Male patients asked if they are pregnant at NHS Trust

[Toni]

But people shouldn't get so irate and lose their shit when others do not go along with absurdities

Shiny Mirror on the wall...

People shouldn't get irate when others don't go along with absurdities, like asking to assume hidden information in a medical setting on the basis of appearances or "seeming" records, which is to say "seems right but who are we to know where that answer came from or why"

Jarhyn again pretending that hospitals do not ask for and record the sex of their patients.

Metaphor again pretending that all medical treatments involving xrays occur in hospital settings AND that all hospital personnel read everything on a patient's chart or even order slip.

I have never received a medical service (including my vaccines) without the service provider knowing my sex.

I'm happy for you.

Not everyone is so obviously male or obviously female.

And I could almost 100% guarantee that not every member of medical staff you encounter during your medical appointments is thoroughly acquainted with the contents of your chart.

 

[Metaphor]

Jarhyn thinks it is an egregious violation of privacy to be asked your sex. So I hope he is refusing health care services whenever he is asked, and telling them why.

This is your thread pumpkin.

If your local health care provider developed a policy of asking everyone "Could you be pregnant" before performing an MRI, would you refuse health care services?

I already explained my likely reaction earlier in the thread. I'd likely roll my eyes and, depending on my mood (I might need some kind of emergency imaging and I might be in great pain), I might say 'no, men don't have wombs'.

As far as I can tell, your real reason for starting this thread is that you're outraged by the fact that people aren't always put into a box based on sex anymore. Sorry dude, that's the reality. Trans folks are rare and confusing, but they exist and are human beings.
Tom

No, my real reason for starting this thread is the trading of working policy for absurd policy, based on political taste.

There's nothing confusing about trans people's pregnancy potential, at least not to me. Trans men are female, and are therefore in the class of people who can get pregnant. Trans women are male, and are therefore in the class of people who cannot.

 

[Metaphor]

But people shouldn't get so irate and lose their shit when others do not go along with absurdities

Shiny Mirror on the wall...

People shouldn't get irate when others don't go along with absurdities, like asking to assume hidden information in a medical setting on the basis of appearances or "seeming" records, which is to say "seems right but who are we to know where that answer came from or why"

Jarhyn again pretending that hospitals do not ask for and record the sex of their patients.

Metaphor again pretending that all medical treatments involving xrays occur in hospital settings AND that all hospital personnel read everything on a patient's chart or even order slip.

I have never received a medical service (including my vaccines) without the service provider knowing my sex.

I'm happy for you.

Not everyone is so obviously male or obviously female.

They didn't look at me and record my sex. They asked me.

And I could almost 100% guarantee that not every member of medical staff you encounter during your medical appointments is thoroughly acquainted with the contents of your chart.

I don't care if they are or they are not. But the ones who need to know my sex should check my sex.

 

[Jarhyn]

But people shouldn't get so irate and lose their shit when others do not go along with absurdities

Shiny Mirror on the wall...

People shouldn't get irate when others don't go along with absurdities, like asking to assume hidden information in a medical setting on the basis of appearances or "seeming" records, which is to say "seems right but who are we to know where that answer came from or why"

Jarhyn again pretending that hospitals do not ask for and record the sex of their patients.

Metaphor again pretending that all medical treatments involving xrays occur in hospital settings AND that all hospital personnel read everything on a patient's chart or even order slip.

I have never received a medical service (including my vaccines) without the service provider knowing my sex.

I'm happy for you.

Not everyone is so obviously male or obviously female.

And I could almost 100% guarantee that not every member of medical staff you encounter during your medical appointments is thoroughly acquainted with the contents of your chart.

Not to mention it's not like they look in your pants to find out, especially when you first get there. You may have been unconscious. It might have been a best guess. The chart might be wrong. And not only that, but it might be someone who either doesn't, or shouldn't have direct access to a person's chart.

The person may have answered "gender" rather than.

All sorts of things could have happened to create that ambiguously defined mark.

