Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[steve_bank]

DR Z

If you do not understand Zionism you do not understand modern Israel.

Zionism is the Jewish belief that after 2000 years Jews today have a divine right based in the bible to the land that was Israel at the time of the Roman occupation.

Netanyahu has voiced it publicly. Over here we call it biblical litteralism whee referring to Christians.

For many decades Palestinians have been forced from their land and homes to make way for Jewish colonization. Do Jews have a right to do that? A simple yes or no answer.

It has nothing to do with terrorism, it has to do with Zionism.

You can make all the usual apologetics for Israel, the fact is it is a genocide at this point.

Israel is intentionally destroying and leveling Gaza. Schools, hospitals, homes, business. If the war stopped today the means to raise kids and rebuild the population is gone.

Israel won the war against Arab coalitions. It is about what Israel has done since then.

Today it has nothing to do with Arabs. Jordan and Egypt made peace with Israel, Netanyahu opposed the peace. There is evidence that Netiquette know of the assassination plot and did birthing.

Yigal Amir, a right-wing Jewish extremist, assassinated Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin on November 4, 1995
. Amir opposed Rabin's peace efforts with the Palestinians, specifically the Oslo Accords, which he believed endangered Israeli security.

Though not directly involved, Benjamin Netanyahu, then leader of the opposition Likud party, is linked to the 1995 assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin through a political atmosphere of intense and inflammatory anti-Rabin rhetoric
. Right-wing extremists vehemently opposed the Oslo Accords, a peace initiative with the Palestinians, which Rabin championed.

Given the history of Netanyahu and who he is the Gaza war and genocide are obvious.

He is the Israeli version of our extreme conservative Christians.

 

[DrZoidberg]

DR Z

If you do not understand Zionism you do not understand modern Israel.

Zionism is the Jewish belief that after 2000 years Jews today have a divine right based in the bible to the land that was Israel at the time of the Roman occupation.

No, its not. It's just not.

Stop talking about things you don't understand

Zionism is a movement by secular and overwhelmingly atheist and socialist Jews to get away from religious European people. Because of antisemitism, which was starting to get real bad in the 19'th century. That’s why they first planned to settle in Uganda. Because that was, at the time, a more realistic plan, than smack bang in the centre of the Ottoman empire

The reason it ultimately became Palestine is because of the British empire giving the land to the Jews. They were not going to say no to it.

Netanyahu has voiced it publicly. Over here we call it biblical litteralism whee referring to Christians.

Sure. Its a new trend in Israel.

Israel started out as a socialist and highly secular country. Jews have a very high degree of atheists. The European settlers in Israel were sick of all religion to a high degree.

American Evangelical Christian money has been raining on Israel for decades. This has shifted to culture towards religious conservatism.

For example, students to Jerusalem university get free dorms and lots of extra money if they are active in religious brainwashing classes. All funded by American Christians.

Israel is also part of a general global trend towards conservatism. So religion has recently become important in Israel. This is a new trend

For many decades Palestinians have been forced from their land and homes to make way for Jewish colonization. Do Jews have a right to do that? A simple yes or no answer.

This has complex reasons. The big reason is that Israel is overpopulated and young people are being priced out of Israeli urban centres. Which has nothing to do with religion... at all.

Another reason is that Israel won it fair and square in wars with the Arabs. They have a right to it. They haven't taken over all of it because they’re being nice to the Arabs. Since Israel just gets shit all the time, because the world is overwhelmingly antisemitic, they’re running out of motivations not to expand the settlements.

The middle east is full of sparesely populated Arab countries. From a Jewish Israeli perspective I understand they might not think its a bog deal to move the Palestinians there. I don't agree with this. But I understand the thinking

The Palestinians have been agressive and intransigent to an extreme degree. I understand if modern Jews are just sick of it.

I don't really care why the Palestinians are behaving like they are. Its inexcusable. Its so extreme. Their rhetoric of wanting to murder all Jews, just doesn’t stop. Why would anyone put up with that decade after decade?

