How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[steve_bank]

I expect Barbos was educated in the old Soviet Union as was Putin.

 

[Elixir]

I expect Barbos was educated indoctrinated in the old Soviet Union as was Putin.

FIFY

 

[ZiprHead]

Dude, you are annoying. I have proven beyond any doubt that Ukraine is effectively run by nazis. Deal with it.

Really? When was this???

 

[laughing dog]

If Russia fears Nato so much, why constantly bully Ukraine? It's Russia that is pushing Ukraine towards the west. Why do bullies always feel that they are the victim?

NATO!=West. Russia was not happy about Ukraine trying to get to EU, mainly because it would cost Russia money. But Russia did nothing to stop it. It's NATO.
Bully here is US. You are bullying everybody including Ukraine.

Russia are just trying to stop poor and penniless Ukraine from becoming an empire.

Yes, at Russia's expense.

What hallunigens are you on?

 

[ZiprHead]

Kharkiv City Hall Bombing

 

[Gospel]

Let me guess, the Ukrainian military bombed their own building to blame it on Russia right barbos? IMO that would be overkill being that the international community has already condemned the Russian invasion. Maybe Ukrainians don't think they condemned it enough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[lpetrich]

Samuel Ramani on Twitter: "Vladimir Putin has killed Swedish, Swiss and Finnish neutrality in one day" / Twitter
but
Oliver Hegglin on Twitter: "@SamRamani2 Swiss Neutrality was not violated with our measures - this was explained by our federal government when announcing measures today. (link)" / Twitter


Trevor McArdle on Twitter: "@SamRamani2 @dpanikkar And militarised Germany" / Twitter
then
Samuel Ramani on Twitter: "Vladimir Putin has killed Swedish neutrality and German pacifism in a single weekend" / Twitter


Juhani Kaukoranta on Twitter: "@SamRamani2 And made very sharp impression on Finnish pubic opinion:
In Finland, 53% support joining NATO, 28% oppose, 19% insecure. This is the first time there have been more than half of the supporters.
The study was conducted by the Finnish State Broadcasting Corporation YLE" / Twitter


Kalle S. Norri on Twitter: "@SamRamani2 We tried to kill the Finlandisierung by ourselves for decades. He did that for us in one weekend." / Twitter
Finlandization - a dreaded fate during the Cold War, of never wanting to displease the Soviet Union

 

[Elixir]

Russia are just trying to stop poor and penniless Ukraine from becoming an empire.

I think that's right, in a way. Ukraine has lots of arable land and huge mineral resources; abundant reserves of coal, iron ore, natural gas, titanium, nickel, magnesium etc.
They could have quite an affluent society if only Pootey and his corrupt cronies would leave it alone. But that would make the Russian government look just as stupid, corrupt and heedless of the concerns of Russians as it actually is. So... easy! Bomb the holy fuck out of the whole country, reduce it to rubble and the golden domes of the Kremlin will be lookin' pretty good.

 

[SLD]

I expect Barbos was educated in the old Soviet Union as was Putin.

Maybe he is Putin!

 

[steve_bank]

I expect Barbos was educated in the old Soviet Union as was Putin.

Maybe he is Putin!

You never know. Trump called people using a false name to praise himself.

 

[Copernicus]

The isolation of Russia has snowballed to the point where the money that barbos thinks Ukraine owes Russia is going to seem like pocket change. The ruble is now barely worth a US penny.

World's largest container lines suspend shipping to Russia​

Russia seeks to halt investor stampede as sanctions hammer economy​

Western envoys, allies walk out on Lavrov speech to UN rights forum​

President Biden was right to warn Putin that he faced sanctions the likes of which he had never faced before, if he invaded Ukraine. I don't think even he realized how bad it would get.

 

[pood]

One single article completely annihilates Barbos’s ludicrous claims about Nazis in Ukraine.

 

[lpetrich]

Наступление России и нового мира - РИА Новости, 26.02.2022 - The offensive of Russia and the new world - RIA Novosti (Google Translate)

I ran some of the text through Google Translate, and it described at length about how Ukraine is to be made Russian.

