How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Loren Pechtel]

I already told you. The goal of NATO is encircle Russia and eventually suffocate it.
Putin himself says NATO in Ukraine is close enough for decapitating strike.
I personally think he does not believe that NATO would ever attack Russia.
So it's about surrounding Russia with puppet NATO states and harass Russia into submission. That's my theory. And I think Putin has the same theory.

Nobody is trying to get rid of Russia.

If you want to be left alone in the world don't attack anyone and don't commit atrocities on your own population. Simple enough.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There is a thesis propounded by many that NATO expansion to the east after the collapse of the Soviet Union was a mistake. This thesis was shared by George Kennan, one of the architects of NATO, who said in the late 90s, when the expansion was taking place, that it was a mistake, that NATO was founded purely as a bulwark against Soviet aggression in Western Europe and with the demise of the Soviets, it had lost is reason for existence and certainly had no reason to expand. I have always had some sympathy for this argument.

The Soviet Union ceased to exist, the change in ownership didn't change the basic reason for the existence of NATO. The threat remained.

 

[barbos]

Stalin made a bargain with Hityler in part for getting a piece of Polan and Finland he thought was Russian. We know how that ended. up.

The USSR gained a piece of Finland in 1940 and of Poland in 1941. Both pieces remained in its possession after WWII.

Yes, they got piece of Finland BEFORE war, not after.
And piece of Poland they got BEFORE the war, was not really a piece of Poland but a piece of Russia they lost or rather left in WW1.

Bullshit. Stalin started the war to grab that land. That hardly counts as getting something "before" the war. And since your granpa fought in that war, you should know that USSR lost territory during the winter war, and only gained it back later in the continuation war and the peace treaty after the war.

Sorry, you are engaging in deception, Russia took part of Finland in Winter War
Then Germany attacked and then you joined them in what you call Continuation war and obviously retook that territory. By your logic you (Germany&Finland&The Rest) took Ukraine Belarus and were about to take Moscow.
You are gonna get into troubles with this logic. Putin just invaded Ukraine because ukrainians were distorting WW2 history

Some of us had family members living in Poland when Russia invaded.

Russia did not invade Poland, Russia took back its own land they lost in WW1.

That still counts as an invasion. Just because Stalin (or Putin) thinks that he's entitled to some plot of land, doesn't mean he actually is.

Well, Poland invaded Czechoslovakia, why don't we discuss that now?
It's about time.

 

[steve_bank]

I listend to a report saying we will be supplying weapons to Ukraine.

If so Biden is raising the bet and caling Putin on his threats for any interference.

 

[steve_bank]

This is going nowhere.

I'm pretty sure it's going to "world war 3 because Russian forces stormed a border."

Intrinsically it will not be a world war as WWII was, it will be limited to Europe.

If yiu hear a loud boom followed by a bright flash then it is a world war. Remember to duck and cover.

 

[barbos]

In any case, that is likely to drive the unconquered parts of Ukraine much closer to NATO, and Sweden and Finland may end up joining that alliance.

Do you know what I think really happened? US "diplomats" pressured these countries to say that.

That's laughable. You could make a case that Ukraine, who is no desperately depending on support from US, could be pressured to make pro-NATO statements, there is the counterpoint that due to Putin's warmongering, NATO is really now the only option for them. But to say the same about Sweden or Finland is just beyond the parody horizon. Neither of those countries has said they will join NATO, but the public opinion in both has shifted and it's becoming a talking point. Not due to US pressure, but because of Russia's belligerence.

Public is generally stupid. And your own president sent Ukraine a message just a couple of days ago.

And you are really naive if you think US does not pressure their EU partners.
They totally do, they pressure Germany, they pressure Finland and they pressure Sweden. They admit that themselves.

No, that's just normal diplomacy. Look at how long the US has tried to convince Germany to halt Nord Stream 2. That didn't happen. The US just doesn't have that kind of leverage over Germany. Putin was able to achieve in a day what the US couldn't do in a decade.

Neither Sweden or Finland are making their statements about NATO or Ukraine in cahoots with US state department. They're looking out for their own interests first, just like most nations.

