Immigrant Concentration Camps

[TV and credit cards]

Well intentioned but...
Wayfair employees stand on principle so kids can continue to sleep on the floor.

 

[laughing dog]

You are incorrect because Trump adm is making the choice to incarcerate the parents.

I am not incorrect.

Yes you are.

The only other alternative is to just release 100,000s of mass migrants into the US. Which would be a terrible idea.

That is not the only other alternative - you are employing the fallacy of excluded middle and using exceptionally moronic extreme choices.

Sure, because people who drag their toddlers all the way from El Salvador just because they want to make enough money to build a house back home are totes legitimate asylum seekers who are afraid for their lives. You are not fooling anybody!

I realize that basic reasoning is difficult for you on this issue. Quoting one person out of 10,000 does not mean that all of them are economic migrants. No one claimed these immigrants are all asylum seekers.

I do not see why the Left is so resistant to admit that vast majority of the mass migrants at the border are just economic migrants who are using "asylum" as a convenient tactic to circumvent immigration laws. The level of denial approaches climate change denial.

Rational people usually make decisions on actual data not on opinion. You have no data on the proportion of migrants who are purely economic migrants. You are entitled to your bigotry-driven opinions and to wonder why rational people who are data-driven do not accept them. But no one is required to accept your claims of fact on your say so.

 

[Derec]

Yes you are.

Wrong.

That is not the only other alternative - you are employing the fallacy of excluded middle and using exceptionally moronic extreme choices.

What alternative do you believe exists?

I realize that basic reasoning is difficult for you on this issue.

You are speaking of yourself.

Quoting one person out of 10,000 does not mean that all of them are economic migrants.

This applies to most of the accounts I have read - and note that here the guy's mother admits that he was an economic migrant.
But by all means, show me some examples of people you believe are legit asylum seekers and also some reasons why you believe those people are the majority.
But you are missing a salient point here: even though the guy is clearly an economic migrant, he applied for asylum. That is what I have been saying - seeking asylum is a tactic, a ploy.
More from the article:

The Tamaulipas government official said the family arrived in Matamoros early Sunday and went to the U.S. Consulate to try to get a date to request asylum. The mother is 21 years old and the father was 25, he added.

They initially requested asylum at the consulate. That confirms that this is possible, contrary to what some others have been saying in this thread.
And despite the application, the family still decided to cross illegally - probably because they had no legitimate grounds.

And despite this family being bogus asylum seekers, the pro-migrant crowd is saying they should have been let into the country.

“It’s a horrifying image,” Maureen Meyer, a specialist on immigration at the Washington Office on Latin America, which advocates for human rights in the region, said of the photograph. “And I think it speaks so clearly to the real risks of these U.S. programs that are either returning people back to Mexico seeking asylum or in this case limiting how many people can enter the U.S. every day.”

This family had no right to try to enter US illegally. There is also no reason why they should have been allowed into the country. The girl's death is on her parents, not Trump, contrary to what β has been saying.

As his administration refuses to follow our laws -- preventing refugees from presenting themselves for asylum at our ports of entry -- they cause families to cross between ports, ensuring greater suffering & death. At the expense of our humanity, not to the benefit of our safety.

No, they were not "refugees". And they already "presented themselves" at the consulate. They still decided to cross illegally. That is on the parents. They should have stayed in El Salvador.

No one claimed these immigrants are all asylum seekers.

They are all seeking asylum, but most are doing so fraudulently.

Rational people usually make decisions on actual data not on opinion. You have no data on the proportion of migrants who are purely economic migrants. You are entitled to your bigotry-driven opinions and to wonder why rational people who are data-driven do not accept them. But no one is required to accept your claims of fact on your say so.

The fact is that anybody can claim asylum regardless of their real reason for trying to immigrate into US. Rational people do not ignore facts. Rational people do not accuse others of bigotry just because they challenge your rigid ideological positions. You are not a rational person.

Why do you think there is such a increase in asylum seekers other than that it is a new tactic adopted by those trying to come to US illegally? It's not like El Salvador is persecuting people. No, they want to build houses.

 

[Derec]

There is nothing wrong with a country protecting its borders*.

Tell that to the left wing of the Democratic party who just want to let everybody in.

But there might be plenty wrong with how a country chooses to do it.

I agree. We are way too lenient.

Mass incarceration of asylum seekers is one of the wrong ways,

It's not incarceration, it's detention. And it must be "mass" since the influx of mass migrants is also very much "mass". You either detain them, push them back to Mexico or let them into the country. I know the Left wants to let them all in.

as is separating children from their parents without probable cause

Separation has become necessary because of the court order. And because mass migrants started bringing children because the word spread that that makes it easier to get into the country. So blame the mass migrants themselves for dragging children as part of the ploy to manipulate immigration authorities.

to believe the parents might harm the child.

