Problems with the Problem of Evil

[bilby]

I never started to believe God exists.

Yeah, you did.

No. I didnt.

Just to break the monotony why don't you tell me something about yourself or something that happened to you and I'll tell you your wrong.

Just to break the monotony, why don't you stop snipping the reasoning, and start thinking it through rationally?

you haven't existed forever, so there must have been a point in time when you started to believe.

 

[Lion IRC]

I bet he can't even butcher a goat.

Hey, if he can have the EXACT SAME EXPERIENCE OF GOD, surely he can have the EXACT SAME EXPERIENCE OF BUTCHERING A GOAT!

The question is...what's stopping me?

 

[Lion IRC]

I never started to believe God exists.

Yeah, you did.

No. I didnt.

Just to break the monotony why don't you tell me something about yourself or something that happened to you and I'll tell you your wrong.

Just to break the monotony, why don't you stop snipping the reasoning, and start thinking it through rationally?

you haven't existed forever, so there must have been a point in time when you started to believe.

This is a huge logic fail.
I wasn't an atheist before I existed then turned into a theist once I started to exist.

There was no non-theist version of me prior to me.

 

[Lion IRC]

why do I think the same things about God as those so-called illiterate Bronze Age goat hearders who lived in Mesopotamia?

You DON'T.

Yes, I do.

Delusional. No way you know shit about what it was like to be anyone else.

I must know something about them otherwise ppl wouldn't frequently accuse me of believing the same things as them.

Are you seriously suggesting that every atheist who ever used the term "illiterate Bronze Age goat herder" knows nothing about... illiterate Bronze Age goat herders?

How would they know about illiterate Mesopotamians if we had no evidence or records?

Which reminds me. It seems a little bit odd to accuse the inventors of cuneiform of being unable to write.

You would have to be a goat herder in Mesopotamia ca 500 CE to have any idea what they thought about God.

You're not me.

You’re not a 5th century goat herder.

You're refuting your own position when you claim nothing can be known about 5th century goat herders by people who aren't 5th century goat herders because you yourself (logically) don't know about 5th century goat herders, and therefore aren't in a position to say. So maybe leave the talking to someone else who maybe does think it's possible to know stuff about 5th century goat herders.

And by your own logic, since youre not a Bronze Age goat herder you cant tell me that I dont share with them a common view of God. Monotheistic. Omnipotent. Abrahamic. Past-eternal. Morally superlative. Immanent....

I can tell you whatever I want, just as you can spew that disingenuous bullshit all over

Do you dispute that Abrahamic Bronze Age views of God included that He is... Monotheistic. Omnipotent. Past-eternal. Morally superlative. Immanent....

Or are you sticking with that whole...nobody knows anything about what illiterate Bronze Age goat herders believed... routine?

All you know is what a very few people wrote down about words and events, generations after the alleged facts.

You're not me.

That doesn’t give you any special nollidge of anyone else.

Who said it was "special"?
I'm saying it's well documented.

You're not in a position to tell me I haven't shared the same experiences of God that they had.

Sure I am. I am a rational being.

Me too.
So at best, youre left with nothing more than a belief about whether I actually hold the beliefs I claim to hold and a belief that my beliefs don't match those of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Judah, (it's a long list)

You use the term "generations after" but in the Bible you will see generation after generation having the experience you claim isnt possible me because...

Bzzzt. In the Bible I see words, stories, just like every other book.

Books contain words. Noted.

Many of the stories are overtly fictional.

No they arent.

Since when does something being written about in antiquity prevent me from having the same experience?

Have you ever even BEEN to Mesopotamia? Certainly not in the 5tg century. Mesopotamia was different. The earth was different. The human experience was different.

Where did you learn this?
Tell me so that I too can make knowledge claims about illiterate Bronze Age goat herders.

Criminals were hanging on crosses on the outskirts of towns. .. have you experienced that?

No. I haven't experienced that.
But I believe you that it happened as you say.
Far be it from me to tell you that you can't possibly know anything about criminals being crucified in Bronze Age Mesopotamia.

