The death of Tyre Nichols

[Toni]

Why do you people hate each other so much?

Racism and class violence.

In the Tyre Nichols case? Five black men beating up another black man? Do all five black police officers hate black people, and that's why they did it? Or is their some "behind the scenes" racisim involving non-blacks to explain the situation? And if so, what is the other race responsible? Chinese? Native American? White? Pacific Islander?

He asked why we all hate each other so much. Those are the usual reasons. Your frothing response is not disproving my assertion.

Sorry about the frothing * wipes up keyboard with towel*. Yeah, I guess you were speaking in generalities about hate, but the OP is about the Tyre Nichols case in particular, which your answer doesn't seem to address. To me, the Tyree case looks to be about some police officers with anger issues, sadistic tendencies and on a power trip. They should never have been cops in the first place.

To me, it seems as though police departments recruit such individuals and train it into them. It's long been typical of police departments to seek out and to receive military type training and military type equipment. It's easy to blame this on the drug war. It's more accurate to blame this on the over-proliferation of weapons. Period.

Police are supposed to exist to serve and protect the population. Not serve as an occupying force.

 

[Toni]

This is twitter, so, yeah but:

 

[Harry Bosch]

Why do you people hate each other so much?

Racism and class violence.

In the Tyre Nichols case? Five black men beating up another black man? Do all five black police officers hate black people, and that's why they did it? Or is their some "behind the scenes" racisim involving non-blacks to explain the situation? And if so, what is the other race responsible? Chinese? Native American? White? Pacific Islander?

He asked why we all hate each other so much. Those are the usual reasons. Your frothing response is not disproving my assertion.

Sorry about the frothing * wipes up keyboard with towel*. Yeah, I guess you were speaking in generalities about hate, but the OP is about the Tyre Nichols case in particular, which your answer doesn't seem to address. To me, the Tyree case looks to be about some police officers with anger issues, sadistic tendencies and on a power trip. They should never have been cops in the first place.

To me, it seems as though police departments recruit such individuals and train it into them. It's long been typical of police departments to seek out and to receive military type training and military type equipment. It's easy to blame this on the drug war. It's more accurate to blame this on the over-proliferation of weapons. Period.

Police are supposed to exist to serve and protect the population. Not serve as an occupying force.

I disagree here a little. First off, police recruits are very much in the same recruiting pool as soldiers: low pay, seniority counts, chain of command, pension, and etc. So of course many ex soldiers go into law enforcement. Secondly, I actually think the opposite of the above, I think that there is a lack of training. Obviously, there are some people who lack the restraint and compassion to be given the trust of being a police officer. If we want better officers, we need to screen them better, increase pay and benefits, train more, and hold them accountable.

 

[Patooka]

I don't remember where you are from but I do know that there are a number of posters here from Australia. The difference seems to be that in the US, the media reports such happenings. Apparently the media is more quiet in Australia and I suspect in other countries:

IIRC, Tigers lives in Victoria somewhere, but in WA, NT and Far North Queensland there are plenty of stories about Police brutality particularly towards indigenous Australians. You're not wrong about the media coverage though. To add a bit of context, the current leader of Australia conservative coalition is a former cop and the majority of Australian media is either openly conservative or conservative leaning. As a result, a lot of law enforcement stories push the "If you're not guilty you have nothing to worry about" trope.

 

[Patooka]

I disagree here a little. First off, police recruits are very much in the same recruiting pool as soldiers: low pay, seniority counts, chain of command, pension, and etc. So of course many ex soldiers go into law enforcement. Secondly, I actually think the opposite of the above, I think that there is a lack of training. Obviously, there are some people who lack the restraint and compassion to be given the trust of being a police officer. If we want better officers, we need to screen them better, increase pay and benefits, train more, and hold them accountable.

You could probably sack half, give the rest a 33% pay rise, pocket the savings and see a significant improvement in law enforcement.

 

[Oleg]

If we want better officers, we need to screen them better, increase pay and benefits, train more, and hold them accountable.