Nobody is claiming they "might harm the child". The separation is due to the court order on detentions.
That said, I do think it's clear these parents exposed the children to undue danger by dragging them on this trip to begin with.

Failing to provide adequate food, sanitary and personal hygiene supplies, medical care, competent child care (by adults) to unaccompanied minors, and access to legal representation to those who have been imprisoned, is also wrong.

I think detainees should get their basic needs met, but you must understand that the situation is made difficult by the sheer volume of mass migrants. And for that, the mass migrants are at fault.
Also, "progressives" like AOC are trying to block funds for the centers, which makes things worse.
As fr as taxpayer-funded legal representation, they are neither citizens nor residents of US. Just because you show up at the border, why should you be entitled to a free attorney? Even citizens can only get free lawyers for criminal matters, not administrative ones.

Migration isn't the problem.

This level of illegal mass migration is definitely a problem and needs to be ended.

Asylum laws aren't the problem.

Yes they are. They were conceived in a different world. People who wrote them did not conceive that they will be abused by economic migrants who overwhelm the system with bogus asylum claims when all they want to do is make money to build a house. Same thing is happening in Europe btw. Every economic migrant is claiming asylum. Both US and EU need to modernize our asylum laws.

The problem is out government is currently run by racists and bigoted asshats who think the proper response to an upswing in asylum seekers is to cut funding to the agencies tasked with handling the caseload, building a giant wall to keep the scary non-whites out, and brutality directed at migrants who show up at the border wanting to apply for admittance.

Wrong. Trying to limit people coming in just because they show up at the border is not "racist" or "bigoted". It's necessary to maintain the sovereignty of the United States.

*defending an illegal land grab is different

Like what for example?

 

[Arctish]

Derec, what's your method for identifying someone's primary reason for applying for asylum? How do you know the reason you discovered is the main one, not a secondary or tertiary consideration?

Do you have a system or are you just going with your gut feelings?

 

[Derec]

Derec, what's your method for identifying and separating someone's primary reason for applying for asylum from secondary or tertiary considerations? Do you have a system or are you just going with your gut feelings?

If all they talk is about jobs and building houses, it is pretty clear they are economic migrants.
What is your method? Just say that they should all be let in?

Also, the Obama administration screwed up by greatly expanding the grounds for asylum beyond what the asylum laws were designed to protect, i.e. persecution based on race, religion etc. Domestic or gang violence simply has nothing to do with legitimate asylum seeking.

We need to get a grip on the problem. By making it more difficult to get in, it will deter further migration. if you make it easier, you encourage more mass migration. That's basic logic.

 

[Arctish]

Derec, what's your method for identifying and separating someone's primary reason for applying for asylum from secondary or tertiary considerations? Do you have a system or are you just going with your gut feelings?

If all they talk is about jobs and building houses, it is pretty clear they are economic migrants.

Or they're optimistic about their prospects if/when asylum is granted.

What is your method?

I don't have one. I haven't done any investigations myself, and I don't think you have either. I think you're guessing.

 

[Derec]

Or they're optimistic about their prospects if/when asylum is granted.

If they are so persecuted back home, why do they want to build houses there? Makes no sense.

I don't have one. I haven't done any investigations myself, and I don't think you have either. I think you're guessing.

What I want is to end the deluge of mass migrants coming in. The "solutions" the Left is proposing - like ending detentions and letting them all in or expanding grounds for asylum (Toni even wants to declare economic migration as "asylum seeking" outright) would keep it going and even accelerate it.

Again, asylum laws have been written not foreseeing what we are seeing here. Therefore, they must be reformed or they will continue to be abused by economic migrants like Óscar Alberto Martínez Ramírez.

 

[Arctish]

Or they're optimistic about their prospects if/when asylum is granted.

If they are so persecuted back home, why do they want to build houses there? Makes no sense.

It depends on where the house is located, doesn't it? A nice little house in a prosperous town near the Capitol is a lot safer than a house adjacent to the illicit coca plantations, or where traffickers kidnap children to supply the brothels, or where indigenous people are murdered for getting in the way of illegal logging operations.

I don't have one. I haven't done any investigations myself, and I don't think you have either. I think you're guessing.

What I want is to end the deluge of mass migrants coming in. The "solutions" the Left is proposing - like ending detentions and letting them all in or expanding grounds for asylum (Toni even wants to declare economic migration as "asylum seeking" outright) would keep it going and even accelerate it.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

Migration isn't going to stop just because you don't like it. People feeling endangered or oppressed are going to seek asylum in places where they believe they can be safe and prosperous. Right now, the US is at or near the top of that list. We're going to have migrants and asylum seekers show up at our borders, and we need to do our best in addressing the issue, not our worst.