It has nothing to do with terrorism, it has to do with Zionism.

You can make all the usual apologetics for Israel, the fact is it is a genocide at this point.

I think you are too ignorant to be able to have an adult conversation about this imho.

Israel is intentionally destroying and leveling Gaza. Schools, hospitals, homes, business. If the war stopped today the means to raise kids and rebuild the population is gone.

I wonder why? I think you know why they have done it.

What a surprise Israel targets a school if Hamas uses it as a military installation.

Hamas turned all of Gaza into a military base. What a surprise all of Gaza then gets levelled. If you are angry at Hamas for this, I agree. If you are angry at Israel for this, then I would think you're just a racist.

Israel won the war against Arab coalitions. It is about what Israel has done since then.

Today it has nothing to do with Arabs. Jordan and Egypt made peace with Israel, Netanyahu opposed the peace. There is evidence that Netiquette know of the assassination plot and did birthing.

Lol. You are so clueless

Yigal Amir, a right-wing Jewish extremist, assassinated Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin on November 4, 1995
. Amir opposed Rabin's peace efforts with the Palestinians, specifically the Oslo Accords, which he believed endangered Israeli security.

Yes, extremists suck. I agree

Though not directly involved, Benjamin Netanyahu, then leader of the opposition Likud party, is linked to the 1995 assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin through a political atmosphere of intense and inflammatory anti-Rabin rhetoric

I agree

. Right-wing extremists vehemently opposed the Oslo Accords, a peace initiative with the Palestinians, which Rabin championed.

Given the history of Netanyahu and who he is the Gaza war and genocide are obvious.

No, its not. It's not genocide. I think Netanyahu has clean hands. He's run this war with a focus on destroying Hamas, and nothing else. He knows people will try their best to accuse him of war crimes, so he's made sure they've got nothing on him.

I won't try to psychoanalyse Netanyahu. Who knows what his motivations are. But he's acting like a good war time leader should imho

He is the Israeli version of our extreme conservative Christians.

Yes

 

[Derec]

Keir Starmer, Emmanuel Macron, Mark Carney and Anthony Albanese doing a great job as useful idiots.

‘Palestinian State is One of the Fruits of October 7’: Emboldened Hamas Credits Its Violence for Gains as Released Hostage Video Spurs Outcry

Hamas Official Praises October 7 Atrocities: Qatar-based senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad claimed that Hamas’s October 7, 2023, atrocities in Israel spurred Western nations to recognize a Palestinian state. “The initiative by several countries to recognize a Palestinian state is one of the fruits of October 7. We proved that victory over Israel is not impossible, and our weapons are a symbol of Palestinian dignity,” Hamad said during an August 2 interview. His comments came after France, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Malta announced in recent weeks that their governments would officially recognize Palestinian statehood during the UN General Assembly meeting to be held in September. Hamad added, “Without our weapons, no one would be looking in our direction.”

 

[DrZoidberg]

Keir Starmer, Emmanuel Macron, Mark Carney and Anthony Albanese doing a great job as useful idiots.

‘Palestinian State is One of the Fruits of October 7’: Emboldened Hamas Credits Its Violence for Gains as Released Hostage Video Spurs Outcry

Hamas Official Praises October 7 Atrocities: Qatar-based senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad claimed that Hamas’s October 7, 2023, atrocities in Israel spurred Western nations to recognize a Palestinian state. “The initiative by several countries to recognize a Palestinian state is one of the fruits of October 7. We proved that victory over Israel is not impossible, and our weapons are a symbol of Palestinian dignity,” Hamad said during an August 2 interview. His comments came after France, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Malta announced in recent weeks that their governments would officially recognize Palestinian statehood during the UN General Assembly meeting to be held in September. Hamad added, “Without our weapons, no one would be looking in our direction.”

I don't get it either. What's their goal with this? The guarantee endless bloodshed in Israel? It's like after WW2 the west would have just reversed course told Hitler they were sorry and give Germany back to him.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Lol. Check mate. In all fairness, given Hamas track record they might agree to all this but then immediately keep going as if nothing has changed.

