• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

The USA seriously needs to consolidate all their police forces into maybe sixty large departments. One for each state, plus a handful of specialist federal departments, including a couple of powerful new departments that are tasked with investigating and detecting crimes carried out by any of the others (you need two or three of these, so that they can also keep an eye on each other. Base one each in California, New York and Texas, and give them jurisdiction over every police department outside their own home state).

Wikipedia tells me that there are currently 17,985 police departments in the USA, which is at least 17,900 more than you need.
 
Why such consolidation? What do other nations do?
They have a small number of large police departments, similar to the proposal I just outlined for the US.

Australia has one per state (6), plus the federal police, who have national jurisdiction over certain crimes, and also provide the "state" policing services to the territories*.

Scotland has a single national police force, as does Northern Ireland. Wales is divided into four, while England has 40 - 39 territorial forces, based on their 48 county boundaries, with some forces responsible for two of the smaller counties; Plus the Transport Police, whose jurisdiction is limited to the railways.

Germany has 16 state police agencies, plus a few federal departments.

France has three centrally controlled police departments, all with nationwide jurisdiction, but responsible for different areas of law enforcement.

Canada has two federal and five provincial police departments, plus 122 municipal police departments, for a somewhat unwieldy total of 129 departments, or 0.7% of the number of police departments that infest the USA.

As far as I am aware, no other nation on Earth has as many as 1% of the number of police departments that are found in the US.







In Australia, local governments, such as city councils, can employ enforcement officers who are not fully empowered as police; They are generally limited to enforcement of parking restrictions and similar minor offences. I can't find figures on the number that employ such local laws officers. There are 547 such councils n Australia. A similar situation applies in England, where local governments employ "Parking Wardens", which similarly are not officially police forces, and have very limited powers.
 
Why such consolidation? What do other nations do?
Police Scotland comes to mind.
800px-Logo_of_Police_Scotland.svg.png

Before the consolidation, they had regional forces like the "Lothian and Borders Police" of John Rebus fame.

I do agree with bilby that we have way too many police departments. His plan probably goes too far - I think major cities should maintain their departments and there can be several territorial departments in the rest of the states depending on size. After all, all of Scotland is about half the size and half the population of just Georgia, a US state of middling size.
 
After all, all of Scotland is about half the size and half the population of just Georgia, a US state of middling size.
Yeah, that's kinda problematic when foreigners start criticizing the USA.
I'd bet that Atlanta GA has more fentanyl and guns than Scotland and Australia put together.
Tom
 
Ohio apparently had a police shooting recently, 21 year old pregnant woman who was accused by the grocery store of shoplifting alcohol.
article said:
“Get out of the f**king car,” the officer standing in front of the car says, with his gun drawn and his left hand braced on the hood of the car, the video shows.

Young can then be seen turning the wheel of the car as the officer next to her window continues to urge her to exit the vehicle.

“Get out of the f**king car,” the officer in front of the car repeats as the vehicle begins to move slowly forward, the video shows.

A few seconds elapse and then the officer standing in front of the hood fires into the vehicle.
Like no one in that situation made a proper decision. Rolling the car into a officer, probably a bad idea. Drawing your gun at a person who hasn't presented any semblance of a threat, probably a bad idea. In fact a very awful one. How long did it take an officer to lose control of that situation, swearing at the suspect?

An officer pulls a gun over a person who appears to be evading a petty theft. They have her license, this can be managed otherwise. But no, pulls a fucking gun because of Cartman-ism.
 
ffs, who shoots a pregnant woman?

Shocking bodycam footage reveals the moment a pregnant black woman was shot dead by police after she drove into an officer in a Kroger parking lot. Ta'Kiya Young, 21, has two young children and was pregnant with a third when she was shot inside her car in Blendon Township, Ohio last Thursday after rolling her car into a police officer. The unborn child also lost its life.

Daily Mail

Out of control.
 
Yeah, that's kinda problematic when foreigners start criticizing the USA.
I'd bet that Atlanta GA has more fentanyl and guns than Scotland and Australia put together.
That certainly sounds like Atlanta GA is an exemplar of excellence in law enforcement, and is above criticism by any foreigner. :rolleyesa:

"The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them." - Robert Peel
 
Yeah, that's kinda problematic when foreigners start criticizing the USA.
I'd bet that Atlanta GA has more fentanyl and guns than Scotland and Australia put together.
That certainly sounds like Atlanta GA is an exemplar of excellence in law enforcement, and is above criticism by any foreigner. :rolleyesa:

"The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them." - Robert Peel
Eh, fuck that Robert Peel guy... we like doing things our own way here:

dirty harry.jpg
 
That certainly sounds like Atlanta GA is an exemplar of excellence in law enforcement, and is above criticism by any foreigner. :rolleyesa:
Of course there are things to criticize ATLPD for.

