Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Politesse]

I would like to note that it was diplomacy, not genocide, that saved these final survivors of the horror. In particular, American influence. Any American president could have chosen to do as Trump has done. Violence freed 8 hostages. 3 were murdered by their rescuers. 168 were rescued by conference. Let the lesson be clear.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Gospel]

That kid is adorable. I'm talking about the one that's not the POTUS.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Shadowy Man]

Clearly Biden couldn’t get the job done and Trump had to come in and finish the job!

 

[Algor]

Back on topic, I’m honestly trying to understand how Hamas managed to secure the bodies of the hostages for nearly two years amid constant bombardment. Were they able to move them each time they relocated, or did they have a location that somehow stayed protected the whole time? Gaza’s so densely monitored it’s hard to picture how that could go undetected for so long. The reason I ask is because part of the deal involves returning all the hostages, dead or alive , and given Hamas’s history, it’s hard to see why they’d prioritize safeguarding remains. Maybe Israel already knew where the hostages were and chose to strike anything deemed militant in hopes of pressuring Hamas to release them.

Reports are saying Hamas still hasn’t turned over all the hostages, maybe they’re scrambling to find remains they left behind somewhere along the way.

Despite islam, not because of islam.

You sure like rewriting history. You do realize that without 7th-century Islam, the violent tribal society it emerged from would’ve never given rise to the mathematics, astronomy, medicine, and philosophy that shaped civilization itself.

It was because of Islam, bruh, not in spite of it. Don’t let your hatred for the violent, reactionary and modern version of the faith erase the history that made your modern world possible.

Does Tswizzle actually value those things, or are they too "Woke"? Usually Republicans are trying to kill philosophy programs, not enroll in them.

Yeah, judging from his "contributions" here on climate change, it seems that TSwizzle is not a fan of science, and if we can credit Islam for its develpment, that is a strike against Islam in his eyes.

Hi bilby. Please pardon the OT intrusion.

I got your name from someone who used to post here, and who asked me something about one of your previous interactions. I swear I am not trying to troll, annoy you or give you a headache, but I think you could do everyone elsewhere a favour. Pleae consider this question and I’ll fill you in on some details once you answer it. It is not a trick, trap, or in bad faith. I’m an atheist poster on another forum where ai go by this name.

I personally oppose a “right to die”. I would not vote for instituting such a right, although I think I’m familiar with the topic, and my stance comes from a view if what a “ right”is: I think its a universal obligation adopted by consensus, not a thing in and of itself. I know you are in favour of some sort of right to die. If you thought I was standing in the way of your right to die, would you drive right over me?

No, This is not some sort of trap or anything like that: I will clarify if you want (it is tedious, but I will) if you answer.

 

[Algor]

Back on topic, I’m honestly trying to understand how Hamas managed to secure the bodies of the hostages for nearly two years amid constant bombardment. Were they able to move them each time they relocated, or did they have a location that somehow stayed protected the whole time? Gaza’s so densely monitored it’s hard to picture how that could go undetected for so long. The reason I ask is because part of the deal involves returning all the hostages, dead or alive , and given Hamas’s history, it’s hard to see why they’d prioritize safeguarding remains. Maybe Israel already knew where the hostages were and chose to strike anything deemed militant in hopes of pressuring Hamas to release them.

Reports are saying Hamas still hasn’t turned over all the hostages, maybe they’re scrambling to find remains they left behind somewhere along the way.

Despite islam, not because of islam.

You sure like rewriting history. You do realize that without 7th-century Islam, the violent tribal society it emerged from would’ve never given rise to the mathematics, astronomy, medicine, and philosophy that shaped civilization itself.

It was because of Islam, bruh, not in spite of it. Don’t let your hatred for the violent, reactionary and modern version of the faith erase the history that made your modern world possible.

Does Tswizzle actually value those things, or are they too "Woke"? Usually Republicans are trying to kill philosophy programs, not enroll in them.

Yeah, judging from his "contributions" here on climate change, it seems that TSwizzle is not a fan of science, and if we can credit Islam for its develpment, that is a strike against Islam in his eyes.

Hi bilby. Please pardon the OT intrusion.

