Harvey Weinstein scandal

[Underseer]

I'm not saying that no women could resist his advances. What I'm saying is that loads of sexy women would be trying damn hard to get to have sex with him. If all he wants is to have sex with a sexy woman, why waste his time on a woman he wasn't sure about?

Because sexual assault is not just about having sex. It is about denying the option of consent to their victim... taking what they want without permission.

It is a type of theft... and even the wealthiest people can be kleptomaniacs.

And, imo, it's also at least sometimes about not having to consider for even a millisecond what the other person wants, needs or feels. Or that they feel. Sure, there are sadistic bastards who get off on invoking terror and pain, but I think plenty of date rapey guys just don't give a rat's ass about the other person. At all. Which, I think is also the appeal of those who visit prostitutes, at least for some.

I really think the date rape guys are dealing with confusion about what is actually going on. Much of our society promotes that disgusting "She says no, but means yes" idea.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Here's another good article on it

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...l-brett-ratners-assault-claim-denials-1060772

 

[J842P]

I'm not saying that no women could resist his advances. What I'm saying is that loads of sexy women would be trying damn hard to get to have sex with him. If all he wants is to have sex with a sexy woman, why waste his time on a woman he wasn't sure about?

Because sexual assault is not just about having sex. It is about denying the option of consent to their victim... taking what they want without permission.

It is a type of theft... and even the wealthiest people can be kleptomaniacs.

And, imo, it's also at least sometimes about not having to consider for even a millisecond what the other person wants, needs or feels. Or that they feel. Sure, there are sadistic bastards who get off on invoking terror and pain, but I think plenty of date rapey guys just don't give a rat's ass about the other person. At all. Which, I think is also the appeal of those who visit prostitutes, at least for some.

We could call these two categories the "predator and the brute."

But really, I think the majority of date-rapey stuff is a confluence of miscommunication, naivete and inexperience, and lots and lots of alcohol.

That doesn't count the sort that actually involves date-rape drugs.

 

[RavenSky]

So you don't see a problem with #metoo? I hope you have noticed how accusations in this thread have been posted as if true? So we already know it's not bullshit, just based on the behaviour on this forum.

"Problem"? No. But I hope YOU have noticed that I have posted several posts and at least one excellent 3rd party article calling for caution and rational thinking regarding all of the various allegations. This, however, has nothing to do with your initial claim that I responded to.

I don't know if it is your own idea, or if you are hearing/reading other people saying that, but it is the exact opposite of an adult, rational reaction to the current pushback against sexual assault.

 

[Toni]

Because sexual assault is not just about having sex. It is about denying the option of consent to their victim... taking what they want without permission.

It is a type of theft... and even the wealthiest people can be kleptomaniacs.

And, imo, it's also at least sometimes about not having to consider for even a millisecond what the other person wants, needs or feels. Or that they feel. Sure, there are sadistic bastards who get off on invoking terror and pain, but I think plenty of date rapey guys just don't give a rat's ass about the other person. At all. Which, I think is also the appeal of those who visit prostitutes, at least for some.

I really think the date rape guys are dealing with confusion about what is actually going on. Much of our society promotes that disgusting "She says no, but means yes" idea.

Sure, there is that.

But there are also guys who specifically seek out very drunk girls because drunk = consent is not necessary in their minds. Because, if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have let herself get drunk, right?

Unfortunately, I have had my own experience with that sort of guy and so have a lot of my friends. And there are guys who believe that if he took you out for an expensive dinner, then, you owe him whatever he wants. You gave consent when you accepted his invitation. Which is why a lot of young women always insist on paying their way until the relationship is established. I did this myself, and so do a number of young women I know now. Less confusion about what is 'owed.' And usually a lesson learned the hard way.


I think there is less stigma now for girls who aren't virgins or who aren't perceived to be virgins or faithful to their long time boyfriend than there used to be. But still a penalty if the girl is perceived to be 'slutty.' Again: consent isn't an issue because she obviously wants it. Otherwise she wouldn't have (insert allegations) like everybody know she did.