TomC's (and my) objection that while >10k police departments are certainly too much, reducing it to 60 underestimates how big US is.
Los Angeles has a population not much smaller than all of Scotland, and NYC is almost twice the size. NYC has a population bigger than any of Australia's states too.

"The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them." - Robert Peel
But measured against what? You can't run a counterfactual experiment with two different police forces on the same population.
Demographics and local culture matter even within the US, comparing internationally and intercontinentally is even more difficult due to not just different demographics but also different national cultures and nationwide legislation (e.g. on guns).
For example, black homicide rate (as both perpetrators and victims) is ~6x higher for blacks compared with whites, and rates of most other crimes like robberies and assaults are significantly higher as well.

So percentage of black people will affect the homicide/crime rates as well.
Atlanta has not been doing that bad before the Pandemic, but Pandemic and the #BLM insurrection really fucked us up, in addition to poor leadership (that Biden tapped Keisha Lance Bottoms for a job in his administration is tragic).
FqTSHrAXwAIQI5X
 
ffs, who shoots a pregnant woman?
A pregnant woman is just as capable of running you over as a non-pregnant one. Also, cops had no way of knowing she was pregnant, even if that did matter to her threat level.
This shoplifter, btw, has a 6 year old while being only 21 years old. So she has a long history of making brilliant life choices.

Shocking bodycam footage reveals the moment a pregnant black woman was shot dead by police after she drove into an officer in a Kroger parking lot.
Emphasis changed to the more relevant section. Her race doesn't matter. Her reproductive status (G3 P2) doesn't matter. What matters is what she did after she shoplifted and refused to exit her vehicle. That is, she used her vehicle as a deadly weapon.
Ta'Kiya Young, 21, has two young children and was pregnant with a third when she was shot inside her car in Blendon Township, Ohio last Thursday after rolling her car into a police officer. The unborn child also lost its life.
She brought it on herself with her actions. First she stole stuff. Then, she refused to exit her vehicle when police caught her. Then, she decided that trying to run a police officer over was a good plan to effect her escape.
Unfortunately, those two kids are likely to become millionaires because of our current political situation.

Out of control.
Yes, she was.
 
Ohio apparently had a police shooting recently, 21 year old pregnant woman who was accused by the grocery store of shoplifting alcohol.
I have seen people defend her and say that police should have just let her go when she refused to get out of her car. We have normalized retail theft to that extent in our society. And that's why thieves are getting so emboldened - most of the time, they suffer zero consequences. I would be very surprised if this was the first time St. Ta'Kiya stole something from a store.
article said:
“Get out of the f**king car,” the officer standing in front of the car says, with his gun drawn and his left hand braced on the hood of the car, the video shows.
And she should have gotten out. Instead of committing assault with a deadly weapon.
Young can then be seen turning the wheel of the car as the officer next to her window continues to urge her to exit the vehicle.
“Get out of the f**king car,” the officer in front of the car repeats as the vehicle begins to move slowly forward, the video shows.
She had been given several opportunities to comply.

Like no one in that situation made a proper decision. Rolling the car into a officer, probably a bad idea.
Probably? Had she injured the officer and gotten away, she'd be facing felony charges. But, I guess certain people would still be defending her. "How she gonna get her money" and all that.

Drawing your gun at a person who hasn't presented any semblance of a threat, probably a bad idea. In fact a very awful one. How long did it take an officer to lose control of that situation, swearing at the suspect?
The situation deteriorated because of Ta'Kiya's actions. She could have complied and surrendered. What are the guidelines for police pulling their firearms at a suspect in Ohio? Do you know?

An officer pulls a gun over a person who appears to be evading a petty theft. They have her license, this can be managed otherwise. But no, pulls a fucking gun because of Cartman-ism.
They have their license plate. But what if she stole the car as well? And if they are not allowed to use force because she is pregnant, then could she not refused to surrender if they showed up at her house too? We need to stop making excuses for these criminals.
 
TomC's (and my) objection that while >10k police departments are certainly too much, reducing it to 60 underestimates how big US is.
Los Angeles has a population not much smaller than all of Scotland, and NYC is almost twice the size. NYC has a population bigger than any of Australia's states too.

Which would be a reasonable objection, if there was a maximum staff level above which a police force becomes unmanageable.

But there isn't.

The limiting factor on how large a police department can be is the size of the jurisdiction in which the law remains (at least approximately) constant.

