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January 6 Hearings Live

Toni said:
I don’t think that the guy from Ohio as less intelligent but I do think that he hasn’t seen much that gives him hope his kids will have a better life, or that he is valued as a citizen.
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He had a good job, was a manager at a company that made stuff (cabinets), had friends, family and most of the things that people say they want. As he said, just a normal family man. I think he had what 99+% of all humans on this planet WISH they had.

But someone convinced him that he deserved more, and that the "more" he deserved was being stolen from him.
IOW, Trump tapped into his primal greed like he did/does to so many others. Holds himself up as an example - "All you have to do is be totally strong, and fight for what you deserve like I do." Not mentioned of course, is how helpful it is to first inherit $400,000,000 or so to help you "fight".
I do feel sorry for him, but also feel like he should be held up as an example of what happens to you if you are a trumpsucker. It was good IMO to hear about his life after 1/6. It would make a classic country song, losing his job and his former life... don't know about his dog but that would be a good add if he lost that too.
It's sad, but I don't hold him harmless - far from it.

We have got to give them space to do that.
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I don't think we owe them "space" or anything else. They need to "summon the courage to do the right thing", to borrow a phrase from their mango model. If they won't or don't, they fucking DESERVE to lose it all.
 
Toni said:
Nobody likes it when they are being looked down upon.
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Very true. Best way to avoid that is to not go so low as to subjugate yourself to an obvious conman.

And that's what a lot of urbanites and so called progressives do with regards to people who are in small towns, rural areas, manufacturing.
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I don't feel like I do that much (having had to claw myself up to where I was in a small town, doing manufacturing), but to the extent that I do I know I have work to do on myself.

Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant.
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I feel like your "believe it or not" is meant to imply that I don't believe it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant. That is far from the case. In fact I get shit from some of my online lib'rul friends for coming to the defense of people I actually know IRL to be good people, who have fallen into the Trump trap.
But I can simultaneously chide my other friends for condemning my trumper friends and their character, while also ccomdemning those good trumper people for their trumpsucking, online and to their face.
Smart people can do stupid things, good people can do bad things and ignorant people can sometimes see through the veil that covers the eyes of the knowledgeable/well informed.
 
I've been looking for a common aspect in people that explains Orange's appeal. Country Bumpkinism certainly isn't it, not even close. Ideology certainly isn't it. Wanting to maintain my white privilege certainly isn't it. Anti-immigration certainly isn't it. Greed certainly isn't it although I think that's right up there as close to the top as you can get without being number one. Dishonesty certainly isn't it although this one would also be near the top because so many of his supporters are cheaters and liars who want to get away with crime because they've been ever so neglected, poor dears, and deserve better. Anti- abortion certainly isn't it. Fidelity certainly isn't it. Religion isn't it by a long shot.

What unites Orange's supplicants is a desire for authoritarianism. They don't want democracy, they want power and control and are not interested in sharing freedom. They see themselves as Orange. They do not understand what a democratic republic is and do not accept that someone else's vote should count as much as their own. They want to win every time the game is played and if they don't win then they were cheated. They are very poor losers because they are very poor observers. They share an inferiority complex and a superiority complex and would score very high on Dunning Kruger because they think they are much smarter than they are.

What would cause a person to behave so? It's not rocket science. Elixir hit the nail right on the head by asking what would cause you to submit yourself to an obvious conman, to buy the snake oil? Like I said, it ain't rocket science.
 
Toni said:
Elixir said:
Toni said:
I don’t think that the guy from Ohio as less intelligent but I do think that he hasn’t seen much that gives him hope his kids will have a better life, or that he is valued as a citizen.
Click to expand...

He had a good job, was a manager at a company that made stuff (cabinets), had friends, family and most of the things that people say they want. As he said, just a normal family man. I think he had what 99+% of all humans on this planet WISH they had.

But someone convinced him that he deserved more, and that the "more" he deserved was being stolen from him.
IOW, Trump tapped into his primal greed like he did/does to so many others. Holds himself up as an example - "All you have to do is be totally strong, and fight for what you deserve like I do." Not mentioned of course, is how helpful it is to first inherit $400,000,000 or so to help you "fight".
I do feel sorry for him, but also feel like he should be held up as an example of what happens to you if you are a trumpsucker. It was good IMO to hear about his life after 1/6. It would make a classic country song, losing his job and his former life... don't know about his dog but that would be a good add if he lost that too.
It's sad, but I don't hold him harmless - far from it.

We have got to give them space to do that.
Click to expand...

I don't think we owe them "space" or anything else. They need to "summon the courage to do the right thing", to borrow a phrase from their mango model. If they won't or don't, they fucking DESERVE to lose it all.
Click to expand...
Nobody likes it when they are being looked down upon.
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Funny... because these people love Trump because he looks down at all others.
Toni said:
And that's what a lot of urbanites and so called progressives do with regards to people who are in small towns, rural areas, manufacturing.
Click to expand...
Funny... because I have a college degree so I'm considered by 'these people' to not "work hard" for a living.
Toni said:
Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant.
Click to expand...
Intelligence seems to come with a pair of components: partisan and all-purpose. The people supporting Trump could be very smart all-purpose wise, but when it comes to partisan intelligence, they are bitter troglodytes.