The thing is, a lot of girls (and I am deliberately using the term girls) don't have a very strong sense of their own autonomy, of their own rights to say no, especially when in a situation where the guy is very popular or more 'sophisticated' or especially much older. This is the biggest reason that statutory rape laws are necessary.

Girls can be pretty naive, too.

 

[couch_sloth]

And, imo, it's also at least sometimes about not having to consider for even a millisecond what the other person wants, needs or feels. Or that they feel. Sure, there are sadistic bastards who get off on invoking terror and pain, but I think plenty of date rapey guys just don't give a rat's ass about the other person. At all. Which, I think is also the appeal of those who visit prostitutes, at least for some.

I really think the date rape guys are dealing with confusion about what is actually going on. Much of our society promotes that disgusting "She says no, but means yes" idea.

Sure, there is that.

But there are also guys who specifically seek out very drunk girls because drunk = consent is not necessary in their minds. Because, if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have let herself get drunk, right?

Unfortunately, I have had my own experience with that sort of guy and so have a lot of my friends. And there are guys who believe that if he took you out for an expensive dinner, then, you owe him whatever he wants. You gave consent when you accepted his invitation. Which is why a lot of young women always insist on paying their way until the relationship is established. I did this myself, and so do a number of young women I know now. Less confusion about what is 'owed.' And usually a lesson learned the hard way.


I think there is less stigma now for girls who aren't virgins or who aren't perceived to be virgins or faithful to their long time boyfriend than there used to be. But still a penalty if the girl is perceived to be 'slutty.' Again: consent isn't an issue because she obviously wants it. Otherwise she wouldn't have (insert allegations) like everybody know she did.

The thing is, a lot of girls (and I am deliberately using the term girls) don't have a very strong sense of their own autonomy, of their own rights to say no, especially when in a situation where the guy is very popular or more 'sophisticated' or especially much older. This is the biggest reason that statutory rape laws are necessary.

Girls can be pretty naive, too.

One thing important thing to teach girls & young women is that some guys will say literally anything to get in their pants. And many of these guys are very good at bull-shitting women, and are excellent smooth talkers.
Maybe only 5-10% of guys are like this. But they probably hit-on 20X more women than the average guy, and they probably get laid by 10X more women than they average schmo... So young attractive women will run into these types of men.

 

[barbos]

I really think the date rape guys are dealing with confusion about what is actually going on. Much of our society promotes that disgusting "She says no, but means yes" idea.

Sure, there is that.

But there are also guys who specifically seek out very drunk girls because drunk = consent is not necessary in their minds. Because, if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have let herself get drunk, right?

Unfortunately, I have had my own experience with that sort of guy and so have a lot of my friends. And there are guys who believe that if he took you out for an expensive dinner, then, you owe him whatever he wants. You gave consent when you accepted his invitation. Which is why a lot of young women always insist on paying their way until the relationship is established. I did this myself, and so do a number of young women I know now. Less confusion about what is 'owed.' And usually a lesson learned the hard way.


I think there is less stigma now for girls who aren't virgins or who aren't perceived to be virgins or faithful to their long time boyfriend than there used to be. But still a penalty if the girl is perceived to be 'slutty.' Again: consent isn't an issue because she obviously wants it. Otherwise she wouldn't have (insert allegations) like everybody know she did.

The thing is, a lot of girls (and I am deliberately using the term girls) don't have a very strong sense of their own autonomy, of their own rights to say no, especially when in a situation where the guy is very popular or more 'sophisticated' or especially much older. This is the biggest reason that statutory rape laws are necessary.

Girls can be pretty naive, too.

One thing important thing to teach girls & young women is that some guys will say literally anything to get in their pants. And many of these guys are very good at bull-shitting women, and are excellent smooth talkers.
Maybe only 5-10% of guys are like this. But they probably hit-on 20X more women than the average guy, and they probably get laid by 10X more women than they average schmo... So young attractive women will run into these types of men.