Within a single state, the law is constant throughout, and a single police force is therefore the most efficient model, certainly in the modern world with rapid communications and fast vehicles.

Of course a more populous state needs more police, more police stations, more police vehicles, etc. etc.; But it doesn't need more police departments.

Bigger police departments are more efficient, can provide better and more consistent training to their officers, are more easily able to afford the latest forensic technology, and are able to ensure that expensive technologies and equipment are less likely to go under-utilised.
 
Ohio apparently had a police shooting recently, 21 year old pregnant woman who was accused by the grocery store of shoplifting alcohol.
I have seen people defend her and say that police should have just let her go when she refused to get out of her car. We have normalized retail theft to that extent in our society. And that's why thieves are getting so emboldened - most of the time, they suffer zero consequences. I would be very surprised if this was the first time St. Ta'Kiya stole something from a store.
article said:
“Get out of the f**king car,” the officer standing in front of the car says, with his gun drawn and his left hand braced on the hood of the car, the video shows.
And she should have gotten out. Instead of committing assault with a deadly weapon.
Young can then be seen turning the wheel of the car as the officer next to her window continues to urge her to exit the vehicle.
“Get out of the f**king car,” the officer in front of the car repeats as the vehicle begins to move slowly forward, the video shows.
She had been given several opportunities to comply.

Like no one in that situation made a proper decision. Rolling the car into a officer, probably a bad idea.
Probably? Had she injured the officer and gotten away, she'd be facing felony charges. But, I guess certain people would still be defending her. "How she gonna get her money" and all that.

Drawing your gun at a person who hasn't presented any semblance of a threat, probably a bad idea. In fact a very awful one. How long did it take an officer to lose control of that situation, swearing at the suspect?
The situation deteriorated because of Ta'Kiya's actions. She could have complied and surrendered. What are the guidelines for police pulling their firearms at a suspect in Ohio? Do you know?

An officer pulls a gun over a person who appears to be evading a petty theft. They have her license, this can be managed otherwise. But no, pulls a fucking gun because of Cartman-ism.
They have their license plate. But what if she stole the car as well? And if they are not allowed to use force because she is pregnant, then could she not refused to surrender if they showed up at her house too? We need to stop making excuses for these criminals.
According to this report - Police shoot pregnant woman
The five-minute video shows a police officer standing in front of her vehicle shooting Young within 30 seconds of the interaction beginning. Young began turning her steering wheel away from the two officers before she accelerated, but as she pulled forward her car started pushing against the officer before he shot her.
The officer was not in any danger unless he was immobile.

Rightly being horrified at the over-reaction of the police is not the same as defending this woman's action. No one is condoning theft or disobeying a police officer's orders. No one here is excusing what this woman did. They are condemning the needless killing of an alleged criminal.

Even if the car was stolen, the police could have followed it and set up road blocks instead of opening fire, so your apologia is an epic fail.
 
This shoplifter, btw, has a 6 year old while being only 21 years old. So she has a long history of making brilliant life choices quite possibly made at least one poor choice in her life, unlike literally everyone else who has ever lived.
FTFY.
Of course, there is an implicit assumption that this victim made a consensual decision when she was fifteen to have sex.
 
This shoplifter, btw, has a 6 year old while being only 21 years old. So she has a long history of making brilliant life choices quite possibly made at least one poor choice in her life, unlike literally everyone else who has ever lived.
FTFY.
Or, depending on the state and/or the circumstances: she was raped and carried the child to term.
 
TomC's (and my) objection that while >10k police departments are certainly too much, reducing it to 60 underestimates how big US is.
Los Angeles has a population not much smaller than all of Scotland, and NYC is almost twice the size. NYC has a population bigger than any of Australia's states too.

Which would be a reasonable objection, if there was a maximum staff level above which a police force becomes unmanageable.

But there isn't.

The limiting factor on how large a police department can be is the size of the jurisdiction in which the law remains (at least approximately) constant.

Within a single state, the law is constant throughout, and a single police force is therefore the most efficient model, certainly in the modern world with rapid communications and fast vehicles.

Of course a more populous state needs more police, more police stations, more police vehicles, etc. etc.; But it doesn't need more police departments.

Bigger police departments are more efficient, can provide better and more consistent training to their officers, are more easily able to afford the latest forensic technology, and are able to ensure that expensive technologies and equipment are less likely to go under-utilised.
Not really. My state, like much of the US, is largely rural, with a couple of large population centers. The terrain is quite varied, from rolling hills, prairie to farmland to forests to lake regions. Some of it is densely populated. Some of it is extremely sparsely populated, remote wilderness. It is not reasonable to expect that police from the nearest large city could be familiar with individuals or situations or terrain in my county. Nor would I expect a police officer from my town or my county to be familiar with the trouble spots in our state capitol, for instance.

