Problems with the Problem of Evil

[steve_bank]

What brought you to a belief in God, the bible, Christianity? Did you just decide to believe as an act of will? One moment you were not convinced, the next you believed?

I never started to believe God exists.
I never had a choice.

Of course not, conviction is a process brought about by many elements, family, culture, life experiences, needs, wants.

Nope. Not everyone acquires their conviction about God gradually.

Had you been born in Arabia in a Muslim, you would be raised as a Muslim. Maybe travel or wider reading may have changed your thinking, but that is also a process of change, neither free will or a matter of will.

I was born into a hedonistic, scientistic, materialistic, secular, liberal, Western culture.

My religion? The God of Abraham - Bronze age, Mesopotamia...

What went wrong?

A bit to unpack in the last sentences

A typical Christian false equivalency. Objective science equates to a morality which it does not. 'Science is out to destroy religion' can be heard on FOX.

Secular and liberal equate to immorality.

 

[steve_bank]

One quote mines the bible for a passage that fits your position on an issue. Another Christian finds a counter quote. For me that defines a moving goal post.

Your definition of a "moving goal post" is when one person argues for one philosophical perspective, and then a different person argues for a different philosophical perspective? So, basically whenever anyone argues for any philosophical perspective, they are "moving a goalpost", since someone somewhere disagrees with them yet broadly speaking belongs to the same group as them?

Sorry, I am just an unsophisticated Internet poster. Your deep philosophical words are too deep for me.

Have pity on me.

 

[Politesse]

One quote mines the bible for a passage that fits your position on an issue. Another Christian finds a counter quote. For me that defines a moving goal post.

Your definition of a "moving goal post" is when one person argues for one philosophical perspective, and then a different person argues for a different philosophical perspective? So, basically whenever anyone argues for any philosophical perspective, they are "moving a goalpost", since someone somewhere disagrees with them yet broadly speaking belongs to the same group as them?

Sorry, I am just an unsophisticated Internet poster. Your deep philosophical words are too deep for me.

Have pity on me.

Well, don't cite a logical fallacy if you don't want to talk logic. Words have meaning.

 

[Lion IRC]

What do you think about the concept of epistemic pragmatism? ...the process of deliberately raising or lowering the epistemic bar - standard of proof - depending on one's pragmatic preferences.

Lion

If you are accusing us if being shifty using a more common term you are defining what I think we see as Christianity.

I'm not accusing you of anything.

I asked DBT a question - about whether deliberately raising or lowering the epistemic bar depending on one's pragmatic preferences amounts to a (free will) choice of what to believe?

It is stock and trade for politicians. Had to look it up to be honest. Where did you fid the trem?

If you think epistemic pragmatism is synonymous with being 'shifty' that's a pretty harsh accusation.

Do you think there are atheists who use this same type of selective, pragmatic, motivated reasoning when it comes to the God debate?

For any given claim about God, the atheist can raise the epistemic bar by using phrases like... extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Along with epistemic pragmatism do you understand situational ethics?

Yes.

One quote mines the bible for a passage that fits your position on an issue. Another Christian finds a counter quote.

For me that defines a moving goal post.

As Politesse mentioned, two different people with different takes on 'what the bible says' doesn't amount to them shifting the goal posts. But I understand that from where you're standing it might seem like the goal posts move depending on who you are speaking with.

 

[Lion IRC]

A bit to unpack in the last sentences

You dont have to 'unpack' sentences.
Especially not, if you mistakenly think there must be some 'accusation' hidden in there just waiting to be found if you only look hard enough.

A typical Christian false equivalency. Objective science equates to a morality which it does not.

I dont think youre using the term 'false equivalency' correctly. It either doesn't mean what you think it means or you're misunderstanding what I wrote.

I said...I was born into a hedonistic, scientistic, materialistic, secular, liberal, Western culture.

This is not a claim that science = hedonism.
This is not a claim that secular = materialistic.
This is not a claim that western = liberal.