I got your name from someone who used to post here, and who asked me something about one of your previous interactions. I swear I am not trying to troll, annoy you or give you a headache, but I think you could do everyone elsewhere a favour. Pleae consider this question and I’ll fill you in on some details once you answer it. It is not a trick, trap, or in bad faith. I’m an atheist poster on another forum where ai go by this name.

I personally oppose a “right to die”. I would not vote for instituting such a right, although I think I’m familiar with the topic, and my stance comes from a view if what a “ right”is: I think its a universal obligation adopted by consensus, not a thing in and of itself. I know you are in favour of some sort of right to die. If you thought I was standing in the way of your right to die, would you drive right over me?

No, This is not some sort of trap at all. I will explain once you answer, tho it is tedious.

 

[steve_bank]

Diplomacy backed by a credible threat of the use of force by the USA.

Trump's threats when setting a deadline for release of hostages was likely directed at Iran.

 

[TomC]

I got your name from someone who used to post here, and who asked me something about one of your previous interactions. I swear I am not trying to troll, annoy you or give you a headache, but I think you could do everyone elsewhere a favour. Pleae consider this question and I’ll fill you in on some details once you answer it. It is not a trick, trap, or in bad faith. I’m an atheist poster on another forum where ai go by this name.

I know you well enough to believe that you don't mean to troll.
However, I know that Jagella the Troll, AKA Unknown Soldier, does like to troll. And he's enlisted you. Because he trolled so much on this (and many other forums) that he's been banned.
But I do think that you are a good person. I suggest scrolling through the thread in the morals section called "Do we have a right to die?" Bilby's post is #133. You'll get a sense for why he's banned from here, and many other forums.
Tom

 

[Algor]

I got your name from someone who used to post here, and who asked me something about one of your previous interactions. I swear I am not trying to troll, annoy you or give you a headache, but I think you could do everyone elsewhere a favour. Pleae consider this question and I’ll fill you in on some details once you answer it. It is not a trick, trap, or in bad faith. I’m an atheist poster on another forum where ai go by this name.

I know you well enough to believe that you don't mean to troll.
However, I know that Jagella the Troll, AKA Unknown Soldier, does like to troll. And he's enlisted you. Because he trolled so much on this (and many other forums) that he's been banned.
But I do think that you are a good person. I suggest scrolling through the thread in the morals section called "Do we have a right to die?" Bilby's post is #133. You'll get a sense for why he's banned from here, and many other forums.
Tom

I very much appreciate the vote of confidence, and can understand what you say and why. A yes or no might put paid to a lot of perfect silliness either way. It is true I am not so familiar with bilby, but if he chooses not to comment, it is no skin off my nose either way. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Maybe the 5 minutes of back breaking labour this all required, lol.

 

[Tigers!]

I would like to note that it was diplomacy, not genocide, that saved these final survivors of the horror. In particular, American influence. Any American president could have chosen to do as Trump has done. Violence freed 8 hostages. 3 were murdered by their rescuers. 168 were rescued by conference. Let the lesson be clear.

Yet how much better if the hostages were never taken in the first place.
Let the lesson be clear.

All that killing and destruction for what purpose or aim? (aiming at both Hamas and Israel)

 

[Tigers!]

Back on topic, I’m honestly trying to understand how Hamas managed to secure the bodies of the hostages for nearly two years amid constant bombardment. Were they able to move them each time they relocated, or did they have a location that somehow stayed protected the whole time? Gaza’s so densely monitored it’s hard to picture how that could go undetected for so long. The reason I ask is because part of the deal involves returning all the hostages, dead or alive , and given Hamas’s history, it’s hard to see why they’d prioritize safeguarding remains. Maybe Israel already knew where the hostages were and chose to strike anything deemed militant in hopes of pressuring Hamas to release them.

Reports are saying Hamas still hasn’t turned over all the hostages, maybe they’re scrambling to find remains they left behind somewhere along the way.

Most probably moving the hostages through their tunnel system. But as the tunnels were blown up, captured the system got fragmented and hostages in one particular part were most probably forced to stay there. And some were buried with exact location unknown.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Palestinians do not have the ability for stable self rule.

That is one of the most vile statements of casual and thoughtless racism it has ever been my misfortune to see.