True. It's probably offtopic but there is an evolutionary explanation for this. The reason why "bullshitters" are "attractive" is because (other) women find them attractive. It does seem circular but it's nevertheless how sexual selection works. That's why women fall for really physically unattractive and unhealthy rock stars and etc. They think their male descendants (specifically sons) would have success with women their father had.
Men have the same thing for physically attractive women, but physically attractive women are more likely to be healthy too. Whereas in case of men it's less important. Women literally have to rely on opinions of other women.

 

[Underseer]

And, imo, it's also at least sometimes about not having to consider for even a millisecond what the other person wants, needs or feels. Or that they feel. Sure, there are sadistic bastards who get off on invoking terror and pain, but I think plenty of date rapey guys just don't give a rat's ass about the other person. At all. Which, I think is also the appeal of those who visit prostitutes, at least for some.

I really think the date rape guys are dealing with confusion about what is actually going on. Much of our society promotes that disgusting "She says no, but means yes" idea.

Sure, there is that.

But there are also guys who specifically seek out very drunk girls because drunk = consent is not necessary in their minds. Because, if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have let herself get drunk, right?

Unfortunately, I have had my own experience with that sort of guy and so have a lot of my friends. And there are guys who believe that if he took you out for an expensive dinner, then, you owe him whatever he wants. You gave consent when you accepted his invitation. Which is why a lot of young women always insist on paying their way until the relationship is established. I did this myself, and so do a number of young women I know now. Less confusion about what is 'owed.' And usually a lesson learned the hard way.


I think there is less stigma now for girls who aren't virgins or who aren't perceived to be virgins or faithful to their long time boyfriend than there used to be. But still a penalty if the girl is perceived to be 'slutty.' Again: consent isn't an issue because she obviously wants it. Otherwise she wouldn't have (insert allegations) like everybody know she did.

The thing is, a lot of girls (and I am deliberately using the term girls) don't have a very strong sense of their own autonomy, of their own rights to say no, especially when in a situation where the guy is very popular or more 'sophisticated' or especially much older. This is the biggest reason that statutory rape laws are necessary.

Girls can be pretty naive, too.

There are certain "hard to get" games some women will play that encourage men to think "she says no, but means yes," which I think contributes to possible misunderstandings. A lot of men have inflated self-image about their own attractiveness and cling to the "no means yes" as part of their ego-boosting delusions.

 

[Trausti]

True. It's probably offtopic but there is an evolutionary explanation for this. The reason why "bullshitters" are "attractive" is because (other) women find them attractive. It does seem circular but it's nevertheless how sexual selection works.

Mate Choice Copying

The Presence of Others on Judgments of Desirability

Women see a guy surrounded by attractive women and then compete with those other women for the guy. The rich and powerful Hollywood dude probably gets a lot of tail.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So you don't see a problem with #metoo? I hope you have noticed how accusations in this thread have been posted as if true? So we already know it's not bullshit, just based on the behaviour on this forum.

"Problem"? No. But I hope YOU have noticed that I have posted several posts and at least one excellent 3rd party article calling for caution and rational thinking regarding all of the various allegations. This, however, has nothing to do with your initial claim that I responded to.

I don't know if it is your own idea, or if you are hearing/reading other people saying that, but it is the exact opposite of an adult, rational reaction to the current pushback against sexual assault.

I don't think you're making any sense. You're sliding back and forward all over the map.

I was all for #metoo initially. But it didn't take long before it spiralled out of control and just turned plain ugly. It went really fucking fast. People uncritically sharing accusations as if true. I think this thread reflects the rest of society nicely.

 

[Underseer]

So you don't see a problem with #metoo? I hope you have noticed how accusations in this thread have been posted as if true? So we already know it's not bullshit, just based on the behaviour on this forum.