You might think you know exactly what that sounds, smells and looks like. And that would be DELUSIONAL.

I dont claim to know what being a criminal feels like.

You are not them,

I dont claim to be them.
So that'll save you wasting any more time arguing that point.

and then isn’t now.

I dont claim that then is now.
Glad we could clear up and wave goodbye to another strawman.

 

[Politesse]

The real Politesse emerges.

You almost never actuary take a position r respond to what is said of Christianity. You sit back and nit pick.

You sound more like a Christian apologist but you never explicitly articulate what you actually think about Christianity. That would open you to questions and critique. Your usual response is a non response.

For example you said humans are by nature good. I asked on what basis do you make that assertion. No response.

You typically make a federal case when I use terms as used collegiality and you cite dictionary definitions.

Christians move the goal post, that in part is what apologetics is all about.

I am not a "Christian apologist", and I have no idea what you're on about vis-a-vis human nature, either. That's not a concept I take a strong opinion on, nor indeed am I prone to one-sidedly accepting or rejecting religions, cultures, or philosophies in their totality. I study religions, find them fascinating. I am not a monk or an internet guru. I am a scientist before anything else, and generally prefer to keep an open mind on matters where I have no knowledge.

I don't know what it is you want from me. You insist that I never answer questions, but then ignore the responses I give you. My position on Christianity is not a secret, you just don't like it. I don't know any more ways to write the word "agnostic" in your general direction than the dozens of ways I have already tried. It is not a complicated word, and it is only as complicated a concept as one is inclined to make it.

"Nit-picking" is a strange way to describe, like, responding to the content of your post. Why do you bring things up if you don't want to talk about them? You wrote a post of a few paragraphs accusing someone of a logical fallacy, I wrote a post questioning whether it applied. That's not nit-picking, it's just how conversations work.

 

[bilby]

There was no non-theist version of me prior to me.

But there was - every newborn is a non-theist.

The evidence for this is simple; Were it not the case, we would expect to see Christianity (or at least, theism) suddenly arising in non-theist cultures. But Jains and Buddhists (for example) don't bear theist (much less Christian) children, not even occasionally.

Only theists have theist children, and they are overwhelmingly likely to be of the exact same sect and religion as their parents and/or teachers - even if they are adopted as infants.

This tells us that religion comes, not from nature, but from nurture.

Infants know nothing, and they learn a lot very fast. Amongst the things they learn are any erroneous beliefs of their parents and teachers - whether those beliefs are that the number 13 or 4 is "unlucky", or that the world was created by a god or gods, or that they will grow hair on the palms of their hands if they don't stop masturbating.

It's not until quite late in life that they become capable of challenging or even questioning these early lessons, and many never manage to do so at all.

 

[DBT]

What brought you to a belief in God, the bible, Christianity? Did you just decide to believe as an act of will? One moment you were not convinced, the next you believed?

I never started to believe God exists.

There was a time as a child when you had never heard of God or religion. You were not born with the knowledge of religion, faith or God. You may mean when you became conscious of your belief.

I never had a choice.

Sure, and what does that say about your claim that free will is issue, that free will allows you to choose either a belief in God or a lack of conviction.

You have falsified the free will defense.

Of course not, conviction is a process brought about by many elements, family, culture, life experiences, needs, wants.

Nope. Not everyone acquires their conviction about God gradually.

It's not like a switch operating in isolation. You need to consider everything that brings the person to that moment of realization that they believe something, the 'aha' moment has antecedents.

Had you been born in Arabia in a Muslim, you would be raised as a Muslim. Maybe travel or wider reading may have changed your thinking, but that is also a process of change, neither free will or a matter of will.

I was born into a hedonistic, scientistic, materialistic, secular, liberal, Western culture.

My religion? The God of Abraham - Bronze age, Mesopotamia...

What went wrong?

It's not just the immediate culture of your family, but exposure to a whole range of beliefs in the wider culture, ideas and beliefs that resonate with your life experiences and your needs and wants.