It doesn't have to be racism. It can also just be an observation about the social realities of Gaza at the moment. There can be cultural factors not linked to race, to make Steve's statement true right now.

Its a good day. The last hostages that are still alive have been returned.

That's something to celebrate

To be grateful for. Celebrate... seems a little callous of the losses of those who were hostages (and their families) for over two years.

Why? Why would celebrating the survivors coming home be callous? I can't follow your logic.

Because the happiness of those in Israel, particularly of the families, is tainted with the bitter reality that the former hostages were subjected to an unfathomable amount of psychological harm. They were only released, their healing is going to take the rest of their lives. Some may never heal.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Not celebrating would be the calous thing to do IMHO. That would be indicative of that the hostages had done something shameful. No? This is the thing Israel (and the world) have been aiming for for two years. Now they succeeded. How is that not something that should be celebrated?

 

[bilby]

Bilby's post is #133. You'll get a sense for why he's banned from here, and many other forums.

Wait, I am banned?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Despite islam, not because of islam.

You sure like rewriting history. You do realize that without 7th-century Islam, the violent tribal society it emerged from would’ve never given rise to the mathematics, astronomy, medicine, and philosophy that shaped civilization itself.

It was because of Islam, bruh, not in spite of it. Don’t let your hatred for the violent, reactionary and modern version of the faith erase the history that made your modern world possible.

Persia was the center of European scientific learning from about 600 bc to 1200 AD. When Islam conquered Baghdad they took it over. Mohammed forbade the mixing of Muslims with Zoroastrians. So the Zoroastrians were allowed to just get on with it. Which explains why the Islamic countries kept being scientifically litterate. After the Mongols conquered Baghdad Islam became backward. Islam shifted to a more militant culture which is where it's still at.

The culture wars regarding Medieval Islam has led to a weird situation where nationalists and conservatives want to believe Islam is more backward than it was. The leftists want to believe that Islam was more peace loving and functional than it was. Muslims themselves spread rediculous fantasies about how amazing Mohammed and the Muslims were.

If you want to pin the scientific acheivements of the Middle-East to a specific relgion, I'd pick zoroastrianism over Islam. The Islamic golden age came at a time when the Byzantinians were in decline and the Arab rulers had wisely kept the zoroastrian structure of learning intact. As a result the Quran is obviously a product of zoroastrian scholars. Written in a zoroastrian tradition. Just with Islamic words.

We're not so acquainted with zoroastrianism in the west. Western history has a long tradition of seeing us as the descendents of Greeks, locked in constant opposition with the East. This is a Renaissance invention. The Greeks certainly didn't see it that way. The Persians weren't seen as the monster we get in the film 300. When in reality the Greeks admired and looked up to the Persians. But because the Mongols destroyed Baghdag and because the monks of Constantinople kept the Greek works, we got a skewed narrative. But now thanks to archeology, we know better.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I would like to note that it was diplomacy, not genocide, that saved these final survivors of the horror. In particular, American influence. Any American president could have chosen to do as Trump has done. Violence freed 8 hostages. 3 were murdered by their rescuers. 168 were rescued by conference. Let the lesson be clear.

I agree that there was no genocide. But I think you are naive if you think Israels military action played no part in getting the hostages freed.

I think the final hostages were freed because Hamas is now strugling to stay in power in Gaza. I think they did it out of necessity. Why are their power fadingin Gaza? Certainly it's because of Israels military actions.

 

[Gospel]

Despite islam, not because of islam.

You sure like rewriting history. You do realize that without 7th-century Islam, the violent tribal society it emerged from would’ve never given rise to the mathematics, astronomy, medicine, and philosophy that shaped civilization itself.

It was because of Islam, bruh, not in spite of it. Don’t let your hatred for the violent, reactionary and modern version of the faith erase the history that made your modern world possible.

Persia was the center of European scientific learning from about 600 bc to 1200 AD. When Islam conquered Baghdad they took it over. Mohammed forbade the mixing of Muslims with Zoroastrians. So the Zoroastrians were allowed to just get on with it. Which explains why the Islamic countries kept being scientifically litterate. After the Mongols conquered Baghdad Islam became backward. Islam shifted to a more militant culture which is where it's still at.