Finally, the people that invaded the Capitol were largely middle to lower-upper class management folks. Not people that are laborers, they couldn't just take the time off.
 
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Elixir said:
Toni said:
Nobody likes it when they are being looked down upon.
Click to expand...

Very true. Best way to avoid that is to not go so low as to subjugate yourself to an obvious conman.

And that's what a lot of urbanites and so called progressives do with regards to people who are in small towns, rural areas, manufacturing.
Click to expand...

I don't feel like I do that much (having had to claw myself up to where I was in a small town, doing manufacturing), but to the extent that I do I know I have work to do on myself.

Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant.
Click to expand...


I feel like your "believe it or not" is meant to imply that I don't believe it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant. That is far from the case. In fact I get shit from some of my online lib'rul friends for coming to the defense of people I actually know IRL to be good people, who have fallen into the Trump trap.
But I can simultaneously chide my other friends for condemning my trumper friends and their character, while also ccomdemning those good trumper people for their trumpsucking, online and to their face.
Smart people can do stupid things, good people can do bad things and ignorant people can sometimes see through the veil that covers the eyes of the knowledgeable/well informed.
Click to expand...
I’m really sorry—My ‘believe it or not’ wasn’t actually directed towards you, although I wrote it in response to your post. I genuinely meant it as a general ‘believe it or not’ and fully and absolutely include myself.

I grew up in a family which was pretty conservative—I started going toe to toe with my dad when I was barely 14, and I deeply loved and respected him. We shared most of the same values: the value of family and friends, being honest and trustworthy, working hard, treating everyone fairly, being grateful for what you are given and pursuing education as far as you are able, deep curiosity ( which he maintaine up until the day he died), a deep appreciation of nature. And a deep appreciation of hard work and a strong conviction that wealth does not make anyone better than anyone else.

The devil is in the details, though. We disagreed about everything race related; he had a deep suspicion of city slickers and foreigners and held some pretty sexist views towards all women not his daughters.

And we disagreed about the death penalty, policing, crime. Social policy. He felt that government help made people lazy. I saw how the failure of social structure to help those in need needlessly crippled his family during the Depression when his father struggled to farm with a wife who took two mastectomies, multiple hospitalizations and ten years to die of breast cancer, leaving him with a 10 year old and a 15 year old, only one physically large enough to actually be of help. My mother’s family as well. My grandmother scrubbed floors to support4 kids and a disabled husband who died when my mom was 10. My family survived by being unrelentingly strong: there was no room for weakness or waiting for help that would not come. My parents did better than their parents; my siblings and I did better than our parents, economically, in large part because our parents insisted we work hard and get as far as we could in education

There are a lot of people I love and respect that I disagree with—fiercely! But I still respect their right get to form their own opinions and we look for common ground where we can find it.
 
laughing dog said:
In the last hearing, I was struck by the use of encrypted messages which suggests the organizers knew what they were doing was wrong.
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It's true that people who know they are doing something wrong will take advantage of encrypted tools like Telegram and Protonmail. However, not everyone using those apps thinks they are doing something wrong. They may be paranoid or just like the idea that their communications can't be monitored by third parties seeking to exploit them. My impression of the Jan. 6 rioters is that a lot of them genuinely seemed to believe they were entitled to go anywhere they wanted and pretty much do anything that they regarded as noble and patriotic.

So much of the footage that we've witnessed was taken and displayed on social media by the very same people who later faced criminal charges for their behavior. Evidently, they were really interested in being seen by friends and family to be doing what they were doing. They were engaged in an important historical event that made them feel important and empowered. So why would people like that make a point of using encrypted communications apps? I suspect it was part of what made them feel self-important. They were taking control by excluding the bad guys from monitoring what they were doing, but they were sharing that noble involvement with their loved ones and acquaintances--people whom they sought admiration and validation with.
 
Elixir said:
But someone convinced him that he deserved more, and that the "more" he deserved was being stolen from him.
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Our entire society is riddled with advertisements that tell people that they deserve more. This toxic idea is literally everywhere; You can’t step outside your home, or turn on a TV or radio, without being bombarded with images of stuff you don’t have, but should want, and do definitely deserve. At least according to the advertising agencies.

And it’s a pretty tiny step to go from “I don’t have most of this stuff” to “but other people apparently do, and they’re not noticeably different from me, so someone must have taken my share”.

Advertising is a deliberate and completely unashamed attempt to manipulate people into doing things they don’t want to do, (usually buying things they didn’t particularly want) for financial gain. And it’s everywhere. No wonder people are so fucked up. Our entire society is built around fucking people up so that someone can make a dollar out of their neuroses.

Because you’re worth it.
 
Jarhyn said:
You know, this birthed an idea in my head, to make an IC-EV that is entirely end user maintainable down to the circuit component level, something that someone with no programming knowledge could test, fix, and maintain, requires no diagnostics besides a multimeter, and can be learned in the same time or less than a mechanical drive train ICE
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Nobody would buy one, because of the inverse of Clarke’s Law.

Any technology that’s distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.

