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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

You understand that what you so adorably call "NATO aggression" is countries with sovereign borders knowingly and willingly joining NATO because of illegal Russian aggression, right?

Right? You can check the dates if you want. I'll even give you a hint - how many countries wanted to join NATO after Russia invaded Chechnya not once but twice?
You mean Russia should have allowed Chechnya to secede? Would you mind if Texas were to secede from US or Quebec from Canada?
As someone who's not nationalistic because it's moronic, no I don't really give a fuck if Texas would secede. Especially if the alternative would be a civil war (and in this case both entities would be nuclear armed).
 
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Ukrainian forces should just march on Moscow and see what happens. The last time that renegade with his mercenaries began to march on Moscow, Adolf Putin fled north to St. Petersburg with his tail between his legs like the scared kitten he actually is. Then the renegade inexplicably called off the March. If Ukraine were to announce it was aiming right at Moscow the whole demoralized Russian armed forces and indeed the whole government might fold like a cheap tent.
They don't have the logistics to do that.

Not that I think they are marching to Moscow but consider, what stopped Prigozhin? I wonder if Ukrainian forces find some level of support within Russia. I'd be bringing extra small arms just in case.

This is a hell of a morale boost for Ukraine and maybe even a good recruitment tool. It may press the US to ease up on restrictions on use of weapons.

How long Ukrainian forces can maintain this breech into Russia (protect their flanks) should have a similar effect when they stopped Russia's march toward Kyiv. If they hold the territory, it will cause the west to take another look at Ukraine's capabilities and Russia's limitations. If they can hold this, it really looks bad for Russia.
 
Ukrainian forces should just march on Moscow and see what happens. The last time that renegade with his mercenaries began to march on Moscow, Adolf Putin fled north to St. Petersburg with his tail between his legs like the scared kitten he actually is. Then the renegade inexplicably called off the March. If Ukraine were to announce it was aiming right at Moscow the whole demoralized Russian armed forces and indeed the whole government might fold like a cheap tent.
They don't have the logistics to do that.

Not that I think they are marching to Moscow but consider, what stopped Prigozhin?

Exactly. Putin certainly took it seriously — it was reported that he fled Moscow for St. Petersburg.

Loren is right about logistics, but the logistics picture improves greatly if large numbers of Russian soldiers defect and join Ukraine for a march on Moscow.
 
You mean Russia should have allowed Chechnya to secede?
I wouldn’t mind it one bit. In fact I advocate it, for Texas and the rest of the red states. ETA: accidentally edited out your quote asking would the U.S. mind if Texas seceded.
 
Would you mind if Texas were to secede from US
Speaking for myself,
I'd love to see a real discussion amongst Texans about Texit. If a large majority decided that they would prefer not to be US citizens, and understood what that meant in practical terms, the rest of us would be better off without them.
I'd support Texit.

Texas is a net drain on the federal government budget. Texas is home to many of the Deplorables who support Trump and people like him. I'd be fine with it leaving the Union.
Reminds me of the Brexiteers who learned the hard way that leaving the EU wasn't the good thing that a bunch of politicians claimed it was as long as it got them elected.
Tom
 
Texit? No more money for Social Security, Medicare, or department of education, infrastructor projects. et al. Passports and visa to visit any other state. No emergency help in case of hurricanes, tornadoes,or massive fires. No federally support flood insurance. Texas would suffer. The stupids who honk for Texit are ignorant and deserve that disaster that would befall them. Sane people with important talents and skills would soon be leaving for more sane states.
 
Texit? No more money for Social Security, Medicare, or department of education, infrastructor projects. et al. Passports and visa to visit any other state. No emergency help in case of hurricanes, tornadoes,or massive fires. No federally support flood insurance. Texas would suffer. The stupids who honk for Texit are ignorant and deserve that disaster that would befall them. Sane people with important talents and skills would soon be leaving for more sane states.
They would effectively become Mexicans, except Mexican people don't like them either.

Imagine explaining that their SSI checks were being used to pay off the Texan share of the federal debt and they needed to get a passport to visit their family in New Mexico. Because they left the Union.

I totally want a state wide discussion about what Texit would mean, and why some people advocate for it, and exactly who is advocating for Texit.
Tom
 
I’d vote for “Texit”.
That will put Dems firmly in charge of the US, and then we can invade and subjugate the fuckers.
 
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I’d vote for “Texit”.
That will put Dems firmly in charge of the US, and then we can invade and subjugate the fuckers.
I'd be more inclined to wait until they come crawling back.
No invasion. No subjugation.

But also, the Texans who opposed Texit deserve a fair shake. We will allow them into our country on the same terms we allow anyone else. Get papers or you're an illegal invader/immigrant.
Tom
 
You understand that what you so adorably call "NATO aggression" is countries with sovereign borders knowingly and willingly joining NATO because of illegal Russian aggression, right?

Right? You can check the dates if you want. I'll even give you a hint - how many countries wanted to join NATO after Russia invaded Chechnya not once but twice?
You mean Russia should have allowed Chechnya to secede? Would you mind if Texas were to secede from US or Quebec from Canada?
If they knowingly and willingly join NATO, then Russia would consider them to belong to the enemy group. That may have consequences later.
Gotta admit, I'm a bit surprised about your lack of empathy of an indigenous people attempting to overthrow the unjust rule of their imperialist oppressors. I just thought you might be more sympathetic for some reason...
 
