My New Argument for a Nonphysical Consciousness

[DBT]

I thought that you were arguing for the reality of non physical consciousness? That is the title of the thread.

What made you ask this? As far as I know, I am still arguing for a non-physical consciousness.

Your reply to my remark in regard to post #383, which says one thing, but the idea of non physical consciousness implies something else. There seems to be a conflict between the the two.

 

[ryan]

I agree that there was a physical difference, but there isn't a physical difference anymore.

Could you clarify: when was there a physical difference between the original and the clone, and when does this difference cease to exist?

That doesn't matter. The point is that there is no physical difference between the two.

 

[ryan]

Changing "you" to "'A'" isn't intended to be a rebuttal; it is intended to be a clarification.

The entirety of the rebuttal still stands - You are engaged in a massive non-sequitur.

If the 'you' in my original C2 is a non-physical difference, then presumably you seek to claim that the 'Individual A' in the revised C2 is a non-physical difference.

Would you like to explain what it is about 'Individual A' that you are claiming is non-physical please?

And while you are at it, I would be grateful if you could also explain what it is about 'Individual A' that is a difference.

Thanks!

Nope, I am done with you, unless you bring up something new. We are now about to start a new circle. This will save us both time.

 

[ryan]

What made you ask this? As far as I know, I am still arguing for a non-physical consciousness.

Your reply to my remark in regard to post #383, which says one thing, but the idea of non physical consciousness implies something else. There seems to be a conflict between the the two.

Besides the fact that I am infinitely interested in all of this, I also hope I can understand what we are.

I would like to think that the technology that will save us from death is one that the 2045 Initiative is working on. But I don't trust the idea that I can replace my brain with an artificial one and still be me. Or, I don't like the idea that if our information can ever be uploaded into a machine, we simply can be remade into a clone.

Or consider the idea that we can be teleported which requires total destruction of the original body, and an entirely new clone is made. Scientists debate whether or not we really are the clone in all respects.

I have a driving bug in me that tells me that there is no difference between dying and dying with a clone being made. The clone will not make a difference to me because I will be dead.

Do you actually think that if you had to die to be teleported, by way of a distant clone creation, that you will just feel like you have warped to another location?

 

[Juma]

Would an alien from a totally different universe recognize that minds exist on sensory alone? No they wouldn't.

Which is an totally unsupported statement.

I already showed you the equation. And then you seemed to reinforce my argument.

No. The "equation" doesnt show any contradiction since it is bloody obvious that the identities are different.

You have yet to show a contradiction.

 

[ryan]

Which is an totally unsupported statement.

I already showed you the equation. And then you seemed to reinforce my argument.

No. The "equation" doesnt show any contradiction since it is bloody obvious that the identities are different.

You have yet to show a contradiction.

You pretty much agreed with me when you said, "That is because the identity differ". Did you mean this?

 

[bilby]

Your reply to my remark in regard to post #383, which says one thing, but the idea of non physical consciousness implies something else. There seems to be a conflict between the the two.

Besides the fact that I am infinitely interested in all of this, I also hope I can understand what we are.

I would like to think that the technology that will save us from death is one that the 2045 Initiative is working on. But I don't trust the idea that I can replace my brain with an artificial one and still be me. Or, I don't like the idea that if our information can ever be uploaded into a machine, we simply can be remade into a clone.

Or consider the idea that we can be teleported which requires total destruction of the original body, and an entirely new clone is made. Scientists debate whether or not we really are the clone in all respects.

I have a driving bug in me that tells me that there is no difference between dying and dying with a clone being made. The clone will not make a difference to me because I will be dead.

Do you actually think that if you had to die to be teleported, by way of a distant clone creation, that you will just feel like you have warped to another location?

If you have ever experienced deep, dreamless sleep; or anaesthesia without awareness of the passing of time; then you have already experienced what such a teleportation is like.

You have likely died (in every way that matters to YOU) every night of your life - often several times - and never noticed.

You can stop worrying.

 

[Juma]

Which is an totally unsupported statement.



No. The "equation" doesnt show any contradiction since it is bloody obvious that the identities are different.

You have yet to show a contradiction.

You pretty much agreed with me when you said, "That is because the identity differ". Did you mean this?

The identities differ because the bodies are two different entities. Thus your equation is wrong. There is no logical contradiction.

Or maybe you have some other weird definition of "identity"?

And you forgot to defend you unsupported claim that the mind cannot be detected. Or have you given up that?

 

[ryan]

Besides the fact that I am infinitely interested in all of this, I also hope I can understand what we are.

I would like to think that the technology that will save us from death is one that the 2045 Initiative is working on. But I don't trust the idea that I can replace my brain with an artificial one and still be me. Or, I don't like the idea that if our information can ever be uploaded into a machine, we simply can be remade into a clone.