Why aren't there more judges and investigators being assigned to work the asylum applications? Why weren't there child care providers and facilities already in place before children were separated from their families? Why was the government unprepared to house the people it chose to imprison indefinitely? Why is there no accountability for the lack of adequate food, supplies, medical care, and proper treatment of people in custody?

And why not allow asylum seekers to live in semi-supervised housing, get jobs, and become self sufficient while their applications are being processed? What purpose does it serve to treat people like criminals for exercising their rights under international law and the Constitution?

I think the answer to those questions is bigotry and xenophobia, with a heaping helping of I've Got Mine, So Fuck 'Em. And that's appalling. I want better for my country than to be guided by assholes and misanthropes like Trump.

 

[blastula]

[blastula's manipulative and silly cartoon]

And accurate.

Are you proposing that US must take in everybody who shows up at the border or else it's "ethnic cleansing" or somehow similar to Nazis?
What's wrong with a country protecting its borders?

I expect the US to treat people in its custody humanely, and not like an "infestation" as in Trump's nazispeak.

 

[angelo]

Neither is closing the border illegal.

Yes, it is. We are obligated by international treaty to accept asylum applicants. Treaties have the force of law.

The numbers involved shows that this is far from just a few hundred people seeking asylum. This is an invasion, and every nation on Earth has a right to defend it's border from invasion!

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

access to legal representation to those who have been imprisoned is also wrong.

You keep going back and forth on that. Are they free to go back home or not? If they are allowed to leave, they are not imprisoned.

I agree that taking their kids away is pretty sick. Maybe you could make a case for kidnapping.

I also agree that more judges and clerks and other resources should be brought forward, including security measures. The Wall isn't fundamentally bad idea. It's just impractical and wasteful.

Migration isn't the problem. Asylum laws aren't the problem. The problem is out government is currently run by racists and bigoted asshats who think the proper response to an upswing in asylum seekers is to cut funding to the agencies tasked with handling the caseload, building a giant wall to keep the scary non-whites out, and brutality directed at migrants who show up at the border wanting to apply for admittance.

These are not mutually exclusive.

You DO need a good system to determine who is fraudulently claiming refugee status. You should also be letting in more economic migrants, and processing applications at a much faster rate, while these economic migrants remain in their countries of origin.

Encouraging people to bring their kids and falsely apply indeed does encourage more of it So would your proposal of letting anyone who applies just come into the country, get jobs, etc.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Here is a weird idea that will piss off both the Democrats and Conservatives, so could never happen:

You have some Americans who have spent their entire lives there being unproductive and contributing nothing to society, even taking away from it with crimes etc. Why not exile them to make room for some El Salvadorians, who probably have a better work ethic? Why should place of birth entitle some to lives of luxury and others to lives of suffering, regardless of character and work ethic? Wouldn't this be more fair? Wouldn't the country be better off too?

Yes, I'm joking. But boy wouldn't this piss off everybody. I like this proposal because answering it would force each side to acknowledge the concerns of the other.

 

[ZiprHead]

Many asylum-seekers in the United States are from Latin America, especially the Northern Triangle region of Central America—El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala.6 They are fleeing because their home countries continue to be plagued with violence—much of it gang-related—as well as economic and political instability. Among those fleeing, many are women; children who may be unaccompanied or traveling with a parent; and LGBTQ people.7 Turning these individuals and families back or actively deporting them to their home countries—sometimes after first criminally prosecuting them and sentencing them to time in U.S. federal prison—may mean returning them to places where they may face persecution, displacement, and, in some cases, even death.8

Women and children, especially girls, as well as LGBTQ people continue to face high levels of severe and persistent danger from gender-based violence in the Northern Triangle countries. According to data released by the Small Arms Survey, El Salvador and Honduras were among the 10 countries not currently involved in armed conflict with the highest rates of femicide—the murder of women—in 2016.14 While the 2017 statistics show a slight decrease in that rate for both countries, the number of female homicides is still very high.15 For example, El Salvador reported 469 femicides in 2017—down from 524 in 2016—but this means that on average, more than nine women and/or girls were killed every week in 2017.16 Women and children in the Northern Triangle region also face brutal physical and sexual violence at the hands of gang members and other individuals.17 Additionally, LGBTQ people are also vulnerable to similar abuses and threats in these countries.18 Often, survivors do not have any avenues to pursue justice, because there is a high level of impunity and lack of protections in these countries.19 Stories shared by women, children, and LGBTQ people traveling in the caravan cited sexual abuse, severe stress and fear, domestic violence, and rape as reasons for fleeing their countries.20 These include Nelda, a teenager who left Honduras with her mother and little sister to escape her sexually abusive uncle, a man with gang ties. He threatened to kill them if they did not withdraw their police report against him.21