"Are you pregnant or may become pregnant" is an absolute, unambiguous momentary binary. There is a "yes/no" answer for every existing thing or set of things in the universe, and it cuts directly to the important matter.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A simple illustration of the need:

Last night I had an MRI. Wearing glasses is so automatic that even though I intended to leave them with the rest of my things in the locker in zone 2 I was distracted by a malfunctioning light and unconsciously wore them into zone 3. (They would only become dangerous if I wore them into zone 4.) The technician of course caught the problem. Layers of security!!

 

[Gun Nut]

People who are offended by questions that imply their gender is unknown or unassumed are obviously (to me) insecure about the status of their gender... if the IDEA that they COULD be accepted as a different gender than they identify as bothers them, it is likely because they have given it A LOT of thought and are afraid of the social consequences of their gender fluidity.
In other words, if it bothers you, it's because you are a little gay - and may or may not realize it.
It's OK.. fluidity is actually more normal than you think. You can want to be treated like a bitch in bed and still be a masculine person in public.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Jarhyn again pretending that hospitals do not ask for and record the sex of their patients.

Metaphor again pretending that all medical treatments involving xrays occur in hospital settings AND that all hospital personnel read everything on a patient's chart or even order slip.

I have never received a medical service (including my vaccines) without the service provider knowing my sex.

You are wearing the gown wrong.

 

[Toni]

You are more confident than I am concerning hospital staff.
No disrespect, but I know for a fact that hospital staff are fallible human beings.

The fallibility of hospital staff is irrelevant to whether or not males can get pregnant.

But it's not irrelevant to whether or not serious and avoidable medical mistakes can be made.

 

[Metaphor]

People who are offended by questions that imply their gender is unknown or unassumed are obviously (to me) insecure about the status of their gender... if the IDEA that they COULD be accepted as a different gender than they identify as bothers them, it is likely because they have given it A LOT of thought and are afraid of the social consequences of their gender fluidity.

You mean sex. Gender identity is a thought in your head.

Being asked if you are pregnant does not imply anything about your gender identity, but it does imply you are female and capable of being pregnant.

In other words, if it bothers you, it's because you are a little gay - and may or may not realize it.

I'm a lot gay and I've realised it since I was six years old.

It's OK.. fluidity is actually more normal than you think. You can want to be treated like a bitch in bed and still be a masculine person in public.

I see Jarhyn 'liked' this offensive stereotype - that 'feminine' gender identities want to be treated like 'a bitch' in bed.

 

[Emily Lake]

You are more confident than I am concerning hospital staff.
No disrespect, but I know for a fact that hospital staff are fallible human beings.

The fallibility of hospital staff is irrelevant to whether or not males can get pregnant.

But not irrelevant as to whether or not they can make a mistake--they certainly can! Or whether they may think that a man is a woman or the reverse, or fail to recognize or even be decently informed about the anatomy and physiology of transgender persons.

If the real question is how fragile are male egos or how deep misogyny runs, I think this thread has contributed a great deal of evidence.

I swear people just aren't fucking reading at all.

Ask the person's sex. If the person is female, ask if they might be pregnant. If the person is male skip that part. Done. Not hard, not challenging, not obscure. Very straightforward.

Sex affects many more aspects of medicine than pregnancy does. There are some situations in which pregnancy matters more than sex, but taken as a whole, sex is a more vital and broadly needed piece of information. And if you ask and verify sex, you only need to ask half the people whether they could be pregnant.

 

[TomC]

the person's sex. If the person is female, ask if they might be pregnant. If the person is male skip that part. Done. Not hard, not challenging, not obscure. Very straightforward.

Why make it more complicated than necessary?
"Could you be pregnant?" is the real question here. Not, "Where do feel that you fall on the gender spectrum?"

All the technician wants to know, at the time of the procedure, is "Could this procedure harm an unborn human being?" And get a clear answer from the human being about to have the procedure.
I don't see what's difficult about this.
Why is giving a simple yes or no answer a problem?
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

You can want to be treated like a bitch in bed and still be a masculine person in public.

How exactly do you think women like to be treated in bed? And have you asked any women whether they *want* to be treated like "bitches" in bed?

 

[TomC]

You can want to be treated like a bitch in bed and still be a masculine person in public.