First of all, I was talking about Finland and Sweden sending messages to Ukrainians "on behalf" of Russia. Yes it was in your own interest and it was against US interests.
So yeah, countries have different interests, not always aligned with Fiona Hill interests. That's why Fiona Hill sometimes use light or heavy "diplomacy" to align Finland's interests with hers.



And why do you keep avoiding discussing a post about Saakashvili you "liked"
Does someone keep you hostage?

 

[Copernicus]

There is a thesis propounded by many that NATO expansion to the east after the collapse of the Soviet Union was a mistake. This thesis was shared by George Kennan, one of the architects of NATO, who said in the late 90s, when the expansion was taking place, that it was a mistake, that NATO was founded purely as a bulwark against Soviet aggression in Western Europe and with the demise of the Soviets, it had lost is reason for existence and certainly had no reason to expand. I have always had some sympathy for this argument.

The Soviet Union ceased to exist, the change in ownership didn't change the basic reason for the existence of NATO. The threat remained.

The threat appeared to lose its focus when the USSR collapsed in the 90s, however. The threat is very clear now, and I have no doubt that Kennan would acknowledge that today, if he were alive. The fact is that NATO didn't move into Eastern Europe. Eastern Europe moved into NATO.

Back in the 90s, US companies were investing heavily in Russia. I know that Boeing had a good relationship with Russia, because I visited the Boeing Russia headquarters in 1997. It was very amusing to me, because I was one of the few Americans in the office and the only one who actually spoke Russian. There was a "No Smoking" sign on the door of the restroom, which must have been a culture shock for the Russians there trying to get used to working for an American company. One of them brought me a bunch of inventory tags that they had been given and asked me what they were for. It turns out that none of the computers in the office had any inventory tags on them, which was a real shock to me. And many of them were suspicious that they were not being treated as full employees, because an American company just wouldn't treat Russians fairly. In fact, the company was very happy with Boeing Russia and transferred a lot of work to them. After Putin was elected and started his anti-Western campaign, the relationship eventually did sour and fall apart. But until then, Boeing worked closely with its Russian organization.

 

[SLD]

https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-1120w,f_auto,q_auto:best/rockcms/2022-02/220224-ukraine-russia-protests-01-88a08b.jpg

A photo of truly brave Russians. Barbos, you should join them. Because not a damn thing you’ve said justifies invading another sovereign nation. Nothing. Even if it was true. Which isn’t much.

 

[ZiprHead]

Putin Spokesman's Daughter Posted, Then Deleted, Anti-War Message

Prominent Russians spoke out against the president's invasion of Ukraine, while hundreds of anti-war demonstrators were arrested in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Copernicus]

Well, Poland invaded Czechoslovakia, why don't we discuss that now?

No it didn't. The Polish military was part of the Soviet-dominated Warsaw Pact, so Poland was used by the Soviet Union to bring Czechoslovakia to heel during the  Prague Spring mass protests and attempts at political liberalization. The Soviet Union ordered three Warsaw Pact nations to send troops into Czechoslovakia--Poland, Hungary, and Bulgaria--along with its own Red Army troops to try to give the impression of some kind of bloc solidarity. Czechs tore down street signs and painted swastikas on Soviet tanks. I learned later that quite a few Soviet troops suffered "mental breakdowns" after that. They didn't expect to be called fascists and associated with Nazis. The Communist governments in those countries all eventually got replaced by democracies.

 

[Elixir]

Well, Poland invaded Czechoslovakia, why don't we discuss that now?

No it didn't. The Polish military was part of the Soviet-dominated Warsaw Pact, so Poland was used by the Soviet Union to bring Czechoslovakia to heel during the  Prague Spring mass protests and attempts at political liberalization. The Soviet Union ordered three Warsaw Pact nations to send troops into Czechoslovakia--Poland, Hungary, and Bulgaria--along with its own Red Army troops to try to give the impression of some kind of bloc solidarity. The Communist governments in those countries all eventually got replaced by democracies.

Yeah, but thanks for discussing it. At least you’re not outlining realities that make Barbos uncomfortable.

 

[Copernicus]

Putin Spokesman's Daughter Posted, Then Deleted, Anti-War Message

Prominent Russians spoke out against the president's invasion of Ukraine, while hundreds of anti-war demonstrators were arrested in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

www.newsweek.com

I read about this. A number of prominent Russian intellectuals and famous personalities have come out against the war. I believe that Yeltsin's daughter was another one.