"Problem"? No. But I hope YOU have noticed that I have posted several posts and at least one excellent 3rd party article calling for caution and rational thinking regarding all of the various allegations. This, however, has nothing to do with your initial claim that I responded to.

I don't know if it is your own idea, or if you are hearing/reading other people saying that, but it is the exact opposite of an adult, rational reaction to the current pushback against sexual assault.

I don't think you're making any sense. You're sliding back and forward all over the map.

I was all for #metoo initially. But it didn't take long before it spiralled out of control and just turned plain ugly. It went really fucking fast. People uncritically sharing accusations as if true. I think this thread reflects the rest of society nicely.

What exactly is "ugly" about it?

Women finally have an expectation that they will be believed when they tell someone about these things, so a lot of things are surfacing that were previously hidden by rape culture.

What part of that is bad?

 

[Bronzeage]

I'm just saying things that I thought should be fucking obvious to anyone?

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMi0UtvTIc

Here's a good talk related to #metoo

That is one of the symptoms of a skewed view point.

 

[Toni]

I really think the date rape guys are dealing with confusion about what is actually going on. Much of our society promotes that disgusting "She says no, but means yes" idea.

Sure, there is that.

But there are also guys who specifically seek out very drunk girls because drunk = consent is not necessary in their minds. Because, if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have let herself get drunk, right?

Unfortunately, I have had my own experience with that sort of guy and so have a lot of my friends. And there are guys who believe that if he took you out for an expensive dinner, then, you owe him whatever he wants. You gave consent when you accepted his invitation. Which is why a lot of young women always insist on paying their way until the relationship is established. I did this myself, and so do a number of young women I know now. Less confusion about what is 'owed.' And usually a lesson learned the hard way.


I think there is less stigma now for girls who aren't virgins or who aren't perceived to be virgins or faithful to their long time boyfriend than there used to be. But still a penalty if the girl is perceived to be 'slutty.' Again: consent isn't an issue because she obviously wants it. Otherwise she wouldn't have (insert allegations) like everybody know she did.

The thing is, a lot of girls (and I am deliberately using the term girls) don't have a very strong sense of their own autonomy, of their own rights to say no, especially when in a situation where the guy is very popular or more 'sophisticated' or especially much older. This is the biggest reason that statutory rape laws are necessary.

Girls can be pretty naive, too.

There are certain "hard to get" games some women will play that encourage men to think "she says no, but means yes," which I think contributes to possible misunderstandings. A lot of men have inflated self-image about their own attractiveness and cling to the "no means yes" as part of their ego-boosting delusions.

I've never known any woman in real life to play 'hard to get.' I've seen it in movies but not in real life.

That said, I dated a guy back in high school after he asked me out pretty persistently. Not game playing but we were friends and I didn't want to wreck the friendship.

 

[Trausti]

 

[RavenSky]

So you don't see a problem with #metoo? I hope you have noticed how accusations in this thread have been posted as if true? So we already know it's not bullshit, just based on the behaviour on this forum.

"Problem"? No. But I hope YOU have noticed that I have posted several posts and at least one excellent 3rd party article calling for caution and rational thinking regarding all of the various allegations. This, however, has nothing to do with your initial claim that I responded to.

I don't know if it is your own idea, or if you are hearing/reading other people saying that, but it is the exact opposite of an adult, rational reaction to the current pushback against sexual assault.

I don't think you're making any sense. You're sliding back and forward all over the map.

I was all for #metoo initially. But it didn't take long before it spiralled out of control and just turned plain ugly. It went really fucking fast. People uncritically sharing accusations as if true. I think this thread reflects the rest of society nicely.

I don't think you are understanding me. I am no more "sliding all over the place" than you are. I think that it is very important for us to view each allegation with a "trust but verify" approach. I have previously said this in several posts. I even made the comparison to the 1980's day-care abuse hysteria; and said I would not want to see something similar wrt the current outpouring of sexual assault reports.