How exactly do you think women like to be treated in bed? And have you asked any women whether they *want* to be treated like "bitches" in bed?

I know for a fact that there are people, including some persons of boobage, who do want that.
Demand it.

Will pay for it.

People are weird.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

the person's sex. If the person is female, ask if they might be pregnant. If the person is male skip that part. Done. Not hard, not challenging, not obscure. Very straightforward.

Why make it more complicated than necessary?
"Could you be pregnant?" is the real question here. Not, "Where do feel that you fall on the gender spectrum?"

All the technician wants to know, at the time of the procedure, is "Could this procedure harm an unborn human being?" And get a clear answer from the human being about to have the procedure.
I don't see what's difficult about this.
Why is giving a simple yes or no answer a problem?
Tom

The answer to your question is in the part you snipped.

SEX AFFECTS A LOT OF MEDICINE, MORE SO THAN PREGNANCY.

Pregnancy in medical settings is asked OF FEMALES because of the risk of harm to the fetus. SEX ought to be asked in all situations because of the RISK OF INAPPROPRIATE TREATMENT TO THE ACTUAL PATIENT

Use your imagination just a wee bit here. Imagine that a person comes into the ER complaining of intense abdominal pain on their right side. The doctor asks "is it possible that you're pregnant", and the person answers "No". Great - their "privacy" has been protected, and they're not at risk of having their private super-secret sex exposed to a doctor.

Which is great... except that the person is a female with an ovarian cyst that has ruptured and become septic! Because that's a thing that can happen to FEMALES of the human species and cannot happen to males. And the possibility of pregnancy is irrelevant to the fact that they have a ruptured ovarian cyst... but their SEX is incredibly highly fucking relevant!

Seriously, do you people not understand that males and females are different? If a male comes in to the doctor complaining of having trouble urinating, the doctor is going to look at a different set of possible causes than if that patient were female. You know why? Because FEMALES DON'T HAVE FUCKING PROSTATES THAT GET ENLARGED AND BLOCK THEIR URETER! If a male comes in with severe anemia, they're going to look for different causes than if that patient were a female. You know why? Because MALES DON'T GET FIBROIDS THAT FREQUENTLY CAUSE ANEMIA!

 

[Metaphor]

Why make it more complicated than necessary?
"Could you be pregnant?" is the real question here. Not, "Where do feel that you fall on the gender spectrum?"

You are correct that "where do you fall on the gender spectrum" is not the real question nor did anybody claim it was.

 

[ZiprHead]

I'm a lot gay and I've realised it since I was six years old.

That's only a thought in your head.

 

[Metaphor]

I'm a lot gay and I've realised it since I was six years old.

That's only a thought in your head.

Of course it's a thought in my head but it's more than that. It also depends on my sex. If I were female and had persistent sexual thoughts exclusively about men, I'd be straight. But since I'm male and have the same thoughts, I'm gay.

 

[Toni]

You are more confident than I am concerning hospital staff.
No disrespect, but I know for a fact that hospital staff are fallible human beings.

The fallibility of hospital staff is irrelevant to whether or not males can get pregnant.

But not irrelevant as to whether or not they can make a mistake--they certainly can! Or whether they may think that a man is a woman or the reverse, or fail to recognize or even be decently informed about the anatomy and physiology of transgender persons.

If the real question is how fragile are male egos or how deep misogyny runs, I think this thread has contributed a great deal of evidence.

I swear people just aren't fucking reading at all.

Ask the person's sex. If the person is female, ask if they might be pregnant. If the person is male skip that part. Done. Not hard, not challenging, not obscure. Very straightforward.

Sex affects many more aspects of medicine than pregnancy does. There are some situations in which pregnancy matters more than sex, but taken as a whole, sex is a more vital and broadly needed piece of information. And if you ask and verify sex, you only need to ask half the people whether they could be pregnant.

I swear some people aren't reading. The question about sex is NOT as straightforward for ALL people as you seem to believe. A trans individual may identify as their new gender and simply not even consider that at one time they had a uterus and ovaries. OR they may still retain a uterus or ovaries. A trans woman may identify herself as female.

