No Means Yes If You Know How To Spot It

[Derec]

It's not a question of her not being "really raped". She alleges a real rape (unlike say a hookup where she was moderately drunk). I have no idea if she was or not. However, there is no evidence that I have seen. It's "he said, she said" all the way. In her own account, published in Time, Emma relates how "he said she said" went down at the hearing. They both were allowed to present their version of events, which he did in some detail (fictional she claims).


No, it does not mean that at all. But we need a lot more than mere possibility of her not consenting to punish the accused.
The preexisting relationship doesn't preclude the possibility that it was rape, but it makes proving it that much messier and more difficult.

No, but marital rape has the same problem of proving the rape happened...

Again, not being omniscient we have to go by evidence. Is it possible that she was raped? Sure, even with the preexisting relationship. Was she raped? Who knows, but it certainly wasn't proven by the 'he said she said' exchange.

Derec, you have really talked yourself into a corner on this one. Your original complaint was that anytime a female student files a complaint on campus, the poor male students are tossed off campus purely on her say so. Yet here you have brought up a case that totally disproves your contention. THREE different women claim this male student raped them, yet nothing has happened to that male student. He is still there.

You have proved yourself wrong with your own choice of example.

I said that it is incredibly easy to expel male students, not that it happens every single time. In any case, luckily Columbia seems to have marginally better system than colleges like Vassar, UGA or UNC. However, federal government is investigating them and I am sure there will be reeducation forthcoming.

 

[RavenSky]

and that this is what she objected to. It doesn't matter if she has previously consented to every possible form of sexual intercourse with this man... if she said "no" to anal intercourse and he did it anyway - that is rape. Do I really need to explain this to you Derec?

No need to explain as I agree with you here - including the very important word "if". She said that's what happened, he said it didn't. Without any other evidence what is the university to conclude, especially in light of a pre-existing sexual relationship.

NOT "especially in light of a pre-existing sexual relationship", Derec. But you are providing an excellent example of why we need policies such as the one just passed in California.

SB 967: Affirmative consent must be ongoing throughout a sexual activity and can be revoked at any time. The existence of a dating relationship between the persons involved, or the fact of past sexual relations between them, should never by itself be assumed to be an indicator of consent.

 

[Derec]

Just so it is clear, his suspension for an entire game (Clemson/Seminoles) was NOT related to that investigation.

It was him saying some non-PC things about women. And I do believe that the harsh response to such a non-event was certainly influenced by that old rape accusation.

- - - Updated - - -

NOT "especially in light of a pre-existing sexual relationship", Derec. But you are providing an excellent example of why we need policies such as the one just passed in California.

Policies passed in Calfornia make it even easier to expel male students in a "he said she said" situations? That would make those policies even more disastrous than they already are.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I said that it is incredibly easy to expel male students, not that it happens every single time. In any case, luckily Columbia seems to have marginally better system than colleges like Vassar, UGA or UNC. However, federal government is investigating them and I am sure there will be reeducation forthcoming.

It is incredibly easy to expel any student for any reason. I've had to do it.

 

[RavenSky]

Derec, you have really talked yourself into a corner on this one. Your original complaint was that anytime a female student files a complaint on campus, the poor male students are tossed off campus purely on her say so. Yet here you have brought up a case that totally disproves your contention. THREE different women claim this male student raped them, yet nothing has happened to that male student. He is still there.

You have proved yourself wrong with your own choice of example.

I said that it is incredibly easy to expel male students, not that it happens every single time.

Apparently not so easy at all given that THREE different women filed complaints against the same man. This goes beyond "he said, she said" yet the university decided there wasn't enough evidence.

 

[RavenSky]

Furthermore, another detail in the article that you apparently did not find "interesting" enough to highlight is that two other female students had also reported this same male student for rape, and many more anonymously listed him as a campus rapist.


