Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

[bilby]

The USA seriously needs to consolidate all their police forces into maybe sixty large departments. One for each state, plus a handful of specialist federal departments, including a couple of powerful new departments that are tasked with investigating and detecting crimes carried out by any of the others (you need two or three of these, so that they can also keep an eye on each other. Base one each in California, New York and Texas, and give them jurisdiction over every police department outside their own home state).

Wikipedia tells me that there are currently 17,985 police departments in the USA, which is at least 17,900 more than you need.

You realize that California has about 70 times the population as Wyoming, right? Should the resources for police be basically evenly divided between those two states?

No.

What would make you imagine that I would think that?

It's perfectly possible for two police departments to be of very different sizes.

The reason to have one per state is that police need to know the law, and the law often varies significantly between states.

Since each state does already have its own police forces your proposal is to have statewide forces only and not break up into smaller, local forces?

Yes.

I guess it isn’t clear to me what exactly you are suggesting and why it would be better than what always exists.

A wise man once said:

Within a single state, the law is constant throughout, and a single police force is therefore the most efficient model, certainly in the modern world with rapid communications and fast vehicles.

Of course a more populous state needs more police, more police stations, more police vehicles, etc. etc.; But it doesn't need more police departments.

Bigger police departments are more efficient, can provide better and more consistent training to their officers, are more easily able to afford the latest forensic technology, and are able to ensure that expensive technologies and equipment are less likely to go under-utilised.

Is it better to have one force that serves 35 million people? Might that not bend under its own weight of bureaucracy?

Why? What do you think limits the maximum size of an effective bureaucracy?

It feels like saying that each state should have a single university and all the students should go there rather than break up into individual campuses and college systems. Would try at make sense too?

Having a single State university (with a number of campuses in appropriate locations) would seem to be a good idea, yes. Why not? What benefits arise from duplicating the various administrative functions that could easily be scaled up?

Why have more than one HR department, more than one procurement department, etc? How does this duplication of costs help the students or researchers?

 

[Shadowy Man]

A wise man once said:

Within a single state, the law is constant throughout, and a single police force is therefore the most efficient model, certainly in the modern world with rapid communications and fast vehicles.

and if the laws are not constant throughout a state? If there are county and municipal level laws and regulations?

 

[Toni]

It's a statistical fact that black people are arrested for and convicted of crimes more often than white people. Which is NOT the same thing as actually committing more crimes than white people.

So your contention is that blacks do not commit e.g. homicides or robberies at higher rates than whites, but that they just get arrested and convicted more? What do you base this contention on, other than that it fits your far leftist race ideology?
But let's look a little closer. With homicides, victims are also most likely the same race as the perpetrator. Which means that blacks are also victims of homicide far more than whites.
Black Americans Are Killed At 12 Times The Rate Of People In Other Developed Countries
Or look at FBI data.
View attachment 44139
Keep in mind that there are a lot more white people in the US than black people, lest you try to be slick and compare raw numbers.

This does not fit your hypothesis that there is no difference in crime rates, just in arrest/conviction rates.

White people are often given passes for crimes that black people are arrested for, tried and convicted for and sentenced much more harshly than a white person in the same circumstances.

Bullshit. If anything, blacks are more likely to get a pass these days. Take the infamous case of Jena 6. Or the 2020 insurrectionists, most of whom were not prosecuted and the few that were got lenient sentences.
Like one year for burning down a police vehicle and handing out Molotov cocktails to fellow rioters. Or ten years for killing a man during an arson. In that case the prosecutor working for Biden/Garland DOJ explicitly called for leniency because he supported the arsonist's politics. Compare that to 15 or 18 years January 6th rioters are getting.

This harshness of punishment starts in pre-K. This has been discussed before, and stats have been posted before. You simply refuse to acknowledge that people are treated differently because of the color of their skin.

It has been discussed before. It has been pointed out to you that your methodology is flawed. Just because black pre-K kids get disciplined more often does not mean they are being treated differently. It could be because they misbehave more often. You assume rates of misbehavior must be equal as an article of faith, and thus assume any discrepancy in punishment rates is due to racism, not behavior.