Or consider the idea that we can be teleported which requires total destruction of the original body, and an entirely new clone is made. Scientists debate whether or not we really are the clone in all respects.

I have a driving bug in me that tells me that there is no difference between dying and dying with a clone being made. The clone will not make a difference to me because I will be dead.

Do you actually think that if you had to die to be teleported, by way of a distant clone creation, that you will just feel like you have warped to another location?

If you have ever experienced deep, dreamless sleep; or anaesthesia without awareness of the passing of time; then you have already experienced what such a teleportation is like.

You have likely died (in every way that matters to YOU) every night of your life - often several times - and never noticed.

You're forgetting about the unconsciousness. It is always there and a part of who/what we are.

You talk a big game, but I would bet anything that you would not kill yourself to "warp" home to avoid rush hour.

You can stop worrying.

My "worrying" has driven me in ways that I expect will help save our lives. It is amazing what this kind of motivation can accomplish.

 

[bilby]

If you have ever experienced deep, dreamless sleep; or anaesthesia without awareness of the passing of time; then you have already experienced what such a teleportation is like.

You have likely died (in every way that matters to YOU) every night of your life - often several times - and never noticed.

You're forgetting about the unconsciousness. It is always there and a part of who/what we are.

Prove it.

You talk a big game, but I would bet anything that you would not kill yourself to "warp" home to avoid rush hour.

Even your life?

You can stop worrying.

My "worrying" has driven me in ways that I expect will help save our lives. It is amazing what this kind of motivation can accomplish.

From where I sit, your obsession with this topic has accomplished nothing positive at all; it causes you evident distress, to no purpose.

 

[ryan]

You pretty much agreed with me when you said, "That is because the identity differ". Did you mean this?

The identities differ because the bodies are two different entities.

But that's the non-physical difference - in different identities.

Or maybe you have some other weird definition of "identity"?

Maybe I can expand a little and call it a subjective identity, or an identity of experience.

 

[ryan]

You're forgetting about the unconsciousness. It is always there and a part of who/what we are.

Prove it.

prove the unconsciousness? There are so many interesting experiments done that provide strong evidence for an unconscious. You can't be serious.

My "worrying" has driven me in ways that I expect will help save our lives. It is amazing what this kind of motivation can accomplish.

From where I sit, your obsession with this topic has accomplished nothing positive at all; it causes you evident distress, to no purpose.

Where do you see evidence of stress?

 

[bilby]

Prove it.

prove the unconsciousness? There are so many interesting experiments done that provide strong evidence for an unconscious. You can't be serious.

Prove that it is always there.

My "worrying" has driven me in ways that I expect will help save our lives. It is amazing what this kind of motivation can accomplish.

From where I sit, your obsession with this topic has accomplished nothing positive at all; it causes you evident distress, to no purpose.

Where do you see evidence of stress?

Distress<>Stress

 

[ryan]

"Bilby, you are sentenced to 30 years for first degree murder"

"But he was going to die tonight anyways"

 

[bilby]

"Bilby, you are sentenced to 30 years for first degree murder"

"But he was going to die tonight anyways"

Not permanently. And I don't much fancy waking up in jail.

 

[ryan]

"Bilby, you are sentenced to 30 years for first degree murder"

"But he was going to die tonight anyways"

Not permanently. And I don't much fancy waking up in jail.

I was mostly joking.

But killing yourself to be a clone would be a permanent death. By your logic, going to sleep and then waking up would be the exact same thing as dying and being replaced with a clone. Wouldn't it?

 

[Juma]

Maybe I can expand a little and call it a subjective identity, or an identity of experience.

But the subjective identity will not differ! Not at the time when the copy is made.
It will differ later but only because of different input.

 

[Juma]

By your logic, going to sleep and then waking up would be the exact same thing as dying and being replaced with a clone. Wouldn't it?

It is the exact same thing.

 

[ryan]

Maybe I can expand a little and call it a subjective identity, or an identity of experience.

But the subjective identity will not differ! Not at the time when the copy is made.
It will differ later but only because of different input.

And there is another differentiating property, the fact that it will eventually differ.

By your logic, going to sleep and then waking up would be the exact same thing as dying and being replaced with a clone. Wouldn't it?

It is the exact same thing.

So then you are saying that you will have not just an identical consciousness as the previous Juma, but the same consciousness. It's not the same thing because of your identity.

 

[Juma]

But the subjective identity will not differ! Not at the time when the copy is made.
It will differ later but only because of different input.

And there is another differentiating property, the fact that it will eventually differ.

I already mentioned that (How about actually read my post before answering it?) and that is the same as saying that there are "two separate bodies" which I have bern specifically clear with in previous posts.