People don’t want to understand their magical items, or to fix them, or for them to even need to be fixed. They just want them to work.
 
bilby said:
Jarhyn said:
You know, this birthed an idea in my head, to make an IC-EV that is entirely end user maintainable down to the circuit component level, something that someone with no programming knowledge could test, fix, and maintain, requires no diagnostics besides a multimeter, and can be learned in the same time or less than a mechanical drive train ICE
Click to expand...
Nobody would buy one, because of the inverse of Clarke’s Law.

Any technology that’s distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.

People don’t want to understand their magical items, or to fix them, or for them to even need to be fixed. They just want them to work.
Click to expand...
That's delightfully cynical. I bet I could get good pull on it from anyone not spoiled by "slick shit".

Third world nations would be all over that.
 
Jarhyn said:
bilby said:
Jarhyn said:
You know, this birthed an idea in my head, to make an IC-EV that is entirely end user maintainable down to the circuit component level, something that someone with no programming knowledge could test, fix, and maintain, requires no diagnostics besides a multimeter, and can be learned in the same time or less than a mechanical drive train ICE
Click to expand...
Nobody would buy one, because of the inverse of Clarke’s Law.

Any technology that’s distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.

People don’t want to understand their magical items, or to fix them, or for them to even need to be fixed. They just want them to work.
Click to expand...
That's delightfully cynical. I bet I could get good pull on it from anyone not spoiled by "slick shit".

Third world nations would be all over that.
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I expect they would, but nobody in manufacturing industry cares what poor people want, because poor people haven’t got the money to buy their stuff.
 
T.G.G. Moogly said:
Toni said:
Trumpism appeals to the disaffected wherever they live,
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Trumpism is the same thing as anti-intellectualism.
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I wish that were so! But, anti-intellectualism is just another one of the tools Trump and his patrons have used to stoke strong emotions among their followers. It is a long-standing strain of American culture that preceded them and will outlive them.
 
Tigers! said:
Why are presidential pardons even allowed in the 1st place? That too easily opens a door that should be firmed nailed shut.
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Like a lot of things in the Trump era, we are seeing the end of a time when fanciful ideas like discretion, order, and politesse kept the use of the presidential pardon (somewhat) in check without the necessity of explicit legal boundaries. There have of course always been controversial pardons. The Burr affair comes to mind. But, the idea that a sitting president would use a blanket pardon to excuse crimes he and his associates planned to commit while in office was a possibility that simply would not have occurred to the framers of the Constitution. From their point of view, inherently distrustful of authorities, why would a president ever have the power to abuse the pardon so notoriously, without the Congress immediately using their own power of impeachment and removal to retaliate against such an obvious act of disdain for the rule of law? The pardon seemed to them a means of keeping, not breaking, the balance of power.

Unfortunately, this means that the relevant case law is mostly vague, and in general the pardon has effectively been considered a plenary right except with regard to impeachments themselves (the only restriction imposed by the Constitution itself). With that being the case, no Congressional attempt to bind the pardon in legal limitations is likely to be successful while the Supreme Court retains its present composition. They are not embarrassed to cry stare decisis when it supports their political prerogatives, only when it stands in their way. So any proposed law would be gutted in the Court of any stipulation that might be used to delegitimize a Trump pardon.
 
Tigers! said:
Why are presidential pardons even allowed in the 1st place? That too easily opens a door that should be firmed nailed shut.
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Because when America was started, they were trying to make a country that did all the stuff England did, without a king.

So all the stuff English kings can do had to be assigned to one or other of their branches of government, and granting pardons was allocated to the executive branch.

The English monarchy had the right to grant pardons because the king was next in line to God, and God wasn’t about to personally grant mercy to people on a whim, so it fell to the king to do it for him.
 
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Jarhyn said:
You know, this birthed an idea in my head, to make an IC-EV that is entirely end user maintainable down to the circuit component level, something that someone with no programming knowledge could test, fix, and maintain, requires no diagnostics besides a multimeter, and can be learned in the same time or less than a mechanical drive train ICE
Click to expand...
If they made it properly, there would be next to no maintenance. “Down to the component level”? Electronics can be made robust enough that for all intents and purposes, for the end user, there would be nothing to fix.
If they made them properly, as you approached your vehicle, unbeknownst to you, it would run a self diagnostic. A thorough self-diagnostics. Not the half-assed ones on today’s vehicles. On the off-chance something did need to be replaced, the vehicle would tell you exactly what that something was.

The first weapon system I worked on, circa 1985, came with half a dozen pieces of test equipment. We were turning pots, timing signals, storing signals, and oftentimes hunting for signals. The self-diagnostics were shit. Even then we knew if the system was down, look to see if there was anything mechanical in the affected subsystem as even then much of the electronics were very reliable.
My last system, circa 2001, didn’t even come with a multimeter. The self-diagnostics were spot-on and they were rarely needed. It just didn’t breakdown.
This is military standards. Works fine and lasts a long time. Today, most everything could be made this way but why? Why build something to last when you can build something that creates a steady stream of income? And the “it would cost too much” argument is a bullshit one anymore as manufacturing is no longer the labor intensive process it used to be.
 
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