I’m sorry, Derec, but I’m writing about things I’ve observed, including a (white) family member who only went to jail years after he should have done because he was a nice good looking white boy from a good neighborhood. That’s not the only observation but yeah. My kid’s noticed they were out with not white friends who got followed and chased out of stores…and how color-affiliated that attention was. And how unwarranted. It starts very young. Very.

Yes, most crimes are committed by persons known to their victims, especially assaults. Which makes white fear of black people rather comical if it were not so dangerous to black people.

Then, too, are disparities in criminal charges, sentencing. Who gets off with a warning. I write this as someone who has gotten off with a warning more than once —largely because I’m a very innocuous looking white lady. A couple of redundancies in that last sentence. I’m definitely not complaining.

Personal observation aside, data supports my assertions that black peoples are charged more often and for harsher crimes and receive longer sentences than do white people for exactly the same behavior. Starting at pre-K.

 

[laughing dog]

Unlike you, I made no assumption about consent. I pointed out it is possible she did not consent.

There was no reason for that speculation.I did not make any assumptions, I merely stated that no reason was provided to speculate in that direction.
Also, why do you (or Toni) not speculat about consent with male shootees who became parents at the same age?

You assumed she had consensual sex that resulted in her giving birth when she was 15. There no reason for you to bring up that fact or to make an assertion about consent.

I am not smearing anybody. "To smear somebody" means "to damage the reputation of (someone) by false accusations; slander." I have not done that.

Of course you have. You are trotting irrelevant history with a biased slant.

Of course it is. Her past made her what she was the day of her death. What she was influenced the choices she made. Including the choice to steal, to refuse to get out of the car, and finally, to drive into the police officer.

You have made no rational argument as to why having a baby at the age of 15 influenced her actions that got her killed.

Unlike you, I at least have some facts.

No, you don’t.

 

[Toni]

If she was 15 when she gave birth to her oldest child, she would have legally been unable to give consent to sex.

Depends on the age of her partner, surely. But there is also a difference between actual consent and legal consent. Laws do not necessarily have anything to do with reality, just with what state can charge somebody with. If a state were to raise age of consent to 21, that does not mean 20 year olds suddenly lose their actual ability to consent.

She was accused of stealing booze from Kroger. There is no evidence that this actually happened.

I am sure she didnu nothing ...
Hey, laughing dog, the excuses for Ta'Kiya have already started on here, just as I predicted.

As far as I can tell, the only accusations against her, aside from your ugly and hypocritical accusations, are of petty crimes.

Assault with a deadly weapon is not a "petty crime".

Legally, she was unable to give consent if the person who fathered her oldest child was older than 17. Just as, legally, she could not have driven a car, voted, signed a contract, quit school, smoked a cigarette, purchased alcohol, gotten a tattoo or a piercing at 15.

I suppose it has not occurred to you that if she had a drinking problem that it could have been as a result of a history of sexual assault, forced pregnancy/childbirth and a culture that shames and blames 15 year olds for pregnancy by forcing them to give birth and raise the baby. Even if the sex were ( not legally because of her young age) consensual, it is not necessarily true that she was mature enough to be able to handle a sexual relationship with ( let’s assume) someone under 18. It would not be at all surprising if alcohol were involved as a precursor to the sex or to deal with the emotional fallout of sex, pregnancy and childbearing before she was old enough to drive. Throw in a break up ( most 15 year olds do not maintain a romantic relationship with their significant other) and yeah, it’s not hard to see why she might drink. Lots of married people with kids they can’t afford drink too much.

 

[Derec]

The car was barely moving. The officer was in no real danger unless he was either immobile or too fucking stupid or stubborn to move

That is false. It was not "barely moving" according to the video.

Many people have defended the police killing unarmed black people before on this forum. Hmmm.

Ta'Kiya wasn't unarmed.

Note that people have defended and continue to defend police for killing unarmed black people like George Floyd and Tamir Rice.

Tamir Rice was not unarmed. He had a realistic-looking replica. Such realistic replicas have been used to rob people with. Sometimes with deadly consequences for the robber.

Hell, in this thread, someone basically blamed Brionna Taylor for her death because she "lived with scum" even though the police were at the wrong address and shot through a wall to kill her!!!!!

Citation that she was blamed for her own death?

 

[Derec]

Legally, she was unable to give consent if the person who fathered her oldest child was older than 17.

Even with that, you don't know how old her first baby daddy was.