But cute of Singapore for trying

 

[Arctish]

Welcome to the 1990s, Singapore.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Israel is not a corrupt country. It's a modern western state.

You say this as if these are mutually exclusive.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Israel is not a corrupt country. It's a modern western state.

You say this as if these are mutually exclusive.

Yes. Yes, I do. Corruption also exists in democracys. But its way worse in dictatorships. Its an extreme difference

Corruption Perceptions Index - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Tigers!]

Keir Starmer, Emmanuel Macron, Mark Carney and Anthony Albanese doing a great job as useful idiots.

We can agree that Anthony Albanese, PM of Australia, is an idiot.
The jury is still out on him being useful.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Fun fact, in 1948 Jordan expelled all Jews from the west bank, giving their land to Arabs. In 1967 Israel took the west bank. They didn't expell the Arabs to give it back to the Jews who used to live there.

So there really shouldn't be any problem, imho, with Jews settling on the west bank on land Arabs aren't using.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Keir Starmer, Emmanuel Macron, Mark Carney and Anthony Albanese doing a great job as useful idiots.

‘Palestinian State is One of the Fruits of October 7’: Emboldened Hamas Credits Its Violence for Gains as Released Hostage Video Spurs Outcry

Hamas Official Praises October 7 Atrocities: Qatar-based senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad claimed that Hamas’s October 7, 2023, atrocities in Israel spurred Western nations to recognize a Palestinian state. “The initiative by several countries to recognize a Palestinian state is one of the fruits of October 7. We proved that victory over Israel is not impossible, and our weapons are a symbol of Palestinian dignity,” Hamad said during an August 2 interview. His comments came after France, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Malta announced in recent weeks that their governments would officially recognize Palestinian statehood during the UN General Assembly meeting to be held in September. Hamad added, “Without our weapons, no one would be looking in our direction.”

I don't get it either. What's their goal with this? The guarantee endless bloodshed in Israel? It's like after WW2 the west would have just reversed course told Hitler they were sorry and give Germany back to him.

Keir Starmer, Emmanuel Macron, Mark Carney and Anthony Albanese doing a great job as useful idiots.

‘Palestinian State is One of the Fruits of October 7’: Emboldened Hamas Credits Its Violence for Gains as Released Hostage Video Spurs Outcry

Hamas Official Praises October 7 Atrocities: Qatar-based senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad claimed that Hamas’s October 7, 2023, atrocities in Israel spurred Western nations to recognize a Palestinian state. “The initiative by several countries to recognize a Palestinian state is one of the fruits of October 7. We proved that victory over Israel is not impossible, and our weapons are a symbol of Palestinian dignity,” Hamad said during an August 2 interview. His comments came after France, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Malta announced in recent weeks that their governments would officially recognize Palestinian statehood during the UN General Assembly meeting to be held in September. Hamad added, “Without our weapons, no one would be looking in our direction.”

You might want to redo the calcs on your diplomatic conclusion. Carney's statement indicates that Hamas isn't involved with the government in Palestine. These statements are generally indicating they are creating a placeholder for a state of Palestine, once it actually gets a government and isn't influenced by terrorism. IE, nothing has changed.

It is effectively an Emancipation Proclamation which is directed not at Palestine or Israel, but the Middle East and Iran, effectively calling their bluff on caring about Palestine.

 

[Arctish]

Fun fact, in 1948 Jordan expelled all Jews from the west bank, giving their land to Arabs.

Not-so-fun fact, in 1948 Zionists carried out Plan Dalet. They murdered and expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. The Transfer Committee of the Jewish Agency, led by Josef Weitz, decided which houses to destroy and which ones to "give" to immigrant Jews while the Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah militants kept the former residents out.

In 1967 Israel took the west bank. They didn't expell the Arabs to give it back to the Jews who used to live there.