However, I think you are over-reacting in the opposite direction. I think that you vastly underestimate the amount of sexual harassment and low-level sexual assault that happens. What we are seeing is decades of pent up frustration pouring out; and I expect far more before the rage starts to subside. And yes, innocent people can easily be swept up in the maelstrom - something none of us wants to see. Hence, trust but verify.

 

[DrZoidberg]

"Problem"? No. But I hope YOU have noticed that I have posted several posts and at least one excellent 3rd party article calling for caution and rational thinking regarding all of the various allegations. This, however, has nothing to do with your initial claim that I responded to.

I don't know if it is your own idea, or if you are hearing/reading other people saying that, but it is the exact opposite of an adult, rational reaction to the current pushback against sexual assault.

I don't think you're making any sense. You're sliding back and forward all over the map.

I was all for #metoo initially. But it didn't take long before it spiralled out of control and just turned plain ugly. It went really fucking fast. People uncritically sharing accusations as if true. I think this thread reflects the rest of society nicely.

I don't think you are understanding me. I am no more "sliding all over the place" than you are. I think that it is very important for us to view each allegation with a "trust but verify" approach. I have previously said this in several posts. I even made the comparison to the 1980's day-care abuse hysteria; and said I would not want to see something similar wrt the current outpouring of sexual assault reports.

However, I think you are over-reacting in the opposite direction. I think that you vastly underestimate the amount of sexual harassment and low-level sexual assault that happens. What we are seeing is decades of pent up frustration pouring out; and I expect far more before the rage starts to subside. And yes, innocent people can easily be swept up in the maelstrom - something none of us wants to see. Hence, trust but verify.

If you're having a problem with my fairly low demands of verification, then I'd say your degree of required verification is worthless and dangerous. It's doubly dangerous since you seem to see yourself as some kind of reasoned middle ground.

Yes, I'm sure it's decades of pent up frustration. And there's still a lot of good that is coming out of it. But there's a he'll of a lot in the media that is click-bait trash. Again I'll use the example of Louis CK. The fact that he got crucified for that is crazy. That's what I mean with out of control.

 

[RavenSky]

I don't think you're making any sense. You're sliding back and forward all over the map.

I was all for #metoo initially. But it didn't take long before it spiralled out of control and just turned plain ugly. It went really fucking fast. People uncritically sharing accusations as if true. I think this thread reflects the rest of society nicely.

I don't think you are understanding me. I am no more "sliding all over the place" than you are. I think that it is very important for us to view each allegation with a "trust but verify" approach. I have previously said this in several posts. I even made the comparison to the 1980's day-care abuse hysteria; and said I would not want to see something similar wrt the current outpouring of sexual assault reports.

However, I think you are over-reacting in the opposite direction. I think that you vastly underestimate the amount of sexual harassment and low-level sexual assault that happens. What we are seeing is decades of pent up frustration pouring out; and I expect far more before the rage starts to subside. And yes, innocent people can easily be swept up in the maelstrom - something none of us wants to see. Hence, trust but verify.

If you're having a problem with my fairly low demands of verification, then I'd say your degree of required verification is worthless and dangerous. It's doubly dangerous since you seem to see yourself as some kind of reasoned middle ground.

Since I AM in a reasoned middle ground, and you have failed to point out any example/instance where I am not - this appears to be a bunch of nonsensical hand-waving on your part

Yes, I'm sure it's decades of pent up frustration. And there's still a lot of good that is coming out of it.

agreed

But there's a he'll of a lot in the media that is click-bait trash.

agreed again

Again I'll use the example of Louis CK. The fact that he got crucified for that is crazy. That's what I mean with out of control.

He didn't get "crucified". He CONFIRMED the 5 allegations against him, and he apologized.

Do I think what he did is on par with Roy Moore? No.

Are the various companies he was associated with stepping back for now? Yes, as is their right. And I predict that he will beback in business within a year.