According to her, which is hearsay. How many, if any, actually complained to the university, rather than to her? How many went to the police, if any? What did they allege? All of this is either unknown or is coming from the Mattressgirl directly.

First of all, her name is Emma as you well know because I have used it multiple times.

Second of all, no it is not hearsay. The university received three complaints against the same man, and dismissed all three complaints.

But some men would, and those men usually rape many women before they are reported. Since most women don't report their rapes in the first place, I find it "interesting" that in this case we have three separate women reporting this same man, yet the university dismisses all three complaints.

Given how easy it is to expel male students that suggests major problems with these additional accusations, if they exist at all.

Except that your "given" is not a "given" at all, and your own choice of example proves that male expulsion is not a "given".

And maybe, just maybe, this case really suggests major problems with how some universities dismiss/bury/deny complaints of sexual assaults on their campus. No shock that you would twist this all around to your own bias, though.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I forgot to add: unless you are an athlete then it is easy after your eligibility ends.

 

[Derec]

I said that it is incredibly easy to expel male students, not that it happens every single time.

Apparently not so easy at all given that THREE different women filed complaints against the same man. This goes beyond "he said, she said" yet the university decided there wasn't enough evidence.

I do not think the other girls filed any complaints to the university or the police. They are also not alleging rape. From another sympathetic article about the case:

Sulkowicz didn’t report the incident at first. But when two classmates told her that Paul had been abusive to them too—one who had been in a long-term relationship with him, the other alleging he groped her—she pressed charges with the administration.

Looks like she only claims that two women complained to her, not the university, much less the police, which makes it hearsay. Also she isn't even claiming that the two other girls claimed he raped them. One allegedly cites unspecified "abusive" behavior, the other says he groped her. Both fall well short of anal rape even if true.
But it seems like he was a shy, introverted kind of person which doesn't really fit an anal rapist thing:

There were an odd number of students on the trip, so everyone sat two to a canoe except Paul, who was in a kayak. “He would paddle way out ahead of everyone so that he didn’t have to talk to anyone,” she says. They had sex twice. He went to Europe for the summer.
When he returned, at the beginning of sophomore year, Sulkowicz was a committee head for orientation. “Paul was really needy,” she says.

Lastly, he had consumed much more alcohol than she did, which surely means she raped him according to "drunk means rape" crowd on here:

Paul kissed Sulkowicz, who says that she was sober except for a sip of gin-and-Sprite. He was buzzed and carrying a handle of vodka. While they were having consensual sex in her dorm room,

 

[Derec]

Second of all, no it is not hearsay. The university received three complaints against the same man, and dismissed all three complaints.

Where does it say that? Language like this surely doesn't:

Sulkowicz didn’t report the incident at first. But when two classmates told her that Paul had been abusive to them too—one who had been in a long-term relationship with him, the other alleging he groped her—she pressed charges with the administration.

It looks like the girls complained about him to Emma, not the university.

 

[RavenSky]

Apparently not so easy at all given that THREE different women filed complaints against the same man. This goes beyond "he said, she said" yet the university decided there wasn't enough evidence.

I do not think the other girls filed any complaints to the university or the police. They are also not alleging rape.

You think wrong:

The accounts of the two other Columbia students who reported assault, which were not considered relevant evidence in Sulkowicz’s case, though perpetrators of sexual violence tend to be repeat offenders, were also dismissed.

.

Also she isn't even claiming that the two other girls claimed he raped them. One allegedly cites unspecified "abusive" behavior, the other says he groped her. Both fall well short of anal rape even if true.

. Since no one ever claimed that all three students accused him of anal rape, you are presenting yet another strawman. All three women reported sexual assault from the same man, and all three cases were dismissed.

But it seems like he was a shy, introverted kind of person which doesn't really fit an anal rapist thing:

seriously Derec? Are you really reverting back to the deranged scary rapist in the bushes trope?