For that very reason some restrictive religions try to limit exposure to ideas and beliefs that challenge their teachings.

 

[Lion IRC]

What brought you to a belief in God, the bible, Christianity? Did you just decide to believe as an act of will? One moment you were not convinced, the next you believed?

I never started to believe God exists.

There was a time as a child when you had never heard of God or religion.

You can think God exists before someone tells you God exists.

You were not born with the knowledge of religion, faith or God. You may mean when you became conscious of your belief.

That's not really a material distinction.
An awareness void prior to becoming consciously aware that you think X doesn't necessarily qualify as a time when you thought Y. You didnt think X or Y or anything. It's just a time you don't remember.

And why should a period of a time before I existed, or a comatose time when I didn't think anything at all qualify as part of my 'thoughts about God' timeline?

I never had a choice.

Sure, and what does that say about your claim that free will is issue, that free will allows you to choose either a belief in God or a lack of conviction.

You have falsified the free will defense.

If there's a fork in the road and I can go left or right, I can make a free will choice.
If there's no fork in the road, there's no choice to be made. But I still have my free will in both scenarios.

Of course not, conviction is a process brought about by many elements, family, culture, life experiences, needs, wants.

Nope. Not everyone acquires their conviction about God gradually.

It's not like a switch operating in isolation. You need to consider everything that brings the person to that moment of realization that they believe something, the 'aha' moment has antecedents.

I already affirmed that people can gradually increase their knowledge of God - people who already think God is real.

Had you been born in Arabia in a Muslim, you would be raised as a Muslim. Maybe travel or wider reading may have changed your thinking, but that is also a process of change, neither free will or a matter of will.

I was born into a hedonistic, scientistic, materialistic, secular, liberal, Western culture.

My religion? The God of Abraham - Bronze age, Mesopotamia...

What went wrong?

It's not just the immediate culture of your family, but exposure to a whole range of beliefs in the wider culture, ideas and beliefs that resonate with your life experiences and your needs and wants.

Yes. There's a lot more to it than simplistic (genetic fallacy) assertions about where someone grew up.

For that very reason some restrictive religions try to limit exposure to ideas and beliefs that challenge their teachings.

I think a religion will flourish best if it (evangelically) invites and engages with such challenges.

 

[Lion IRC]

There was no non-theist version of me prior to me.

But there was...

No. If I don't exist there is no version of me.

- every newborn is a non-theist.

Even when you change from the non-existent version of me (a time before I existed) to the newborn but still unaware of their own existence version of me, that it doesn't make me a conscious non-theist.

The evidence for this is simple; Were it not the case, we would expect to see Christianity (or at least, theism) suddenly arising in non-theist cultures. But Jains and Buddhists (for example) don't bear theist (much less Christian) children, not even occasionally.

OK
Call me a Jain then.
I can't remember a time when I didn't think of myself as a godlike past-eternal soul. Nobody ever taught me that karma is real. I've always thought that.

"It's a self-evident truth, an axiom which does not need to be proven."

Or you can call me a Buddhist if you like.
My non-self can't remember a time when I didn't have higher knowledge about the perpetual cycle of suffering and impermanence. Even in my past lives I already knew.

OK. Now what?

 

[bilby]

There was no non-theist version of me prior to me.

But there was...

No. If I don't exist there is no version of me.

Again, perhaps read and try to think first, before responding:

- every newborn is a non-theist.

So, you just posted an(other) completely irrelevant response.

Even when you change from the non-existent version of me (a time before I existed) to the newborn but still unaware of their own existence version of me, that it doesn't make me a conscious non-theist.

No. But once you become self aware, you still aren't a Christian until someone tells you to be. Even if you are an instinctive non-specific theist.

The evidence for this is simple; Were it not the case, we would expect to see Christianity (or at least, theism) suddenly arising in non-theist cultures. But Jains and Buddhists (for example) don't bear theist (much less Christian) children, not even occasionally.

OK
Call me a Jain then.

Why? You are NOT a Jain. You are a Christian.