So there really shouldn't be any problem, imho, with Jews settling on the west bank on land Arabs aren't using.

The Jews who were expelled have the Right of Return under international law. The Christian, Muslim, Druze, and other Palestinians who were expelled have the same Right for the same reason. So there really shouldn't be any problem with any of them settling in the places where they used to live.

And yet, here we are.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Keir Starmer, Emmanuel Macron, Mark Carney and Anthony Albanese doing a great job as useful idiots.

‘Palestinian State is One of the Fruits of October 7’: Emboldened Hamas Credits Its Violence for Gains as Released Hostage Video Spurs Outcry

Hamas Official Praises October 7 Atrocities: Qatar-based senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad claimed that Hamas’s October 7, 2023, atrocities in Israel spurred Western nations to recognize a Palestinian state. “The initiative by several countries to recognize a Palestinian state is one of the fruits of October 7. We proved that victory over Israel is not impossible, and our weapons are a symbol of Palestinian dignity,” Hamad said during an August 2 interview. His comments came after France, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Malta announced in recent weeks that their governments would officially recognize Palestinian statehood during the UN General Assembly meeting to be held in September. Hamad added, “Without our weapons, no one would be looking in our direction.”

I don't get it either. What's their goal with this? The guarantee endless bloodshed in Israel? It's like after WW2 the west would have just reversed course told Hitler they were sorry and give Germany back to him.

Keir Starmer, Emmanuel Macron, Mark Carney and Anthony Albanese doing a great job as useful idiots.

‘Palestinian State is One of the Fruits of October 7’: Emboldened Hamas Credits Its Violence for Gains as Released Hostage Video Spurs Outcry

Hamas Official Praises October 7 Atrocities: Qatar-based senior Hamas official Ghazi Hamad claimed that Hamas’s October 7, 2023, atrocities in Israel spurred Western nations to recognize a Palestinian state. “The initiative by several countries to recognize a Palestinian state is one of the fruits of October 7. We proved that victory over Israel is not impossible, and our weapons are a symbol of Palestinian dignity,” Hamad said during an August 2 interview. His comments came after France, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Malta announced in recent weeks that their governments would officially recognize Palestinian statehood during the UN General Assembly meeting to be held in September. Hamad added, “Without our weapons, no one would be looking in our direction.”

You might want to redo the calcs on your diplomatic conclusion. Carney's statement indicates that Hamas isn't involved with the government in Palestine. These statements are generally indicating they are creating a placeholder for a state of Palestine, once it actually gets a government and isn't influenced by terrorism. IE, nothing has changed.

It is effectively an Emancipation Proclamation which is directed not at Palestine or Israel, but the Middle East and Iran, effectively calling their bluff on caring about Palestine.

Unless there's a viable party in Gaza not hell bent on murdering all Jews, its going nowhere positive.

Unless they manage to find a Palestinian, in Gaza or in exile, who has any influence in the community, willing to live in peace with Jews, that declaration is just more antisemitism.

There's no evidence anywhere Palestinians have any interest in peaceful co-existance with Jews.

What it looks like is Gazans being rewarded for the 7/10 attack and that they refuse to give up the hostages. Its not a good look for UK or France

 

[Tigers!]

Fun fact, in 1948 Jordan expelled all Jews from the west bank, giving their land to Arabs.

Not-so-fun fact, in 1948 Zionists carried out Plan Dalet. They murdered and expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. The Transfer Committee of the Jewish Agency, led by Josef Weitz, decided which houses to destroy and which ones to "give" to immigrant Jews while the Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah militants kept the former residents out.

In 1967 Israel took the west bank. They didn't expell the Arabs to give it back to the Jews who used to live there.

So there really shouldn't be any problem, imho, with Jews settling on the west bank on land Arabs aren't using.

The Jews who were expelled have the Right of Return under international law. The Christian, Muslim, Druze, and other Palestinians who were expelled have the same Right for the same reason. So there really shouldn't be any problem with any of them settling in the places where they used to live.