Adam Lee on Twitter: "Good thread about how some American progressives who grew up - rightfully! - opposing U.S. wars of imperialism have overlearned the lesson and are now going astray in their response to Ukraine." / Twitter
noting
Ibrahim al-Assil إبراهيم الأصيل on Twitter: "
1/13
American progressives are facing an intellectual dilemma. ..." / Twitter

1/13
American progressives are facing an intellectual dilemma. For years, they focused on criticizing US foreign policy. In part because of the anti-capitalism perspective, but also because they, undeliberately, bought into both imperialism & American-supremacy. I'll explain:

American-progressive millennials never experienced a threat from another great-power. They grew up in an American-dominated global scene. Their world views were shaped under Bush (41), Clinton, and Bush (43), where the US almost did whatever it wanted. The main global event for progressive millennials was the invasion of Iraq. While they spent their adult life criticizing it, it left them with a deep sense of guilt and shame. They became very introspective and self-critical, but that is not the full picture. The sense of guilt, coupled with a distorted view of global politics where the US is always secure and dominant, resulted in progressive millennials buying into two notions they loath: American supremacy and tolerating imperialism as long as it's anti-US dominance.

Putin's Russia has been one of the most imperial forces in the world, but it's anti-American dominance too. For a long time progressives didn't feel threatened and they focused more on the ani-American side of Putin and widely ignored his imperial ambitions. Same with Iran.

Progressives' stances have been absent on big issues like the annexation of Crimea, Assad's war crimes, and Iran's interventionism. The focus was on where they saw the US policy being wrong, like Yemen, Israel/Palestine, and Cuba. They ended up being where they exactly didn't want to be: American-centered. Many progressives ignored horrible and unprecedented human suffering caused by Russia (Syria) and Iran (Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Lebanon) because there was nothing there to criticize the US for.

Progressives advocated for isolationism. A view they share with Trump & Rand Paul (clearly for different reasons). Another mistake entrenched in their views was depriving non-Americans of their agency in global events & interpreting them as always being American influenced: They saw the war in Syria as a pure foreign power intervention, ignoring the main role of Assad and how much Syrians didn't want to live under him no matter what. In Ukraine, many argue that it was the west's fault ignoring that Ukrainians made their decision to look west. Some say it's the West's fault because Ukraine is within Russia's sphere of influence. Okay, let's talk about that: sphere of influence is the claim by a state to exclusive or predominant control over a foreign area or territory. In other words: imperialism.

Looking at Ukraine as a country where Putin has the right to dictate its future is the most imperial notion in the 21st century. Ukrainians made THEIR democratic decision to ally with the west because THEY found that in their economic and national security interests.

Progressive millennials and gen Z are facing a big intellectual challenge. They should find a way to reconcile their world views to be aligned with their inclusive values of democracy, freedom, and self-determination, and not only when it overlaps with criticizing the US. This thread doesn't claim to offer the full picture. It's just one piece of a complicated puzzle. It aims to discuss how geopolitics and post-cold-war American dominance shaped progressive-millennials world views.

 

[Copernicus]

In this phase of the Russian invasion, they are demolishing civilian targets, thinking perhaps that it will weaken the will of the Ukrainian population to resist.

Zelensky's powerful speech causes translator to choke up​

 

[Elixir]

they are demolishing civilian targets, thinking perhaps that it will weaken the will of the Ukrainian population to resist.

Yeah that always works. The pointless cruelty endears you to them, while the wanton destruction garners endless gratitude. Makes them want to apologize to you and go home.
I’m starting to think Pootey really has parted ways with his marbles.

 

[pood]

I’m reading a Ukrainian scholar’s book about the history of Ukraine, a country that Barbos and Putin claimed never existed. It is speaking of the Scythians, early inhabitants of Ukraine who, the book says, are believed to be the ancestors of the Slavs. In 513 B.C. Darius led a huge Persian army to invade Ukraine. The outnumbered Scythians forced him and his army into a “humiliating retreat.” Well, they say history doesn’t repeat but it does rhyme.

 

[Tigers!]

Let me guess, the Ukrainian military bombed their own building to blame it on Russia right barbos? IMO that would be overkill being that the international community has already condemned the Russian invasion. Maybe Ukrainians don't think they condemned it enough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Now, Now.
I am sure Barbos can find someone who says the building needed renovation anyway.

 

[Politesse]

Ukraine has officially petitioned to join the European Union.

The EU will get back to them in a few years, I'm sure. Or decades, you know, something along those lines. Pretty quickly, just not too quickly. Best to make sure the cookie crumbles in the right direction, as it were.

 

[pood]

Kievan Rus emerged in the 6th century A.D., the book says, further saying that these people were Slavs and the “direct ancestors” of Ukraine’s current population. Hm, no sign of Russia/Moscow at this time. So we see Ukraine precedes Russia/Moscow on the world stage. Too bad so sad for Vlad and Barbos! Maybe modern Russia should agree to being absorbed into Ukraine?

 

[ZiprHead]