generation of radicals is a bad idea. That seems to be what you advocate.

It sucks about hostages. But Israel has offered a humanitarian pause in fighting in return for hostages. Hamas refuses. They want >5k Palestinian terrorists to be freed . The Shalit deal where >1k terrorists were freed was horrible, and Israel is not going to make that mistake again.
Many of the freed terrorists in 2011 committed further terrorist attacks. Some participated in 10/7, including Yahya Sinwar, a senior Hamas leader in Gaza.

Again, what do you think Israel should do? What would be your plan if you were the prime minister of Israel? Would you not respond to the 10/7 massacre at all? Or what would you do?

 

[laughing dog]

Do you actually believe that the Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip has not been terrified by Israeli bomb strikes and the cutoff of food, water, power, and medical supplies?

That's not terrorism. That's war.
Yes, war is hell. But let's not lose track of who started this war, or how.

You cannot have it both ways. If Hamas started the war, then it was no more terrorism than what Israel does in the name of war.

Moreover, you appear to be saying that since Israel is the victim, it has carte blanche - a truly ridiculous position.

 

[bilby]

I don’t understand the point of finding individual instances of “indirect” advocation of violence or direct advocation of violence because I am unaware of any denial of the existence of such individuals.

The point is that it gives people license to be enraged.

People love to be angry, and they love to be outraged; The vast majority of what masquerades as "the news media" today is devoted to supplying that desire to have something to be enraged about.

Most of the current problems in the world are due to people not feeling embarrassed or ashamed about becoming angry, when manipulated into that state by paid experts.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

.

Again, what do you think Israel should do? What would be your plan if you were the prime minister of Israel? Would you not respond to the 10/7 massacre at all? Or what would you do?

Well, obviously, I'd

1. Turn everyone's water off
2. Tell everyone to flee south and then bomb the south
3. Tell people to go to Egypt and then bomb the crossing to Egypt
4. Bomb a refugee camp and multiple hospitals
5. Kill 10,000 people, mostly civilians
6. Bomb the tunnels where the hostages are

On the other hand, maybe Israel could reduce some of these things. We should consider that for a moment. Hmmm... naw, fuck it. Israel should also send a nuke to Gaza.

Yeehah!!

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Note the quote from tweet in the linked article:
"It is clear to all sensible people that the statement about the atom is metaphorical. However, a strong and disproportionate response to terrorism is definitely required, which will clarify to the Nazis and their supporters that terrorism is not worthwhile. This is the only formula that democratic states can use to deal with terrorism. At the same time, it is clear that the State of Israel is committed to doing everything possible to return the hostages safe and sound."

Emphasis added.

 

[Tigers!]

.

Again, what do you think Israel should do? What would be your plan if you were the prime minister of Israel? Would you not respond to the 10/7 massacre at all? Or what would you do?

Well, obviously, I'd

1. Turn everyone's water off
2. Tell everyone to flee south and then bomb the south
3. Tell people to go to Egypt and then bomb the crossing to Egypt
4. Bomb a refugee camp and multiple hospitals
5. Kill 10,000 people, mostly civilians
6. Bomb the tunnels where the hostages are

On the other hand, maybe Israel could reduce some of these things. We should consider that for a moment. Hmmm... naw, fuck it. Israel should also send a nuke to Gaza.

Yeehah!!

What could Israel do in response to 7/10 that you would approve? You tell us what they shouldn't do. How about telling us Israel could do that would be acceptable to you?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, Israel caused the Fatah/Hamas civil war. Since it wasn't paraded before the world press there was no reason for human shields. Nor was it conducted with heavy weapons. Thus it was quite good at killing combatants and sparing innocents.

The terror would happen anyway as it's determined by the money and weapons being provided, not by the name of the group that gets the stuff. It goes to whoever will cause the most trouble with it, the name is irrelevant.

How glibly you slide over reality to defend your biases. Without Israel’s support, it is debatable whether Hamas would have been as successful and that Gaza would have abandoned by Israel.

The notion that the outcome is identical regardless of the actors is lunacy. Is everything alright?

The actors: Israel, Iran. They're the same in all cases.

What the organization that takes Iranian money and weapons and uses them to attack Israel is called varies between scenarios but is of little importance.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Until Hamas identifies them and kills them. Hamas would regard an independent reporter as a spy.

Bullshit. Please stop confusing your uninformed and biased opinions as fact. I suspect that the gov’t of Israel has killed more journalists than Hamas over the years prior to this hostility.

Why would Hamas kill reporters? Reporters are smart enough to know that when the guys with guns tell you to report A but not report B that your report is "A". The threat of the guns is enough to get what they want.

 

[laughing dog]

Yeah, Israel caused the Fatah/Hamas civil war. Since it wasn't paraded before the world press there was no reason for human shields. Nor was it conducted with heavy weapons. Thus it was quite good at killing combatants and sparing innocents.

The terror would happen anyway as it's determined by the money and weapons being provided, not by the name of the group that gets the stuff. It goes to whoever will cause the most trouble with it, the name is irrelevant.