Even within my town, speed limits vary, as do traffic conditions, population density, the propensity for wildlife to wander into the road, the number of children, college students, old people, etc. varies wildly by neighborhood. Locals know the best ways to avoid certain traffic pinch points at certain times of the day or to get around a train that's coming through town or alternate routes when there's construction or an accident or it's garbage pick up day or bus pick up/drop off times. And shift changes. Definitely streets/intersections you want to avoid when early shift ends. The county in which I live has everything from a city of about 25000 to mostly rural/very small towns and interstates and highways and....dirt roads that wind up and down steep inclines and heavily wooded areas. Plus, we have winters where all of that gets covered by snow and ice, and the weather can be 20 below (F) so you definitely need to know where you are and where you're going and how to get there. Fast cars do not help.

Police in the larger cities in my state often are called upon to administer Narcan. I would be surprised if that is something officers in my town ever do or are trained to do.

I just did some googling and discovered that the population of Queensland Au is 5.185M and has 12,000 police officers, meaning that there is one police officer for every 432 citizens. That's more than twice the number of officers/citizen in my town. My state has a population slightly over that of Queensland and only about 11,000 police officers.
 
TomC's (and my) objection that while >10k police departments are certainly too much, reducing it to 60 underestimates how big US is.
Los Angeles has a population not much smaller than all of Scotland, and NYC is almost twice the size. NYC has a population bigger than any of Australia's states too.

Which would be a reasonable objection, if there was a maximum staff level above which a police force becomes unmanageable.

But there isn't.

The limiting factor on how large a police department can be is the size of the jurisdiction in which the law remains (at least approximately) constant.

Within a single state, the law is constant throughout, and a single police force is therefore the most efficient model, certainly in the modern world with rapid communications and fast vehicles.

Of course a more populous state needs more police, more police stations, more police vehicles, etc. etc.; But it doesn't need more police departments.

Bigger police departments are more efficient, can provide better and more consistent training to their officers, are more easily able to afford the latest forensic technology, and are able to ensure that expensive technologies and equipment are less likely to go under-utilised.
Not really. My state, like much of the US, is largely rural, with a couple of large population centers. The terrain is quite varied, from rolling hills, prairie to farmland to forests to lake regions. Some of it is densely populated. Some of it is extremely sparsely populated, remote wilderness. It is not reasonable to expect that police from the nearest large city could be familiar with individuals or situations or terrain in my county. Nor would I expect a police officer from my town or my county to be familiar with the trouble spots in our state capitol, for instance.

Even within my town, speed limits vary, as do traffic conditions, population density, the propensity for wildlife to wander into the road, the number of children, college students, old people, etc. varies wildly by neighborhood. Locals know the best ways to avoid certain traffic pinch points at certain times of the day or to get around a train that's coming through town or alternate routes when there's construction or an accident or it's garbage pick up day or bus pick up/drop off times. And shift changes. Definitely streets/intersections you want to avoid when early shift ends. The county in which I live has everything from a city of about 25000 to mostly rural/very small towns and interstates and highways and....dirt roads that wind up and down steep inclines and heavily wooded areas. Plus, we have winters where all of that gets covered by snow and ice, and the weather can be 20 below (F) so you definitely need to know where you are and where you're going and how to get there. Fast cars do not help.

Police in the larger cities in my state often are called upon to administer Narcan. I would be surprised if that is something officers in my town ever do or are trained to do.
So what? That doesn't imply that they have to have different paymasters or managers. One police department is more than capable of having hundreds (or even thousands) of police stations or precincts, each with its own specialisations and locally relevant skills.
I just did some googling and discovered that the population of Queensland Au is 5.185M and has 12,000 police officers, meaning that there is one police officer for every 432 citizens. That's more than twice the number of officers/citizen in my town. My state has a population slightly over that of Queensland and only about 11,000 police officers.
And those police cover everyone in the state, from the urban and suburban areas of Brisbane, a city of 2.6 million residents in a region with 3.8 million inhabitants, through to the very sparsely populated areas of the North and West, to the mining towns, to the port cities such as Townsville, and the tourist hubs like Cairns.

Each has its own police requirements; All are policed by the one Queensland Police Service.

So the taxpayers of Queensland pay only for one police academy, one police HR department, one police payroll department, one procurement department (which can get bulk discounts on all the equipment, uniforms, vehicles, etc., etc.), one set of senior officers and managers, one forensics department, one police dog training facility ...