 

[Sabine Grant]

Typical "cover your ass" phrasing but it is clear from this and other such articles that the author believes the accuser.

. You are a mind-reader, Derec? Because you certainly pretend to be. First telling me what I am thinking, now telling us what every author of every article on this topic *really* believes in spite of actual written and published words stating neutral terms.

Well, it is no different from his comment that this mattress dragging female student " is just bitching because she did not get her way". Derec attributes an awful a lot of ill intentions to females who claim to have been raped or sexually assaulted and based on "mind reading". That whole pattern is of course aggravated by numerous comments on his part (long term observation here) which lack an evenhanded reflection. Reality being that without confirmation(material evidence) that any rape claimant has been "really raped", an evenhanded conclusion would be there is a 50/50 chance that the claim is legitimate or is not.

However, Derec will resort to conclusions not based on that "50/50".

Going back to the OP, if the Californian legislation were to be in Florida, it would change the dynamics of how the Winston case is being handled. Winston would carry the burden to prove that at every single step of physical contacts with the alleged victim, there was a clear/cut continuous consent on her part. To be honest and especially when one party has been consuming alcohol, how are we to expect young adults such as College students who tend to be part of the "College alcohol culture" to remind themselves to always check at every step that the other party is providing continuous consent?


Two weeks ago, as I was visiting my son in Tallahassee, we took a drive by the frats and bars near by the Stadium, about one hour prior to the kick off of the Noles/Clemson game. You had a crowd of students already trashed, some barely standing on their feet while walking towards the Stadium. Lawns and patios trashed with cans, bottles, all indicating alcohol consumption over the course of the day (parties starting as early as the a.m for a game scheduled in the evening). So, there we have a community of College students either drinking moderately or getting wasted expected to retain the necessary awareness to confirm continuous consent.

 

[RavenSky]

Where does it say that? Language like this surely doesn't:

Sulkowicz didn’t report the incident at first. But when two classmates told her that Paul had been abusive to them too—one who had been in a long-term relationship with him, the other alleging he groped her—she pressed charges with the administration.

It looks like the girls complained about him to Emma, not the university.

I've quoted multiple articles saying otherwise.

 

[RavenSky]

To be honest and especially when one party has been consuming alcohol, how are we to expect young adults such as College students who tend to be part of the "College alcohol culture" to remind themselves to always check at every step that the other party is providing continuous consent?

Two weeks ago, as I was visiting my son in Tallahassee, we took a drive by the frats and bars near by the Stadium, about one hour prior to the kick off of the Noles/Clemson game. You had a crowd of students already trashed, some barely standing on their feet while walking towards the Stadium. Lawns and patios trashed with cans, bottles, all indicating alcohol consumption over the course of the day (parties starting as early as the a.m for a game scheduled in the evening). So, there we have a community of College students either drinking moderately or getting wasted expected to retain the necessary awareness to confirm continuous consent.

I agree with you on this, but I do think that perhaps the college drunk culture may start to dissipate much like overall drinking at adult parties has lowered due to strict drunk driving laws.

 

[Rhea]

What is your opinion on the thousands of rape kits that never get tested - the "evidence" that is left unexamined, hence the victim left with nothing to prosecute even though there was evidence, bit no one took it seriously. They were victimized, but no one at the police station cares enough to make the evidence into evidence. What is your opinion of that?

I have stated in numerous threads over the years that I found that sort of neglect to be disgraceful and scandalous and should have serious consequences for the police departments in question. If a rape is not prosecuted just because collected evidence is not processed it is obviously a very different case to where there is no evidence because the accuser waited days or months to report it or where DNA evidence is irrelevant because sex itself is not a contested point.

Do these thousands of cases cause you to conclude that there are (far too many) women being raped whose cases are not being taken seriously?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What is your opinion on the thousands of rape kits that never get tested - the "evidence" that is left unexamined, hence the victim left with nothing to prosecute even though there was evidence, bit no one took it seriously. They were victimized, but no one at the police station cares enough to make the evidence into evidence. What is your opinion of that?