Just as, legally, she could not have driven a car, voted, signed a contract, quit school, smoked a cigarette, purchased alcohol, gotten a tattoo or a piercing at 15.

True, and if she had done any or all of these things, we would not be pretending that she did not have agency to chose those behaviors. If she smoked, drove, drank and/or did drugs at 15, it was because she chose those things. And most likely the same would be the case with choosing to have sex. Law does not necessarily capture people's agency or choices.

I suppose it has not occurred to you that if she had a drinking problem that it could have been as a result of a history of sexual assault, forced pregnancy/childbirth and a culture that shames and blames 15 year olds for pregnancy by forcing them to give birth and raise the baby.

That is pure speculation. Sure, these things are possible, but we have no reason to think this.
And I never see you (or others) speculating about choices teenage boys make.

Even if the sex were ( not legally because of her young age) consensual, it is not necessarily true that she was mature enough to be able to handle a sexual relationship with ( let’s assume) someone under 18.

It is probably not a good idea to have sex at 15. It is certainly not a good idea to have unprotected sex at 15. But unless she was raped, she made that choice. But we all make choices. Even at 15. Sometimes, bad choices follow us for the rest of our lives. Good ones too, but nobody complains about those.

It would not be at all surprising if alcohol were involved as a precursor to the sex or to deal with the emotional fallout of sex, pregnancy and childbearing before she was old enough to drive. Throw in a break up ( most 15 year olds do not maintain a romantic relationship with their significant other) and yeah, it’s not hard to see why she might drink. Lots of married people with kids they can’t afford drink too much.

In any case, that was 6 years ago. She had plenty of time to learn from her poor choices as a teen. Instead, she compounded them. She got pregnant two more times. She stole booze. Not good choices.

 

[laughing dog]

The car was barely moving. The officer was in no real danger unless he was either immobile or too fucking stupid or stubborn to move

That is false. It was not "barely moving" [according to the video.

The officer was standing up against it when it was still.

Tamir Rice was not unarmed. He had a realistic-looking replica. Such realistic replicas have been used to rob people with. Sometimes with deadly consequences for the robber.

He was unarmed. It was a toy.

 

[Elixir]

Georgia teacher faces backlash after blaming Breonna Taylor for her own death

 

[Derec]

Georgia teacher faces backlash after blaming Breonna Taylor for her own death

It's pretty fucked up that a teacher might lose her job over an opinion because of snowflake students, but claim by laughing dog was that somebody on this thread was blaming BT for her own death. I doubt that teacher was posting here.

 

[laughing dog]

In any case, that was 6 years ago. She had plenty of time to learn from her poor choices as a teen. Instead, she compounded them. She got pregnant two more times. She stole booze. Not good choices.

And you know those pregnancies were a choice because…?

 

[Derec]

The officer was standing up against it when it was still.

Doesn't mean the car was not accelerating at a rate that can't be dismissed as "barely moving".

He was unarmed. It was a toy.

It was a realistic looking replica, defaced to resemble a real semiauto handgun even more. That counts as being armed. Such replicas have been used in robberies, and use of them qualifies as "armed robbery". Furthermore, several idiots used such replicas to rob people and got killed in the process. I remember Tyre King (not much older than Tamir Rice), Darius Smith and Quanice Hayes but I am sure there have been more.

 

[Derec]

And you know those pregnancies were a choice because…?

I have seen no reason to speculate that they weren't.

 

[laughing dog]

And you know those pregnancies were a choice because…?

I have seen no reason to speculate that they weren't.

Of course you don’t. It is easier to conflate speculation with fact to tell a story consistent with one’s beliefs.

 

[laughing dog]

The officer was standing up against it when it was still.

Doesn't mean the car was not accelerating at a rate that can't be dismissed as "barely moving".

“Still” means it wasn’t accelerating.

It was a realistic looking replica, defaced to resemble a real semiauto handgun even more. That counts as being armed.

No, it doesn’t since the only way it can harm anyone is either as a projectile or a bludgeon. Are you seriously making that claim?

Yes, the two officers believed it was a real weapon because they didn’t bother to take the time to find out or to even let him act in a threatening manner. But their mistaken belief that Rice had a real firearm does not make that a toy a real fire arm.

 

[Toni]

Legally, she was unable to give consent if the person who fathered her oldest child was older than 17.