What benefit would accrue if the Mount Isa police (for example) had to either have their own version of all of these things, or do without them, or go cap-in-hand begging the Brisbane Police to allow them to use the big city facilities?

How would that be better for anyone in Queensland?
 
TomC's (and my) objection that while >10k police departments are certainly too much, reducing it to 60 underestimates how big US is.
Los Angeles has a population not much smaller than all of Scotland, and NYC is almost twice the size. NYC has a population bigger than any of Australia's states too.

Which would be a reasonable objection, if there was a maximum staff level above which a police force becomes unmanageable.

But there isn't.

The limiting factor on how large a police department can be is the size of the jurisdiction in which the law remains (at least approximately) constant.

Within a single state, the law is constant throughout, and a single police force is therefore the most efficient model, certainly in the modern world with rapid communications and fast vehicles.

Of course a more populous state needs more police, more police stations, more police vehicles, etc. etc.; But it doesn't need more police departments.

Bigger police departments are more efficient, can provide better and more consistent training to their officers, are more easily able to afford the latest forensic technology, and are able to ensure that expensive technologies and equipment are less likely to go under-utilised.
Not really. My state, like much of the US, is largely rural, with a couple of large population centers. The terrain is quite varied, from rolling hills, prairie to farmland to forests to lake regions. Some of it is densely populated. Some of it is extremely sparsely populated, remote wilderness. It is not reasonable to expect that police from the nearest large city could be familiar with individuals or situations or terrain in my county. Nor would I expect a police officer from my town or my county to be familiar with the trouble spots in our state capitol, for instance.

Even within my town, speed limits vary, as do traffic conditions, population density, the propensity for wildlife to wander into the road, the number of children, college students, old people, etc. varies wildly by neighborhood. Locals know the best ways to avoid certain traffic pinch points at certain times of the day or to get around a train that's coming through town or alternate routes when there's construction or an accident or it's garbage pick up day or bus pick up/drop off times. And shift changes. Definitely streets/intersections you want to avoid when early shift ends. The county in which I live has everything from a city of about 25000 to mostly rural/very small towns and interstates and highways and....dirt roads that wind up and down steep inclines and heavily wooded areas. Plus, we have winters where all of that gets covered by snow and ice, and the weather can be 20 below (F) so you definitely need to know where you are and where you're going and how to get there. Fast cars do not help.

Police in the larger cities in my state often are called upon to administer Narcan. I would be surprised if that is something officers in my town ever do or are trained to do.
So what? That doesn't imply that they have to have different paymasters or managers. One police department is more than capable of having hundreds (or even thousands) of police stations or precincts, each with its own specialisations and locally relevant skills.
I just did some googling and discovered that the population of Queensland Au is 5.185M and has 12,000 police officers, meaning that there is one police officer for every 432 citizens. That's more than twice the number of officers/citizen in my town. My state has a population slightly over that of Queensland and only about 11,000 police officers.
And those police cover everyone in the state, from the urban and suburban areas of Brisbane, a city of 2.6 million residents in a region with 3.8 million inhabitants, through to the very sparsely populated areas of the North and West, to the mining towns, to the port cities such as Townsville, and the tourist hubs like Cairns.

Each has its own police requirements; All are policed by the one Queensland Police Service.

So the taxpayers of Queensland pay only for one police academy, one police HR department, one police payroll department, one procurement department (which can get bulk discounts on all the equipment, uniforms, vehicles, etc., etc.), one set of senior officers and managers, one forensics department, one police dog training facility ...

What benefit would accrue if the Mount Isa police (for example) had to either have their own version of all of these things, or do without them, or go cap-in-hand begging the Brisbane Police to allow them to use the big city facilities?

How would that be better for anyone in Queensland?
Right. And in my state, those 11,000 or so police cover a state that includes 5.7 M or so inhabitants who live anywhere from densely populated cities/metropolitan areas to extremely sparsely populated, heavily forested land that shares a border with another country.

I understand that in your country, centralization of such services is the norm. In my country it is NOT the norm and in fact, is counter to the norm. While everyone in my state lives under the same state and federal laws, there are local statutes, usually pertaining to speed/traffic law and building code.

I am happy to accept that your centralized system works well for your country/state. It is not something that would work well in mine.

Furthermore, the decentralization of police forces in the US and in my state has NOT lead to more police required. In fact, it's less police required.

That said, I'd dearly love to have my state/the entire US adopt a much more sane gun policy, from everyone from ordinary citizens to police officers.
 
Back
Top Bottom