I'm saying those are all found in the modern culture where I was born and raised. So why do I think the same things about God as those so-called illiterate Bronze Age goat hearders who lived in Mesopotamia?

'Science is out to destroy religion' can be heard on FOX.

I don't watch FOX so I'll take your word for it.

Secular and liberal equate to immorality.

Do they?

 

[Elixir]

why do I think the same things about God as those so-called illiterate Bronze Age goat hearders who lived in Mesopotamia?

You DON'T.
You would have to be a goat herder in Mesopotamia ca 500 CE to have any idea what they thought about God. All you know is what a very few people wrote down about words and events, generations after the alleged facts.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

What brought you to a belief in God, the bible, Christianity? Did you just decide to believe as an act of will? One moment you were not convinced, the next you believed?

I never started to believe God exists.
I never had a choice.

Of course not, conviction is a process brought about by many elements, family, culture, life experiences, needs, wants.

Nope. Not everyone acquires their conviction about God gradually.

Had you been born in Arabia in a Muslim, you would be raised as a Muslim. Maybe travel or wider reading may have changed your thinking, but that is also a process of change, neither free will or a matter of will.

I was born into a hedonistic, scientistic, materialistic, secular, liberal, Western culture.

My religion? The God of Abraham - Bronze age, Mesopotamia...

What went wrong?

You weren't born believing in God, you learnt about it through exposure, just like we all learn our native language.
Ironically, if your statement were true that you never started to believe in God, then that same statement can be applied to the universe.
Also, if you were born in the USA, or indeed probably any other nation, then you weren't born into the society you describe. More like born into a puritanical. anti-intellectual, highly religious/supernaturalistic, conservative culture - you got the Western part right.
Anyway, what is more relevant is what your parents believed, and what environment you were exposed to as a child.

 

[Lion IRC]

why do I think the same things about God as those so-called illiterate Bronze Age goat hearders who lived in Mesopotamia?

You DON'T.

Yes, I do.

You would have to be a goat herder in Mesopotamia ca 500 CE to have any idea what they thought about God.

You're not me.
And by your own logic, since youre not a Bronze Age goat herder you cant tell me that I dont share with them a common view of God. Monotheistic. Omnipotent. Abrahamic. Past-eternal. Morally superlative. Immanent....

All you know is what a very few people wrote down about words and events, generations after the alleged facts.

You're not me.
You're not in a position to tell me I haven't shared the same experiences of God that they had.

You use the term "generations after" but in the bible you will see generation after generation having the experience you claim isnt possible me because...

...all you know is what a very few people wrote down about words and events, generations after

Since when does something being written about in antiquity prevent me from having the same experience?

 

[steve_bank]

One quote mines the bible for a passage that fits your position on an issue. Another Christian finds a counter quote. For me that defines a moving goal post.

Your definition of a "moving goal post" is when one person argues for one philosophical perspective, and then a different person argues for a different philosophical perspective? So, basically whenever anyone argues for any philosophical perspective, they are "moving a goalpost", since someone somewhere disagrees with them yet broadly speaking belongs to the same group as them?

Sorry, I am just an unsophisticated Internet poster. Your deep philosophical words are too deep for me.

Have pity on me.

Well, don't cite a logical fallacy if you don't want to talk logic. Words have meaning.

The real Politesse emerges.

You almost never actuary take a position r respond to what is said of Christianity. You sit back and nit pick.

You sound more like a Christian apologist but you never explicitly articulate what you actually think about Christianity. That would open you to questions and critique. Your usual response is a non response.

For example you said humans are by nature good. I asked on what basis do you make that assertion. No response.

You typically make a federal case when I use terms as used collegiality and you cite dictionary definitions.

Christians move the goal post, that in p[art is what apologetics is all about.

 

[steve_bank]

What brought you to a belief in God, the bible, Christianity? Did you just decide to believe as an act of will? One moment you were not convinced, the next you believed?

I never started to believe God exists.
I never had a choice.