Even with that, you don't know how old her first baby daddy was.

Just as, legally, she could not have driven a car, voted, signed a contract, quit school, smoked a cigarette, purchased alcohol, gotten a tattoo or a piercing at 15.

True, and if she had done any or all of these things, we would not be pretending that she did not have agency to chose those behaviors. If she smoked, drove, drank and/or did drugs at 15, it was because she chose those things. And most likely the same would be the case with choosing to have sex. Law does not necessarily capture people's agency or choices.

I suppose it has not occurred to you that if she had a drinking problem that it could have been as a result of a history of sexual assault, forced pregnancy/childbirth and a culture that shames and blames 15 year olds for pregnancy by forcing them to give birth and raise the baby.

That is pure speculation. Sure, these things are possible, but we have no reason to think this.
And I never see you (or others) speculating about choices teenage boys make.

Even if the sex were ( not legally because of her young age) consensual, it is not necessarily true that she was mature enough to be able to handle a sexual relationship with ( let’s assume) someone under 18.

It is probably not a good idea to have sex at 15. It is certainly not a good idea to have unprotected sex at 15. But unless she was raped, she made that choice. But we all make choices. Even at 15. Sometimes, bad choices follow us for the rest of our lives. Good ones too, but nobody complains about those.

It would not be at all surprising if alcohol were involved as a precursor to the sex or to deal with the emotional fallout of sex, pregnancy and childbearing before she was old enough to drive. Throw in a break up ( most 15 year olds do not maintain a romantic relationship with their significant other) and yeah, it’s not hard to see why she might drink. Lots of married people with kids they can’t afford drink too much.

In any case, that was 6 years ago. She had plenty of time to learn from her poor choices as a teen. Instead, she compounded them. She got pregnant two more times. She stole booze. Not good choices.

A 2 year old can make the decision to eat PlaDoh or a Tide pod or to unlatch the door and walk around the block or put a fork in an electric socket.

If you consider following an impulse the same thing as making a decision.

The reason statutory rape exist is because people under certain ages do not have the brain development or intellectual or social development to ‘make decisions’ about things like drinking alcohol, or having sex. They are unable to anticipate the consequences, and the consequences have an outsized effect on them and their future health and well-being.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's just fucking ridiculous

You're insulting ridiculous!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So add car theft and resisting with or without violence to the shoplifting charge. The killing is not remotely justified. She was not a mortal threat to the cops or the public by any stretch. Cop standing in front of the car with weapon drawn and shouting obscenities is not an appropriate initial response. It is bordering on malicious escalation.

If the car is stolen they don't know who it is.

And is it an escalation? She's the one who got in the car and started it. He blocked her escape, she chose attempted murder as a response to being blocked in.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The officer was standing up against it when it was still.

Doesn't mean the car was not accelerating at a rate that can't be dismissed as "barely moving".

He was unarmed. It was a toy.

It was a realistic looking replica, defaced to resemble a real semiauto handgun even more. That counts as being armed. Such replicas have been used in robberies, and use of them qualifies as "armed robbery". Furthermore, several idiots used such replicas to rob people and got killed in the process. I remember Tyre King (not much older than Tamir Rice), Darius Smith and Quanice Hayes but I am sure there have been more.

We had a local case. Cop saw a car that was on the hot sheet. Called for backup, followed. Even though he wasn't running hot the driver took off anyway, didn't know where he was going and cornered himself. (A 4-lane road dead-ended because the highway came through and the bridge hadn't been built yet.) The driver gets out of the car and draws on the officer. Realistic replica.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The officer was standing up against it when it was still.

Doesn't mean the car was not accelerating at a rate that can't be dismissed as "barely moving".

“Still” means it wasn’t accelerating.

You're trying to confuse the situation by bringing up irrelevant meanings.

He was in front of the car blocking her in. Still. Then she steps on the gas and he steps on the trigger.

Yes, the two officers believed it was a real weapon because they didn’t bother to take the time to find out or to even let him act in a threatening manner. But their mistaken belief that Rice had a real firearm does not make that a toy a real fire arm.

Drawing a gun in an inappropriate situations is acting in a threatening manner. Typically it's enough for a brandishing a firearm charge.

Locally, misdemeanor with up to 6 months in jail.