The breakup of Yugoslavia was inevitable, thirty years before NATO was even thought of.
Then how come it lasted for 35 years.
35 years?

Yugoslavia lasted from it's foolhardy inception in 1918 (for the first ten years under the unwieldy name "The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes", before "Yugoslavia" was adopted to the great relief of teachers of Balkan geography everywhere), until its eventual and inevitable collapse in 1992.

The Serbs not only started WWI; They won it*. And by doing so, they won the ability to expand the sovereignty of the Serbian King to include what had previously been parts of the neighbouring empires (the Ottomans and Austro-Hungarians), who had lost the war and collapsed.

Serbian military strength allowed the Monarchy to hold together the new country by force, until the Nazis invaded in 1941; The Nazis sided with the Croats (and vice-versa), deepening the Serb-Croat enmity (an impressive feat, as it was already profound); But then the Nazis lost to the Soviets, and Russia once again provided the clout to hold a Serbian dominated Yugoslavia together, by their initial support of Tito, who, with both Soviet and Western backing, ruled the country with an iron fist - Indeed, Tito was so effective as a Communist dictator, that he was able to tell Stalin to go fuck himself, when the USSR tried to consolidate all of Eastern Europe as Soviet satellite states.

Throughout the existence of Yugoslavia, Croat resistance and revolution against Serbian rule was a constant threat. Croatia attempted several times to break away, notably in the early 1970s (the "Croat Spring"); But at that time, both sides in the Cold War were adamant in their desire to keep Yugoslavia unified and peaceful at all costs. Conflict in the Balkans started WWI, and there was a genuine and justifed fear that it could also start WWIII.

The death of Tito in 1980 was a major blow to Yugoslavia's fragile unity as a nation; The collapse of the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union was the last straw.

The country lasted just 74 years.

Where do you get "35 years" from?
NATO has its eyes everywhere. They don't miss an opportunity.
This sounds like wild conspiracist nonsense.
I don't blame them. We understand that very well.
That is why US issues regular reports about India on freedom of expression or religion, etc.
I am not sure what you are trying to get at here.

It seems that you view routine observations about the behaviour and attitudes of other nations, made by the USA, as some kind of evidence that NATO is a nefarious and shadowy organisation bent on the destruction of peace in Yugoslavia, for unstated reasons.

But that can't be what you actually think, because it would be an insane idea, based on a huge mess of counterfactuals and misunderstandings.

The USA is not NATO. Reports by nations about other nations are not remarkable. Yugoslavia never had any peace or unity to destroy, other than the peace that comes from ruthless supression of even a hint of dissent, by overwhelming use of force.

Nobody could have prevented the breakup of Yugoslavia, once the Cold War imperative to stamp out any hint of violence in the Balkans had gone away.








* With much assistance from their allied imperial powers, particularly Russia - the Russian Empire, unlike Serbia, did not survive to be victorious; But Russia and Serbia remained close allies even after the change in Russian dictatorial title from Tsar to First Secretary, due to their deep ethnic and cultural similarities.
 
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The fact that you haven't repulsed them yet says a lot. And you were rushing people to the defense--got a convoy smashed by a missile strike. That means you were not taking care to spread out because they were in a hurry.
You are extremely quick to jump on russian fuck-ups and veeeeery slow noticing ukrainian one.
What is your point anyway? lets assume you are right, so what?
Russia must die becasue Russia is weak and incompetent? Is that it?
 
The fact that you haven't repulsed them yet says a lot. And you were rushing people to the defense--got a convoy smashed by a missile strike. That means you were not taking care to spread out because they were in a hurry.
You are extremely quick to jump on russian fuck-ups and veeeeery slow noticing ukrainian one.
What is your point anyway? lets assume you are right, so what?
Russia must die becasue Russia is weak and incompetent? Is that it?

I do not like to see any soldiers die from any country. It's a god damn shame. But if I have to pick a side, I'll go with the defender. If Russian troops were to vacate Ukranian land, Ukraine would leave Russian land, and the war would be over.
 
The fact that you haven't repulsed them yet says a lot. And you were rushing people to the defense--got a convoy smashed by a missile strike. That means you were not taking care to spread out because they were in a hurry.
You are extremely quick to jump on russian fuck-ups and veeeeery slow noticing ukrainian one.
What is your point anyway? lets assume you are right, so what?
Russia must die becasue Russia is weak and incompetent? Is that it?

I do not like to see any soldiers die from any country. It's a god damn shame. But if I have to pick a side, I'll go with the defender. If Russian troops were to vacate Ukranian land, Ukraine would leave Russian land, and the war would be over.
Well, germans in 1944-1945 were defenders.
 
Ukrainian forces should just march on Moscow and see what happens. The last time that renegade with his mercenaries began to march on Moscow, Adolf Putin fled north to St. Petersburg with his tail between his legs like the scared kitten he actually is. Then the renegade inexplicably called off the March. If Ukraine were to announce it was aiming right at Moscow the whole demoralized Russian armed forces and indeed the whole government might fold like a cheap tent.
They don't have the logistics to do that.
So what? they don't have logistics for doing what they are doing now.
It's just a raid without any hope to hold any land. They know they would have to leave pretty soon.
 
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