 

[barbos]

But Russia having a larger population than the US but a smaller GDP than Canada is an abject failure for a country that was once a technological leader.

Sorry, I had to come out from my exile to quote this for history.

These are the people I am trying to educate. This planet is doomed.
I don't have good theories on that, I just don't.

Nothing like quoting to say nothing.

You still don't get it?????
:double facepalm:

Barbos isn't explaining what the problem is. Crazyfingers made a mistake in saying that Russia has a larger population than the US. The Russian population is less than half (144 million) of the US (330 million). Canada has a much smaller population (38 million). So crazyfinger's overall point about Russia's GDP (whichever number one uses for that) is still correct. BTW, let's not forget that a large portion of the Russian economy is fueled by criminal black market transactions.

I was going from memory. I was probably going on what I remember when it was still the USSR.

I am tired of you living in the 80s. Go back to watching TV, Ronald Raygun is talking there, something about Evil Empire.

 

[barbos]

Putin Spokesman's Daughter Posted, Then Deleted, Anti-War Message

Prominent Russians spoke out against the president's invasion of Ukraine, while hundreds of anti-war demonstrators were arrested in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

www.newsweek.com

I am glad you now know he has a daughter.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

 

[Patooka]

That's just redicullous. NATO is a defensive alliance to curb Russian aggression. If

I don't believe that for a second. 140 millions don't agree either.
What are you gonna do?

I'm going to reiterate my support for reality instead.

 

[crazyfingers]

I am tired of you living in the 80s. Go back to watching TV, Ronald Raygun is talking there, something about Evil Empire.

Do you think I care what you think? You said you were leaving this thread. Why are you still here?

 

[Toni]

Putin Spokesman's Daughter Posted, Then Deleted, Anti-War Message

Prominent Russians spoke out against the president's invasion of Ukraine, while hundreds of anti-war demonstrators were arrested in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

www.newsweek.com

I am glad you now know he has a daughter.

I hope she’s safe and doesn’t fall out if any windows or drink any contaminated drinks.

 

[Jayjay]

The invasion has begun. Putin has demanded military forces of Ukraine at Kyiv surrender. Kyiv is some 300 miles from the Dombass breakaway republic. This is an act of war on an independent nation that in no way can threaten Russia in any major way. Putin is now a war criminal. It is obvious Pootie saw his chance to make a land grab slipping through his fingers and decided to act and to hell with the consequences. February 23, 2022. A day of infamy.

The real war criminals are the US media.

This video and the person being interviewed are also "US media". Meanwhle in Russia, there is no such second opinion. Based on Russian news there is hardly any war going on, just a minor skirmish against nazis and terrorists.

Note that the journalist bein interviewed also thinks Putin is to blame for the war, despite her having swallowed some of the lies of Putin's propaganda, such as the presence of NATO troops in Ukraine or that there was ever a binding promise not to accept Eastern European countries to NATO.

 

[barbos]

The invasion has begun. Putin has demanded military forces of Ukraine at Kyiv surrender. Kyiv is some 300 miles from the Dombass breakaway republic. This is an act of war on an independent nation that in no way can threaten Russia in any major way. Putin is now a war criminal. It is obvious Pootie saw his chance to make a land grab slipping through his fingers and decided to act and to hell with the consequences. February 23, 2022. A day of infamy.

The real war criminals are the US media.

This video and the person being interviewed are also "US media". Meanwhle in Russia, there is no such second opinion. Based on Russian news there is hardly any war going on, just a minor skirmish against nazis and terrorists.

She is not mainstream media and is complaining about MSM. Do you agree with her or don't? Sure, there are some good journalists in US. I just don't see them on TV. There was/is a guy in White House pool who is a real "dick" to administration and If I remember correctly he did ask questions about Georgia. But I did not see him on TV.
He is alone in that WH pool. The rest is MSM scam who support every word coming out of the administration.



I don't care about situation with media in Russia. Russia is irrelevant as far as world wide media concerned. World wide media is run by US and to a lesser degree Europe.

Are you going comment on Saakashvili post? I am not getting off of you on that.
You're going to comment on that, whether CIA agent holds you at gun point or not.