And yet, here we are.

There is just so much hatred in that part of the world that I would despair of anyone wanting to live in peace with each other.
I can understand reluctance to return to some areas.

 

[bilby]

There is just so much hatred in that part of the world that I would despair of anyone wanting to live in peace with each other.

That's religion for you.

 

[Arctish]

Fun fact, in 1948 Jordan expelled all Jews from the west bank, giving their land to Arabs.

Not-so-fun fact, in 1948 Zionists carried out Plan Dalet. They murdered and expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. The Transfer Committee of the Jewish Agency, led by Josef Weitz, decided which houses to destroy and which ones to "give" to immigrant Jews while the Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah militants kept the former residents out.

In 1967 Israel took the west bank. They didn't expell the Arabs to give it back to the Jews who used to live there.

So there really shouldn't be any problem, imho, with Jews settling on the west bank on land Arabs aren't using.

The Jews who were expelled have the Right of Return under international law. The Christian, Muslim, Druze, and other Palestinians who were expelled have the same Right for the same reason. So there really shouldn't be any problem with any of them settling in the places where they used to live.

And yet, here we are.

There is just so much hatred in that part of the world that I would despair of anyone wanting to live in peace with each other.

Take comfort in the knowledge that people in that part of the world lived in peace with their neighbors in a multicultural society for 4 centuries before the events in the first half of the 20th century, and can do so again. There will always be haters but they won't always be the ones in charge.

I can understand reluctance to return to some areas.

I understand the reluctance people have to return to places where they and their "kind" were treated badly.

I understand the desire to be surrounded by like-minded individuals in a mutually supportive society.

I understand the desire to acquire valuable property and to build a prosperous life.

But the means by which people create a society or acquire property matters. If those things are done in ways that are harmful to others, then the resulting anger, outrage, and fighting back are also understandable.

 

[Tigers!]

There is just so much hatred in that part of the world that I would despair of anyone wanting to live in peace with each other.

That's religion for you.

That people for you.
Religious, non-religious - neither have the monopoly on hatred.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Fun fact, in 1948 Jordan expelled all Jews from the west bank, giving their land to Arabs.

Not-so-fun fact, in 1948 Zionists carried out Plan Dalet. They murdered and expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. The Transfer Committee of the Jewish Agency, led by Josef Weitz, decided which houses to destroy and which ones to "give" to immigrant Jews while the Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah militants kept the former residents out.

In 1967 Israel took the west bank. They didn't expell the Arabs to give it back to the Jews who used to live there.

So there really shouldn't be any problem, imho, with Jews settling on the west bank on land Arabs aren't using.

The Jews who were expelled have the Right of Return under international law. The Christian, Muslim, Druze, and other Palestinians who were expelled have the same Right for the same reason. So there really shouldn't be any problem with any of them settling in the places where they used to live.

And yet, here we are.

There is just so much hatred in that part of the world that I would despair of anyone wanting to live in peace with each other.
I can understand reluctance to return to some areas.

Muslim hatred for Jews is mostly theatre. Its a collectivist and highly theatrical culture, where you are expected to overtly display your tribal and political affiliation.

Arabs understand the difference between expressing an opinion and holding it. Its normal to behave as best friends for life towards someone who happens to show up for dinner. Or start angrily shouting for some perceived slight. Its a different culture.

For people living in a more individualistic society, it can be hard to understand. People don't just talk freely sharing their honest opinions. People keep their private thoughts much more to themselves.

Arabs don't hate Jews as much as they express it. From a western perspective its just very hard to read. Its also hard for Arabs to read.

That's why outwardly Arabs can have extreme shifts of public opinion, seemingly over night. But it wasn't over night.

 

[bilby]

There is just so much hatred in that part of the world that I would despair of anyone wanting to live in peace with each other.

That's religion for you.

That people for you.
Religious, non-religious - neither have the monopoly on hatred.

Sure. But to hate entire populations of folks you have never even met; That requires religion.