Untested rape kits aren't a matter of "nobody cares", but politicians not budgeting enough money.

 

[RavenSky]

More evidence that Derec's claim is baseless:

Columbia University fielded complaints against 10 undergraduate students for sexual assault last academic year, but the Ivy League school punished none of them.

According to the Huffington Post, Columbia disclosed such information for the first time since coming under fire for improperly handling sexual assault on campus. Of the 10 disciplinary cases regarding rape or an equivalent crime, four are still open.

http://www.universityherald.com/art...school-punished-no-one-for-rape-last-year.htm

If Derec's claim were accurate, we should have more expulsions than not. At Columbia, we have NONE.

There were two cases withdrawn by the complainants, and four are still open.

 

[dx713]

To be honest and especially when one party has been consuming alcohol, how are we to expect young adults such as College students who tend to be part of the "College alcohol culture" to remind themselves to always check at every step that the other party is providing continuous consent?

Two weeks ago, as I was visiting my son in Tallahassee, we took a drive by the frats and bars near by the Stadium, about one hour prior to the kick off of the Noles/Clemson game. You had a crowd of students already trashed, some barely standing on their feet while walking towards the Stadium. Lawns and patios trashed with cans, bottles, all indicating alcohol consumption over the course of the day (parties starting as early as the a.m for a game scheduled in the evening). So, there we have a community of College students either drinking moderately or getting wasted expected to retain the necessary awareness to confirm continuous consent.

I agree with you on this, but I do think that perhaps the college drunk culture may start to dissipate much like overall drinking at adult parties has lowered due to strict drunk driving laws.

Let's hope those new rules are accompanied by a corresponding education effort. (and the funds to support it)
An openness to discuss sex and consent could change the perception of sex, which is now a shameful subject that a lot of youngster think they must be drunk to tackle. Let the perception become "not being drunk might get me laid" instead of "being drunk might get me laid".

 

[Emily Lake]

Don't mean to sound harsh, but that was a whopping Moore-Coulter - and really insulting to those of us who have been having this *discussion* with the same cast of characters for one hell of a lot longer than you have been a member of the board.

What is "Moore-Coulter" supposed to mean?

I don't care that some people vehemently disagree with one piece or the other. I've seen posts in this thread that seem to substantially and materially disagree with both elements. In fact, those two elements have made up a significant bulk of the disagreement in this thread.

My length of time on this board, and my lack of full membership in the "old boys club" that is represented by your dismissal on those grounds seems quite irrelevant to the points that I was making.

 

[Toni]

What is your opinion on the thousands of rape kits that never get tested - the "evidence" that is left unexamined, hence the victim left with nothing to prosecute even though there was evidence, bit no one took it seriously. They were victimized, but no one at the police station cares enough to make the evidence into evidence. What is your opinion of that?

Untested rape kits aren't a matter of "nobody cares", but politicians not budgeting enough money.

Not really. Budgets handed down from legislators typically do not have line items for rape kits, etc. Nor should they need to do. If local police departments place testing of rape kits at a lower priority than say, parking tickets, then I guess that it isn't too hard to draw a conclusion that 'nobody cares.'

 

[Emily Lake]

If they both did the same thing, they should both face the same consequences, or none at all. What's misogynistic about that?

Setting aside Derec's general view on women, I find that I do agree with this sentiment. In cases where both parties are drunk, and sex occurs, I would find it to be unacceptable to deem it rape on the part of one party and not the other. Either both engaged in mutually consensual sex, or both engaged in mutually non-consensual sex due to inebriation and both should be punished for violation of the policy.

I think that there is a cultural assumption that if two people are equally drunk, and sex occurs, then the male took advantage of the female, and it is date rape in which the make was the aggressor. But this isn't a particularly logical or reasonable approach to the situation, in my opinion.