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/immigration/reports/2018/06/01/451474/still-refugees-people-continue-flee-violence-latin-american-countries/

 

[lpetrich]

This is bizarre. To The Associated Press on Twitter: "Government moves most of the children out of a Texas Border Patrol station after AP report that more than 300 children were held there in perilous conditions. Thirty children remain at the facility. https://t.co/SBvpipwDZj" / Twitter

A Religious-Right guy responded
Russell Moore on Twitter: "The reports of the conditions for migrant children at the border should shock all of our consciences. Those created in the image of God should be treated with dignity and compassion, especially those seeking refuge from violence back home. We can do better than this. https://t.co/Cv3AmJgypn" / Twitter

Then Jerry Falwell's son responded
Jerry Falwell on Twitter: "@drmoore Who are you @drmoore ? Have you ever made a payroll? Have you ever built an organization of any type from scratch? What gives you authority to speak on any issue? I’m being serious. You’re nothing but an employee- a bureaucrat." / Twitter

He succeeded his father, TV evangelist Jerry Falwell, as head of "Liberty University".

Twitter Mocks Falwell Jr.'s Bizarre Outrage Over Compassion for Kids at Border Facilities: 'Did Jesus Ever Meet a Payroll?'
Jerry Falwell Jr. Flips Out On Christian Trump Critic With Least Biblical Line Ever | HuffPost

 

[ideologyhunter]

Right -- what a Christian challenge to issue as an opening to a debate on morality -- Have you ever made a payroll... And if not, 'what gives you authority to speak on any issue?' I've never been so glad I'm not in Jerry Jr.'s parade (he apparently has total authority to speak on any issue, as provided by Jesus of Nazareth.)

 

[Keith&Co.]

Right -- what a Christian challenge to issue as an opening to a debate on morality -- Have you ever made a payroll... And if not, 'what gives you authority to speak on any issue?' I've never been so glad I'm not in Jerry Jr.'s parade (he apparently has total authority to speak on any issue, as provided by Jesus of Nazareth.)

No, no, I can see his point. If you're going to talk about "the image of God" and "dignity and compassion" you need to be able to show that you're budgeted for dignity and compassion.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This is bizarre. To The Associated Press on Twitter: "Government moves most of the children out of a Texas Border Patrol station after AP report that more than 300 children were held there in perilous conditions. Thirty children remain at the facility. https://t.co/SBvpipwDZj" / Twitter

A Religious-Right guy responded
Russell Moore on Twitter: "The reports of the conditions for migrant children at the border should shock all of our consciences. Those created in the image of God should be treated with dignity and compassion, especially those seeking refuge from violence back home. We can do better than this. https://t.co/Cv3AmJgypn" / Twitter

Then Jerry Falwell's son responded
Jerry Falwell on Twitter: "@drmoore Who are you @drmoore ? Have you ever made a payroll? Have you ever built an organization of any type from scratch? What gives you authority to speak on any issue? I’m being serious. You’re nothing but an employee- a bureaucrat." / Twitter

He succeeded his father, TV evangelist Jerry Falwell, as head of "Liberty University".

Twitter Mocks Falwell Jr.'s Bizarre Outrage Over Compassion for Kids at Border Facilities: 'Did Jesus Ever Meet a Payroll?'
Jerry Falwell Jr. Flips Out On Christian Trump Critic With Least Biblical Line Ever | HuffPost

I think this is the difference between being a Christian and being a Christian™.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Neither is closing the border illegal.

Yes, it is. We are obligated by international treaty to accept asylum applicants. Treaties have the force of law.

The numbers involved shows that this is far from just a few hundred people seeking asylum. This is an invasion, and every nation on Earth has a right to defend it's border from invasion!

Just a couple stats for notable invasions.

German Invasion of Poland: 1,500,000
Syrians refugees in Jordan: 600,000+
Devastating US Border Crisis: Tens of thousands over a few years

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The separation policy was due to a court order. It's not something Trump administration came up with for the evulz.

You are incorrect because Trump adm is making the choice to incarcerate the parents.

Most of these "asylum seekers" are frauulent....

You confuse your biased opinions with fact.

We are literally storing children in warehouses... and the response is "our hands are tied" (not even true) and not, "we need to do something immediately about this because the idea of storing children in warehouses is wrong!" I understand that we are past capacity to be able to house these children, but this is the United States... we are supposed to be able to solve problems efficiently and with compassion.

People like Derec seem to view these children as the spawn of mongrels, not even worth a shred of dignity. That these people are beneath any reasonable threshold of empathy. It really is a shame Derec was allowed into the US, we already had enough people like that without him.