Do I find it obnoxious that he has suffered consequences for his behavior while Roy Moore is getting endorsed by the orange turd? Yes. Bigly.

But he is not being prosecuted or sued or permanently put out of business or "crucified".

I will also remind you that reports of his behavior have come out before... and were ignored and promptly squashed. Perhaps if he had dealt with it then, he wouldn't be part of the #MeToo situation now.

There isn't any question that he did, in fact, manipulate women in order to satisfy his fetish for public masterbation. And that's the key here, he manipulated the women. He did not have affirmative consent from them. He fully acknowledges this, and there is a pattern over multiple years with multiple women. He has apologized. And now he will get on with his life, hopefully a little wiser and more considerate of the women around him.

 

[Bronzeage]

Sure, there is that.

But there are also guys who specifically seek out very drunk girls because drunk = consent is not necessary in their minds. Because, if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have let herself get drunk, right?

Unfortunately, I have had my own experience with that sort of guy and so have a lot of my friends. And there are guys who believe that if he took you out for an expensive dinner, then, you owe him whatever he wants. You gave consent when you accepted his invitation. Which is why a lot of young women always insist on paying their way until the relationship is established. I did this myself, and so do a number of young women I know now. Less confusion about what is 'owed.' And usually a lesson learned the hard way.


I think there is less stigma now for girls who aren't virgins or who aren't perceived to be virgins or faithful to their long time boyfriend than there used to be. But still a penalty if the girl is perceived to be 'slutty.' Again: consent isn't an issue because she obviously wants it. Otherwise she wouldn't have (insert allegations) like everybody know she did.

The thing is, a lot of girls (and I am deliberately using the term girls) don't have a very strong sense of their own autonomy, of their own rights to say no, especially when in a situation where the guy is very popular or more 'sophisticated' or especially much older. This is the biggest reason that statutory rape laws are necessary.

Girls can be pretty naive, too.

There are certain "hard to get" games some women will play that encourage men to think "she says no, but means yes," which I think contributes to possible misunderstandings. A lot of men have inflated self-image about their own attractiveness and cling to the "no means yes" as part of their ego-boosting delusions.

I've never known any woman in real life to play 'hard to get.' I've seen it in movies but not in real life.

That said, I dated a guy back in high school after he asked me out pretty persistently. Not game playing but we were friends and I didn't want to wreck the friendship.

Women who play "hard to get", don't want to be got. It's an escape strategy, not a baiting strategy.

 

[rousseau]

Reading a few posts in the last string and I tend to side with the fact that sexual harassment is a very large and ongoing problem, and that when hundreds of thousands of women report a problem, we should probably listen to them.

Even worse is that the problem is mostly genetic. Men were made to pursue women. It's literally what it means to be a heterosexual male. Not that this can't be overcome but treading that line between respectful pursuit and sexual harassment is literally very hard to figure out and many men are very stupid and can't piece it together.

So what we're seeing now is a lot of women calling out these dumbass men for all the shitty things they consistently do. It's really the only way anything can be done about the problem. Men need to be made aware of their transgressions, and they need to be made aware of how to form healthy relationships with women.

 

[Arctish]

There are certain "hard to get" games some women will play that encourage men to think "she says no, but means yes," which I think contributes to possible misunderstandings. A lot of men have inflated self-image about their own attractiveness and cling to the "no means yes" as part of their ego-boosting delusions.

I've never known any woman in real life to play 'hard to get.' I've seen it in movies but not in real life.

That said, I dated a guy back in high school after he asked me out pretty persistently. Not game playing but we were friends and I didn't want to wreck the friendship.

Women who play "hard to get", don't want to be got. It's an escape strategy, not a baiting strategy.

I agree.

If you think a woman is 'playing' hard to get, check your premises. She might be completely serious about not hooking up. She might be pursuing a relationship with someone else. She might have doubts about a suitor's sincerity or character and wants to take her time evaluating the situation before making a commitment.

Whatever her reasons, it's better to presume she's serious about them than not.