Of course not, conviction is a process brought about by many elements, family, culture, life experiences, needs, wants.

Nope. Not everyone acquires their conviction about God gradually.

Had you been born in Arabia in a Muslim, you would be raised as a Muslim. Maybe travel or wider reading may have changed your thinking, but that is also a process of change, neither free will or a matter of will.

I was born into a hedonistic, scientistic, materialistic, secular, liberal, Western culture.

My religion? The God of Abraham - Bronze age, Mesopotamia...

What went wrong?

You weren't born believing in God, you learnt about it through exposure, just like we all learn our native language.
Ironically, if your statement were true that you never started to believe in God, then that same statement can be applied to the universe.
Also, if you were born in the USA, or indeed probably any other nation, then you weren't born into the society you describe. More like born into a puritanical. anti-intellectual, highly religious/supernaturalistic, conservative culture - you got the Western part right.
Anyway, what is more relevant is what your parents believed, and what environment you were exposed to as a child.

Welcome the fray spacetime.

 

[steve_bank]

A bit to unpack in the last sentences

You dont have to 'unpack' sentences.
Especially not, if you mistakenly think there must be some 'accusation' hidden in there just waiting to be found if you only look hard enough.

A typical Christian false equivalency. Objective science equates to a morality which it does not.

I dont think youre using the term 'false equivalency' correctly. It either doesn't mean what you think it means or you're misunderstanding what I wrote.

I said...I was born into a hedonistic, scientistic, materialistic, secular, liberal, Western culture.

This is not a claim that science = hedonism.
This is not a claim that secular = materialistic.
This is not a claim that western = liberal.

I'm saying those are all found in the modern culture where I was born and raised. So why do I think the same things about God as those so-called illiterate Bronze Age goat hearders who lived in Mesopotamia?

'Science is out to destroy religion' can be heard on FOX.

I don't watch FOX so I'll take your word for it.

Secular and liberal equate to immorality.

Do they?

Another is Christians inferimg atheism equates to imaorlity or a llcck of erthics. Atheism simply means a rejction of deites. It infers nothing abot a beilef ot r marality.

Ypir use of the word hedomism in context of relgion tells me something about what you believeand think.


Conservves use a false equvalnce of ocialism with communism to paint social porgms as leading to communism nd all that implies.

Liewise science which objecvely refutes religious clams like Young Earth Creationism is falsey equated to a moral ideolgy and sometmes evil as fear ngering too dfelct the refutaion.

By the way, genetics and evolutionpretty much refutes any biblical Genesis derived tme lne.

Ad as to goal posts whoan d what god is has always been a moving traget. The ultimate goal post shift is to say god is beyond our undertsnding.

 

[Lion IRC]

You weren't born believing in God,

Yes I was.

...you learnt about it through exposure, just like we all learn our native language.

Learning more and more about God over time doesn't diminish the fact that a person might have always thought God is real.

Ironically, if your statement were true that you never started to believe in God, then that same statement can be applied to the universe.

Why is that ironic?

Also, if you were born in the USA, or indeed probably any other nation, then you weren't born into the society you describe.

My (unoriginal, uncontroversial) description of the society and culture I was born into is accurate. I didn't invent the word secular. Or liberal. Or materialistic. To say that Western culture is hedonistic seems to me more like a frank admission than a polemic.

And the frequently used epithet "illiterate Bronze Age goat herders" is pretty much a declaration of how different such a culture is compared to our... wait for it... you know what comes next... our hedonistic, scientistic, materialistic, secular, liberal, Western culture

Anyway, what is more relevant is what your parents believed, and what environment you were exposed to as a child.

Not more relevant. Equally relevant.

It's definitely important what was thought by generations after generations. We can be grateful they wrote stuff down. Right?
(See what I did there?)

 

[Lion IRC]

You weren't born believing in God,

Yes I was.

Now try telling me I don't have free will.

 

[bilby]

I never started to believe God exists.