I don't see men as so very very fragile that their poor little egos cannot stand the thought of being asked if they could be pregnant. Of course most will consider it a foolish and obviously useless question. So. For a handful, it could really be a serious issue.

When my husband was screened for breast cancer, he was asked all sorts of questions that could not possibly apply to him. Yet, he was asked the questions. If anything, I think it gave him a tiny glimmer of empathy about questions women must answer. Personally, I'm all in favor of more empathy for women on the part of men.

 

[Arctish]

the person's sex. If the person is female, ask if they might be pregnant. If the person is male skip that part. Done. Not hard, not challenging, not obscure. Very straightforward.

Why make it more complicated than necessary?
"Could you be pregnant?" is the real question here. Not, "Where do feel that you fall on the gender spectrum?"

All the technician wants to know, at the time of the procedure, is "Could this procedure harm an unborn human being?" And get a clear answer from the human being about to have the procedure.
I don't see what's difficult about this.
Why is giving a simple yes or no answer a problem?
Tom

The answer to your question is in the part you snipped.

SEX AFFECTS A LOT OF MEDICINE, MORE SO THAN PREGNANCY.

Pregnancy in medical settings is asked OF FEMALES because of the risk of harm to the fetus. SEX ought to be asked in all situations because of the RISK OF INAPPROPRIATE TREATMENT TO THE ACTUAL PATIENT

Use your imagination just a wee bit here. Imagine that a person comes into the ER complaining of intense abdominal pain on their right side. The doctor asks "is it possible that you're pregnant", and the person answers "No". Great - their "privacy" has been protected, and they're not at risk of having their private super-secret sex exposed to a doctor.

Which is great... except that the person is a female with an ovarian cyst that has ruptured and become septic! Because that's a thing that can happen to FEMALES of the human species and cannot happen to males. And the possibility of pregnancy is irrelevant to the fact that they have a ruptured ovarian cyst... but their SEX is incredibly highly fucking relevant!

Seriously, do you people not understand that males and females are different? If a male comes in to the doctor complaining of having trouble urinating, the doctor is going to look at a different set of possible causes than if that patient were female. You know why? Because FEMALES DON'T HAVE FUCKING PROSTATES THAT GET ENLARGED AND BLOCK THEIR URETER! If a male comes in with severe anemia, they're going to look for different causes than if that patient were a female. You know why? Because MALES DON'T GET FIBROIDS THAT FREQUENTLY CAUSE ANEMIA!

I doubt anyone here is confused about which body parts are necessary for a person to become pregnant. The argument isn't about whether individuals with only male sex characteristics can get pregnant, but whether it makes sense to ask everyone about to undergo a treatment that can harm a fetus if they think they might be pregnant.

SEXISM ASIDE, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM HERE?

I get it that some men don't want to be asked that question.

I get it that some very sexist men might feel insulted and demeaned if they are asked that question.

I also get it that there's less chance of a pregnant person being overlooked if everyone is asked that question, not just the ones with a feminine appearance.

Is it really so awful when men aren't given special consideration based on their manly aspect? Is it so terrible that society allows people to look and act in ways that don't conform to rigid rules about sex and gender so that one can't simply assume that the masculine appearing person in the waiting room can't possibly be pregnant?

 

[Metaphor]

I also get it that there's less chance of a pregnant person being overlooked if everyone is asked that question, not just the ones with a feminine appearance.

Please stop it with this. There is no evidence whatever that the previous policy went by 'feminine appearance'.

Is it really so awful when men aren't given special consideration based on their manly aspect? Is it so terrible that society allows people to look and act in ways that don't conform to rigid rules about sex and gender so that one can't simply assume that the masculine appearing person in the waiting room can't possibly be pregnant?

Please stop it with this. There is no evidence whatever that the previous policy went by appearance.

Also, stop conflating sex and gender. Gender has nothing to do with it. Nobody proposed only asking people with a feminine gender identity. The 'rigid rules' about sex, on the other hand, are imposed by nature, not society.

Females should be asked about possibly pregnancy status. No matter what they look like.

This policy was a politically-influenced solution in search of a problem.