Mueller investigation

[EvoUK]

Penn Jillette Says Trump 'Apprentice' Tapes Exist: "I Was in the Room"

If Jillette has proof, then he needs to produce it. Otherwise, what he's saying is of no value.

Would it even make a difference? Will there be an outcry from even 'moderate' republicans or 'independents' (who always happen to vote republican), those who voted 'against Hillary', rather than 'for Trump'? I don't think it will.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Penn Jillette Says Trump 'Apprentice' Tapes Exist: "I Was in the Room"

If Jillette has proof, then he needs to produce it. Otherwise, what he's saying is of no value.

Would it even make a difference? Will there be an outcry from even 'moderate' republicans or 'independents' (who always happen to vote republican), those who voted 'against Hillary', rather than 'for Trump'? I don't think it will.

66% of America wants the Mueller investigation over in two months. Clearly the people don’t give a fuck about anything but taking children from parents.

 

[Ford]

Penn Jillette Says Trump 'Apprentice' Tapes Exist: "I Was in the Room"

If Jillette has proof, then he needs to produce it. Otherwise, what he's saying is of no value.

If you follow the link to the original interview, he explains in detail why he won't go into details :

Can you tell me what you’ve heard him say?
No. If Donald Trump had not become president, I would tell you all the stories. But the stakes are now high and I am an unreliable narrator. What I do, as much as anything, is I’m a storyteller. And storytellers are liars. So I can emotionally tell you things that happened racially, sexually, and that showed stupidity and lack of compassion when I was in the room with Donald Trump and I guarantee you that I will get details wrong. I would not feel comfortable talking about what I felt I saw in that room — because when I was on that show I was sleeping four to five hours a night. I was uncomfortable. “Stress” is the wrong word, but I was not at my best.

But wait, there's more!

You sit at this table and this man rambles — pontificates is giving him too much credit. And because you live in the modern world you’ve heard Trump ramble. But you’ve heard Trump ramble when he thinks he’s being careful. Imagine when he feels he can be frank. And I will tell you things, but I will very conscientiously not give you quotations because I believe that would be morally wrong. I’m not trying to protect myself. This really is a moral thing.

Just so I’m clear: It’s a moral thing because it would be wrong to misquote him or because you don’t want to unduly have an effect on politics?
If he hadn’t become president, I would be telling stories all day long. And if someone were to say, “Penn didn’t get that exactly right,” you’d go “Who cares?”

But now being accurate matters more.
Yeah, the stakes are really high. Not for me. Nothing I can say here hurts my career. But for the world the stakes are higher. He [President Trump] would be reading. And what I’m trying to do here is tell you the story emotionally without telling you specifics.

http://www.vulture.com/2018/08/penn-jillette-in-conversation.html

He goes on to say that context is important, and he's right. In the context of the Mueller investigation, Trump's racist comments really are irrelevant. The Special Counsel isn't trying to prove Trump's an asshole. Like any good prosecutor, he's looking for crimes that will stand up in court.

 

[Copernicus]

Here is the closing argument from the prosecution in a set of live blogs that was published in the Washington Post. A nice summary of their case against Paul Manafort.

Paul Manafort trial Day 12: Prosecutors say Manafort money trail ‘littered with lies’

 

[whollygoats]

So...I'm hearing that no defense was mounted.

'Zat true?

If so, can somebody parse that meaning? Flip or pardon?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So...I'm hearing that no defense was mounted.

'Zat true?

If so, can somebody parse that meaning? Flip or pardon?

Who exactly are they going to call up to the stand?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So...I'm hearing that no defense was mounted.

'Zat true?

If so, can somebody parse that meaning? Flip or pardon?

If you go to trial and mount no defense there are two reasonable scenarios:

1) You believe the prosecution's case is weak enough the jury won't convict. (Perhaps he's hoping for a trumpet on the jury.)

2) You had a defense planned but the judge scuttled it for some reason.

 

[Angry Floof]

So...I'm hearing that no defense was mounted.

'Zat true?

If so, can somebody parse that meaning? Flip or pardon?

I've read the same. they only entered a few pieces of evidence and called no witnesses.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

So...I'm hearing that no defense was mounted.

'Zat true?

If so, can somebody parse that meaning? Flip or pardon?

If you go to trial and mount no defense there are two reasonable scenarios:

1) You believe the prosecution's case is weak enough the jury won't convict. (Perhaps he's hoping for a trumpet on the jury.)

2) You had a defense planned but the judge scuttled it for some reason.

3) You gave a legal contribution to the judge's favorite prostitute.

 

[Underseer]

So...I'm hearing that no defense was mounted.

'Zat true?

If so, can somebody parse that meaning? Flip or pardon?

If you go to trial and mount no defense there are two reasonable scenarios:

1) You believe the prosecution's case is weak enough the jury won't convict. (Perhaps he's hoping for a trumpet on the jury.)

2) You had a defense planned but the judge scuttled it for some reason.

None of those options include the assumption of a pardon?

Is that because you think a pardon is unlikely to happen?

 

[Toni]

So...I'm hearing that no defense was mounted.

'Zat true?

If so, can somebody parse that meaning? Flip or pardon?

If you go to trial and mount no defense there are two reasonable scenarios:

1) You believe the prosecution's case is weak enough the jury won't convict. (Perhaps he's hoping for a trumpet on the jury.)

2) You had a defense planned but the judge scuttled it for some reason.

None of those options include the assumption of a pardon?