Yeah, you did. You may never have been aware of it, but it's unavoidable that you started at some point - you haven't existed forever, so there must have been a point in time when you started to believe.

I never had a choice.

You have a choice right now. Your ongoing decision to choose poorly is entirely your own fault.

 

[bilby]

So why do I think the same things about God as those so-called illiterate Bronze Age goat hearders who lived in Mesopotamia?

You don't.

I wonder why you imagine that you do.

 

[bilby]

You weren't born believing in God,

Yes I was.

Sure you were. Just like you were born an English speaker.

 

[Elixir]

why do I think the same things about God as those so-called illiterate Bronze Age goat hearders who lived in Mesopotamia?

You DON'T.

Yes, I do.

Delusional. No way you know shit about what it was like to be anyone else.

You would have to be a goat herder in Mesopotamia ca 500 CE to have any idea what they thought about God.

You're not me.

You’re not a 5th century goat herder.

And by your own logic, since youre not a Bronze Age goat herder you cant tell me that I dont share with them a common view of God. Monotheistic. Omnipotent. Abrahamic. Past-eternal. Morally superlative. Immanent....

I can tell you whatever I want, just as you can spew that disingenuous bullshit all over

All you know is what a very few people wrote down about words and events, generations after the alleged facts.

You're not me.

That doesn’t give you any special nollidge of anyone else.

You're not in a position to tell me I haven't shared the same experiences of God that they had.

Sure I am. I am a rational being.

You use the term "generations after" but in the Bible you will see generation after generation having the experience you claim isnt possible me because...

Bzzzt. In the Bible I see words, stories, just like every other book. Many of the stories are overtly fictional.

Since when does something being written about in antiquity prevent me from having the same experience?

Have you ever even BEEN to Mesopotamia? Certainly not in the 5tg century. Mesopotamia was different. The earth was different. The human experience was different.
Criminals were hanging on crosses on the outskirts of towns. .. have you experienced that? You might think you know exactly what that sounds, smells and looks like. And that would be DELUSIONAL.
You are not them, and then isn’t now.

 

[bilby]

why do I think the same things about God as those so-called illiterate Bronze Age goat hearders who lived in Mesopotamia?

You DON'T.

Yes, I do.

Delusional. No way you know shit about what it was like to be anyone else.

You would have to be a goat herder in Mesopotamia ca 500 CE to have any idea what they thought about God.

You're not me.

You’re not a 5th century goat herder.

And by your own logic, since youre not a Bronze Age goat herder you cant tell me that I dont share with them a common view of God. Monotheistic. Omnipotent. Abrahamic. Past-eternal. Morally superlative. Immanent....

I can tell you whatever I want, just as you can spew that disingenuous bullshit all over

All you know is what a very few people wrote down about words and events, generations after the alleged facts.

You're not me.

That doesn’t give you any special nollidge of anyone else.

You're not in a position to tell me I haven't shared the same experiences of God that they had.

Sure I am. I am a rational being.

You use the term "generations after" but in the Bible you will see generation after generation having the experience you claim isnt possible me because...

Bzzzt. In the Bible I see words, just like every other book. Stories. Many of them overtly fictional.

Since when does something being written about in antiquity prevent me from having the same experience?

The earth was different then. The human experience was different. Criminals hanging on crosses on the outskirts of towns. .. have you experienced that? You might think you know exactly what that sounds, smells and looks like. And that would be
DELUSIONAL. You are not them, and then isn’t now.

I bet he can't even butcher a goat. I am prepared to bet that he's not a fluent speaker of any Bronze Age Mesopotamian languages, either.

 

[Elixir]

I bet he can't even butcher a goat.

Hey, if he can have the EXACT SAME EXPERIENCE OF GOD, surely he can have the EXACT SAME EXPERIENCE OF BUTCHERING A GOAT!

 

[Lion IRC]

I never started to believe God exists.

Yeah, you did.

No. I didnt.

Just to break the monotony why don't you tell me something about yourself or something that happened to you and I'll tell you youre wrong.