The culture wars regarding Medieval Islam has led to a weird situation where nationalists and conservatives want to believe Islam is more backward than it was. The leftists want to believe that Islam was more peace loving and functional than it was. Muslims themselves spread rediculous fantasies about how amazing Mohammed and the Muslims were.

If you want to pin the scientific acheivements of the Middle-East to a specific relgion, I'd pick zoroastrianism over Islam. The Islamic golden age came at a time when the Byzantinians were in decline and the Arab rulers had wisely kept the zoroastrian structure of learning intact. As a result the Quran is obviously a product of zoroastrian scholars. Written in a zoroastrian tradition. Just with Islamic words.

We're not so acquainted with zoroastrianism in the west. Western history has a long tradition of seeing us as the descendents of Greeks, locked in constant opposition with the East. This is a Renaissance invention. The Greeks certainly didn't see it that way. The Persians weren't seen as the monster we get in the film 300. When in reality the Greeks admired and looked up to the Persians. But because the Mongols destroyed Baghdag and because the monks of Constantinople kept the Greek works, we got a skewed narrative. But now thanks to archeology, we know better.

You’re right that Persia had a long intellectual tradition before Islam, Zoroastrian and Hellenistic influences were major factors.

But claiming Islam “forbade the mixing of Muslims with Zoroastrians” or that “the Quran was a Zoroastrian product” is a huge leap. The early Islamic empires absorbed knowledge from conquered regions precisely because the Qur’an encouraged the pursuit of knowledge and reflection on creation , that’s why translation projects like the House of Wisdom thrived under Muslim patronage. The scholars weren’t just preserving Zoroastrian or Greek thought; they were building on it, debating it, correcting it, and producing original work in astronomy, optics, mathematics, and medicine.

I'll concede that it wasn't “because of Islam”. I could have said it better when countering Tswissle's "despite Islam" claim. What I meant was that Islam built the kind of environment where Greek, Persian, Indian, and Arab traditions could collide and collaborate under the same roof.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Palestinians do not have the ability for stable self rule.

That is one of the most vile statements of casual and thoughtless racism it has ever been my misfortune to see.

It doesn't have to be racism. It can also just be an observation about the social realities of Gaza at the moment. There can be cultural factors not linked to race, to make Steve's statement true right now.

Its a good day. The last hostages that are still alive have been returned.

That's something to celebrate

To be grateful for. Celebrate... seems a little callous of the losses of those who were hostages (and their families) for over two years.

Why? Why would celebrating the survivors coming home be callous? I can't follow your logic.

Because the happiness of those in Israel, particularly of the families, is tainted with the bitter reality that the former hostages were subjected to an unfathomable amount of psychological harm. They were only released, their healing is going to take the rest of their lives. Some may never heal.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Not celebrating would be the calous thing to do IMHO.

Your opinion isn't worth much. Especially when it requires taking people way outside the context of their statements so you can try and look smart.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I would like to note that it was diplomacy, not genocide, that saved these final survivors of the horror. In particular, American influence. Any American president could have chosen to do as Trump has done. Violence freed 8 hostages. 3 were murdered by their rescuers. 168 were rescued by conference. Let the lesson be clear.

Yet how much better if the hostages were never taken in the first place.

What speck of wisdom are we supposed to take from the obvious statement, 'we would have been better if Hamas didn't murder all those people'.

Yes, and we can't smokescreen America's fuck-up in Iraq by saying 'well, it'd been better if the 9/11 attack never happened'.

We can't let prior horrors by others justify any and all future acts.

Let the lesson be clear.

All that killing and destruction for what purpose or aim? (aiming at both Hamas and Israel)

What purpose? Are you not paying attention at all?

For Israel it is two-fold, self-preservation and wanting to take more of Gaza for Israeli settlement (the previous justified the later not). The later is also the reason why Netanyahu doesn't want a Palestinian state because that means borders become fixed.
For Iran, it helps keep the religious despots in power. They effectively use Hamas to use Gazans as fodder. Gazans don't gain anything with any of the violence against Israel or themselves. Gaza has legitimate grievances, but no one really cares and Hamas makes certain that the grievances don't get addressed because hungry poor people are much more willing to do their bidding than lower middle class people.