Is that because you think a pardon is unlikely to happen?

Absolutely there will be a pardon or an attempt at a pardon.

Question is: if Manafort turns and gives them real dirt on Trump or closer Trump associates, will Trump pardon him before he can spill all? How does that work, if you have dirt on the guy who pardons you? Is the pardon valid?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So...I'm hearing that no defense was mounted.

'Zat true?

If so, can somebody parse that meaning? Flip or pardon?

If you go to trial and mount no defense there are two reasonable scenarios:

1) You believe the prosecution's case is weak enough the jury won't convict. (Perhaps he's hoping for a trumpet on the jury.)

2) You had a defense planned but the judge scuttled it for some reason.

4) You are so unbelievably guilty that it all hinges on a scattered obfuscated closing argument. Or they are waiting for the State trial because they know a pardon is coming.

 

[Copernicus]

I don't know what kind of deal Trump and Manafort may have over a pardon or even whether they have some kind of behind-the-scenes deal. Manafort was never going to escape jail time, so, at his age, he may have figured that relying on a future pardon would be a better gamble than turning against Trump now. He'll go to jail (if the jury so rules) and wait for some kind of clemency from his former patron. Other things being equal, I have no doubt that Trump will pardon him for his loyalty, but not if Trump calculated that such a pardon would put himself in any jeopardy. Manafort might ultimately fare worse by not cooperating with Mueller, but he stands to fare far better if Trump remains ensconced as President to the end of his term. Right now, the odds look more in favor of that. Even if the House and Senate flip to Democrats, it is highly improbable that an impeachment trial will succeed in the Senate.

 

[Underseer]

None of those options include the assumption of a pardon?

Is that because you think a pardon is unlikely to happen?

Absolutely there will be a pardon or an attempt at a pardon.

Question is: if Manafort turns and gives them real dirt on Trump or closer Trump associates, will Trump pardon him before he can spill all? How does that work, if you have dirt on the guy who pardons you? Is the pardon valid?

Well, that's kind of the pickle Trump is in. If he pardons Manafort, then Manafort can no longer plead the Fifth, but I expect Trump doesn't understand that.

 

[ZiprHead]

None of those options include the assumption of a pardon?

Is that because you think a pardon is unlikely to happen?

Absolutely there will be a pardon or an attempt at a pardon.

Question is: if Manafort turns and gives them real dirt on Trump or closer Trump associates, will Trump pardon him before he can spill all? How does that work, if you have dirt on the guy who pardons you? Is the pardon valid?

Well, that's kind of the pickle Trump is in. If he pardons Manafort, then Manafort can no longer plead the Fifth, but I expect Trump doesn't understand that.

What if Bonespurs just commutes his sentence?

 

[Elixir]

Well, that's kind of the pickle Trump is in. If he pardons Manafort, then Manafort can no longer plead the Fifth, but I expect Trump doesn't understand that.

What if Bonespurs just commutes his sentence?

All good questions. What if Manafort is held in contempt for not answering a Grand Jury's questions after he loses 5th amendment protection?
Another pardon?
No matter what course Trump chooses, there are no good optics to be had, regardless of the massive effort he has launched to distort public opinion. And there's another trial coming right up. Plus Omarosa threatening the release of more tapes, Penn Gillette adding to that noise, Cohen about to say God-Knows-What, Roger Stone being fitted for a noose, and ... what is a poor beleaguered public servant to do?
Oh - right : revoke some meaningless security clearances! That'll keep the really bad news at bay for a few hours!
But then what?
Declare war on Monaco?

 

[ZiprHead]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/22/us/politics/can-president-be-indicted-kenneth-starr-memo.html

 

[Worldtraveller]

Well, that's kind of the pickle Trump is in. If he pardons Manafort, then Manafort can no longer plead the Fifth, but I expect Trump doesn't understand that.

What if Bonespurs just commutes his sentence?

All good questions. What if Manafort is held in contempt for not answering a Grand Jury's questions after he loses 5th amendment protection?
Another pardon?
No matter what course Trump chooses, there are no good optics to be had, regardless of the massive effort he has launched to distort public opinion. And there's another trial coming right up. Plus Omarosa threatening the release of more tapes, Penn Gillette adding to that noise, Cohen about to say God-Knows-What, Roger Stone being fitted for a noose, and ... what is a poor beleaguered public servant to do?
Oh - right : revoke some meaningless security clearances! That'll keep the really bad news at bay for a few hours!
But then what?
Declare war on Monaco?

You all assume that once he loses 5th amendment protection, he'll tell the truth. That's the fatal flaw in this thinking. I don't know if Manafort still feels he owes anything to trump, or if he might not, once the pardon is done, think it isn't really better for everyone if he dishes on trump, but the reality is that anything can still happen here (think Iran -Contra).

 

[Keith&Co.]

You all assume that once he loses 5th amendment protection, he'll tell the truth. That's the fatal flaw in this thinking.

not really a flaw. If he testifies, his lies would have to perfectly match all the evidence Mueller has collected so far, or he's risking perjury charges.
Since he can't know everything Mueller knows, that would be a singular feat. And one ballsy gamble

 

[Elixir]

You all assume that once he loses 5th amendment protection, he'll tell the truth. That's the fatal flaw in this thinking.

not really a flaw. If he testifies, his lies would have to perfectly match all the evidence Mueller has collected so far, or he's risking perjury charges.

.... and risking another pardon? Maybe Trump will pardon him in advance so he can lie his face off with impunity, just like Trump.