How glibly you slide over reality to defend your biases. Without Israel’s support, it is debatable whether Hamas would have been as successful and that Gaza would have abandoned by Israel.

The notion that the outcome is identical regardless of the actors is lunacy. Is everything alright?

The actors: Israel, Iran. They're the same in all cases.

What the organization that takes Iranian money and weapons and uses them to attack Israel is called varies between scenarios but is of little importance.

History is decided by people not money. People are not identical - even terrorists. So your response is based on an obviously false view of human behavior.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why are we talking about evacuating all of Israel when the obvious next step is Israel recognizing the 1967 borders and pulling its citizens out of the illegal settlements they built?

Bilby explicitly called for the ethnic cleansing of Israel.

And your post about Hamas was "peace" for 67 borders and right of return--which is just another way of bringing about the same thing. You apparently don't realize you're also asking for the ethnic cleansing of Israel.

No, I'm not calling for the ethnic cleansing of anywhere. But I realize that's how you see it.

Over and over on this discussion board and its predecessors you have expressed your belief that some religious or ethnic group must be "dead or fled" before there can be peace. You have made it very clear that you believe Israel should and would incinerate millions of people in a nuclear firestorm rather than allow even a few thousand of them return to their former homes. You believe genocide is a likely outcome because that's what you would do if you were in charge of coming up with a 'solution' to the problems inherent in the creation of a religious ethno-state in a place where more than one religion is practiced, and more than one ethnic ancestry is found among the citizenry.

Right of return isn't about a few thousand. It is about enough to outvote the Jews. You pretend few would move but that's not what would happen.

Israel is going to have to accept borders at some point. Why not accept the ones the international community and the Palestinians have accepted? It's pretty fucking generous of the Palestinians to even entertain the idea of allowing the theft of their land and resources to become permanent. So why doesn't Israel accept that generous offer?

Because they know it won't change anything. The borders you are asking them to accept are the same as they were from 1948 to 1967--and Israel was under attack then, also. As for why Israel shouldn't--it did exactly what you're asking for with Gaza and as always peaceful gestures make things worse.

As for what would happen from your proposal, let's ask Hamas:

Take them at their word - JNS.org

From Hamas to Iran to Turkey, when our enemies tell us what they're going to do, we need to listen.

www.jns.org

(Argh, board bug. That really reads: "Ghazi Hamad, Hamas spokesman")
Hamad was quite clear on the motivation for his envisioned million more murder sprees: “The existence of Israel is what causes all that pain, blood and tears.”

Note: existence. Not actions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So you support ethnic cleansing.

So you support insulting people based on stupid inferences.

Stupid inferences? You specifically said that the Jews should leave. How can you deny that's ethnic cleansing?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I care far more about the side that didn't choose war than the side that chose war crimes.

Both sides chose war.

Both sides are choosing war crimes.

Both sides chose war? No, Israel chose to not sit there and be slaughtered.

And I have yet to see a valid claim of an Israeli war crime in this fighting. There are numerous allegations of "war crimes" but the evidence isn't there--it is not a war crime to bomb a military target hidden in a civilian area.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are doing exactly what the Israelis did when the possibility of a peaceful resolution came along - they kept asking for more, and more, and more.

As I said earlier in this thread, Israel apologists used to say Israel would be happy to make peace if only the Palestinians would recognize Israel's Right to Exist. The PA did that.

Exist with the right of return--in other words, not exist.

So what if Hamas holds out on official recognition of Israel's government for now?

I remind you of 1400 dead Israelis on 7th Oct. That is a rather large so what.

Do you think that attack would not have happened if Hamas officially recognized the government of the State of Israel?

More importantly, do you think Israel's failure to establish or recognize borders might have something to do with the ongoing bloodshed?

I do.

Look upthread. They have admitted what's driving them: the existence of Israel.

Official recognition of Israel's government by Hamas can wait. It already has official recognition from the PA, so what's the hold up with recognizing the 1967 borders on that side?

Wait for what, the second coming?

Trust can come later.

Trust must be earned. I would not trust Hamas about anything except their stated desire to kill Jews.

Yes, indeed. Trust must be earned.

And the Palestinians don't do any earning.

Israel abandoning the Oslo Accords damaged what trust existed at the time the Accords were signed. Israel promoting a man who claimed to have deliberately sabotaged the Oslo Accords to the position of Prime Minister destroyed what little trust remained.

Israel abandoned them after Palestine abandoned them.

Israel learned not to make frontloaded agreements with people who don't consider agreements with non-Muslims binding.

It's time for Israel to prove itself as a trustworthy partner in the peace process. IMO the easiest way to do that is to reward the peacemakers by recognizing the 1967 borders and relocating its citizens back inside them, unless those folks want to be citizens of the State of Palestine. The rest of the negotiations, about air space, communications, developing resources, distribution of water from Palestinian aquifers, etc. , can follow from that.

The easiest place to find your keys is under the streetlight.