I can't remember a time when I didn't think of myself as a godlike past-eternal soul. Nobody ever taught me that karma is real. I've always thought that.

"It's a self-evident truth, an axiom which does not need to be proven."

Yeah, that doesn't make you a Jain though. You're a pick-and-mix Christian, with a bizarre belief that all other religions are just misunderstandings of your own perfect sect.

Which is not only nonsensical, but derply egotistical, and condemned as a lack of humility by a huge fraction of the religions you are attempting to co-opt.

Or you can call me a Buddhist if you like.

I don't like.

You are clearly NOT a Buddhist.

My non-self can't remember a time when I didn't have higher knowledge about the perpetual cycle of suffering and impermanence. Even in my past lives I already knew.

OK. Now what?

Now you should think more carefully about just how poorly your beliefs fit with observable reality.

But, of course, you won't.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

You weren't born believing in God,

Yes I was.

...you learnt about it through exposure, just like we all learn our native language.

Learning more and more about God over time doesn't diminish the fact that a person might have always thought God is real.

Ironically, if your statement were true that you never started to believe in God, then that same statement can be applied to the universe.

Why is that ironic?

Also, if you were born in the USA, or indeed probably any other nation, then you weren't born into the society you describe.

My (unoriginal, uncontroversial) description of the society and culture I was born into is accurate. I didn't invent the word secular. Or liberal. Or materialistic. To say that Western culture is hedonistic seems to me more like a frank admission than a polemic.

And the frequently used epithet "illiterate Bronze Age goat herders" is pretty much a declaration of how different such a culture is compared to our... wait for it... you know what comes next... our hedonistic, scientistic, materialistic, secular, liberal, Western culture

Anyway, what is more relevant is what your parents believed, and what environment you were exposed to as a child.

Not more relevant. Equally relevant.

It's definitely important what was thought by generations after generations. We can be grateful they wrote stuff down. Right?
(See what I did there?)

It is ironic that your claim to never started to believe in God also applies to the universe, because many Christians claim that God created the universe from nothing, and therefore if God didn't exist that the universe would have to come from nothing, whereas science says that the universe did not come from nothing because it had no beginning.
However, the reason science can say that is because time started as a result of the universe existing, whereas you can't claim that time didn't exist before you were born.

 

[Elixir]

I bet he can't even butcher a goat.

Hey, if he can have the EXACT SAME EXPERIENCE OF GOD, surely he can have the EXACT SAME EXPERIENCE OF BUTCHERING A GOAT!

The question is...what's stopping me?

The FACT that your experiences, like everyone else’s, are totally unique.

I must know something about them

The only thing you “know” about them is that there are words in a book describing them, and attributing translated, edited words (from a language you wouldn’t understand) to their speech.
IOW, NOT MUCH.

 

[Elixir]

why don't you tell me something about yourself or something that happened to you and I'll tell you youre wrong.

How can someone claiming to have experiences IDENTICAL to those of people who have been dead for nearly 2000 years, deny that someone else WHO IS ALIVE NOW AND CURRENTLY COMMUNICATING WITH YOU can have your “identical same experience”?
Hypocrisy, much??

 

[steve_bank]

Is it Calvinists who believe one is born predestined either saved or not saved?

 

[Elixir]

Is it Calvinists who believe one is born predestined either saved or not saved?

God only knows …

 

[southernhybrid]

Is it Calvinists who believe one is born predestined either saved or not saved?

I was going to post about this earlier but reading the thread made me sleepy, so I feel asleep, although that wasn't my choice.

the Bible is a very confusing book, especially if you take it literally, but it's interesting how so many Christians try to make the case for predestination and free will, not being contradictory.

Take a look, if you have the will do so, or perhaps I should say if you can't help yourself.

https://biblereasons.com/predestination-vs-free-will/

Likely, the greatest issue people have with doctrines such as predestination is that they think it necessarily reduces humans to unthinking robots. Or, better, to inanimate pawns on a chessboard, which God moves around as He sees fit. However, this is a conclusion that is philosophically driven, and not one that is derivative from the Scriptures.

The Bible clearly teaches that people have a genuine volition. That is, they make real decisions, and are really responsible for those choices. People either reject the gospel or they believe it, and when they do either they act in accordance with their will – genuinely.
At the same time, the Bible teaches that all who come to Jesus Christ by faith have been chosen, or predestined, by God to come.
So, there can be a tension in our minds as we try to understand these two concepts. Does God choose me, or do I choose God? And the answer, as unsatisfying as it might sound, is “yes”. A person really believes in Christ, and that is an act of his will. He willingly comes to Jesus.
And yes, God predestined all who come to Jesus by faith.

So, if you think you have free will, you're wrong because Bible god decides who will be saved and who will go to hell, even though it also says that you have free will. Sure, that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, Calvinists do believe in predestination, but apparently so do a lot of other conservative Christians. Wrap your head around that one if you can. What kind of an evil god decides who will spend eternity being tortured and who won't? If I were a conservative Christian, I'd never have children because what if one of them was predestined to hell by an angry god? It would be my fault for giving birth to a hell bound sinner.

And, Lion already said he had no choice but to believe in god, which is a way admitting he has no free will. Then he contradicted himself and said he has free will. No offense Lion, but that makes no sense. Neither does it make sense that you knew god when you were born. Yeah, Sure right.

 

[Lion IRC]

I bet he can't even butcher a goat.

Hey, if he can have the EXACT SAME EXPERIENCE OF GOD, surely he can have the EXACT SAME EXPERIENCE OF BUTCHERING A GOAT!

The question is...what's stopping me?

The FACT that your experiences, like everyone else’s, are totally unique.

Who said it had to be "exactly the same" as their individually "unique" experience?

I'm not the same age and body height and marital status. I dont know what EXACT (caps lock exclamation point) time of day they had their experience. They paid 10 shekels for their goat and mine cost 15 shekels....

Oh my God!!! how could I possibly have any idea whatsoever about Bronze Age goat herders.

You're seriously going to quibble about that so as to avoid the main point?

 

[Lion IRC]

And, Lion already said he had no choice but to believe in god, which is a way admitting he has no free will. Then he contradicted himself and said he has free will

No choice in the sense that I never had a choice to make. I never chose or started to believe God exists.

See the example I gave to DBT

There's a fork in the road and I can go left or right, I can make a free will choice.
If there's no fork in the road, there's no choice to be made. I have no choice. But I still have my free will in both scenarios.

Theres no contradiction.

 

[Lion IRC]

It is ironic that your claim to never started to believe in God also applies to the universe, because many Christians claim that God created the universe from nothing...

I still don't see the irony.
How does my claim relate to whether or not the universe has always existed?

If somone says the universe never started to exist that would be akin to me saying God never started to exist.

Maybe you're using the word "ironic" when what you mean is "hypocritical" because you (mistakenly) think there's some sort of special pleading going on here.

But I don't claim that a past-eternal universe (which never started) needs a cause. Nor do I claim its impossible for a thing to be past-eternal.

 

[southernhybrid]

And, Lion already said he had no choice but to believe in god, which is a way admitting he has no free will. Then he contradicted himself and said he has free will

No choice in the sense that I never had a choice to make. I never chose or started to believe God exists.

See the example I gave to DBT

There's a fork in the road and I can go left or right, I can make a free will choice.
If there's no fork in the road, there's no choice to be made. I have no choice. But I still have my free will in both scenarios.

Theres no contradiction.

I think I did read your response, but we obviously see it very differently, and at this point. It makes no sense to claim that you didn't have a choice but to believe in god and then claim that you have free will. If you'd like, you can explain how predestination and free will are the same thing, according to the Bible per the many examples in the link I posted. If god decides who gets into heaven, how does that allow you to have free will? The god that you think is real is a very evil one imo, even though I don't believe he exists. But, I doubt you can help believing, so hopefully, your beliefs have given you some good moral habits, like helping the poor, welcoming the stranger etc. the nicer parts of your Holy Book.