You also need a political establishment that supports the police. Seattle well compensates its police but recruitment and retention is now abysmal.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Why do you people hate each other so much?

Racism and class violence.

In the Tyre Nichols case? Five black men beating up another black man? Do all five black police officers hate black people, and that's why they did it? Or is their some "behind the scenes" racisim involving non-blacks to explain the situation? And if so, what is the other race responsible? Chinese? Native American? White? Pacific Islander?

He asked why we all hate each other so much. Those are the usual reasons. Your frothing response is not disproving my assertion.

Sorry about the frothing * wipes up keyboard with towel*. Yeah, I guess you were speaking in generalities about hate, but the OP is about the Tyre Nichols case in particular, which your answer doesn't seem to address. To me, the Tyree case looks to be about some police officers with anger issues, sadistic tendencies and on a power trip. They should never have been cops in the first place.

To me, it seems as though police departments recruit such individuals and train it into them. It's long been typical of police departments to seek out and to receive military type training and military type equipment. It's easy to blame this on the drug war. It's more accurate to blame this on the over-proliferation of weapons. Period.

Police are supposed to exist to serve and protect the population. Not serve as an occupying force.

I disagree here a little. First off, police recruits are very much in the same recruiting pool as soldiers: low pay, seniority counts, chain of command, pension, and etc. So of course many ex soldiers go into law enforcement. Secondly, I actually think the opposite of the above, I think that there is a lack of training. Obviously, there are some people who lack the restraint and compassion to be given the trust of being a police officer. If we want better officers, we need to screen them better, increase pay and benefits, train more, and hold them accountable.

It's a lack of training and perhaps the wrong training. I looked up a couple examples some time back and found the police department of a coastal California town who were training in aggressive tactics and another medium size town in Georgia who were teaching quite the opposite, to protect and to serve. Training is local. But, no one is trained to have such a disregard for life as to beat, suffocate, or by whatever means to wantonly kill a suspect. This the person brings with them when they apply for the job. These are the people who should be weeded out during the application process. These are the aggressive personality types that seek a weapon and the uniform that gives them permission to kill.

"you people".
Fuck me.

 

[Toni]

Why do you people hate each other so much?

Racism and class violence.

In the Tyre Nichols case? Five black men beating up another black man? Do all five black police officers hate black people, and that's why they did it? Or is their some "behind the scenes" racisim involving non-blacks to explain the situation? And if so, what is the other race responsible? Chinese? Native American? White? Pacific Islander?

He asked why we all hate each other so much. Those are the usual reasons. Your frothing response is not disproving my assertion.

Sorry about the frothing * wipes up keyboard with towel*. Yeah, I guess you were speaking in generalities about hate, but the OP is about the Tyre Nichols case in particular, which your answer doesn't seem to address. To me, the Tyree case looks to be about some police officers with anger issues, sadistic tendencies and on a power trip. They should never have been cops in the first place.

To me, it seems as though police departments recruit such individuals and train it into them. It's long been typical of police departments to seek out and to receive military type training and military type equipment. It's easy to blame this on the drug war. It's more accurate to blame this on the over-proliferation of weapons. Period.

Police are supposed to exist to serve and protect the population. Not serve as an occupying force.

I disagree here a little. First off, police recruits are very much in the same recruiting pool as soldiers: low pay, seniority counts, chain of command, pension, and etc. So of course many ex soldiers go into law enforcement. Secondly, I actually think the opposite of the above, I think that there is a lack of training. Obviously, there are some people who lack the restraint and compassion to be given the trust of being a police officer. If we want better officers, we need to screen them better, increase pay and benefits, train more, and hold them accountable.

Exactly: They recruit from the same pool as military and a lot of firmer military go into policing. I understand why abd I think it’s a problem.

I agree that there needs to be more and better training, better pay, better recruiting. It’s way too heavy on the paramilitary training—and that seems to be relatively recent and coincidental to the growth in illegal drug trade.

 

[Tigers!]

I don't remember where you are from but I do know that there are a number of posters here from Australia. The difference seems to be that in the US, the media reports such happenings. Apparently the media is more quiet in Australia and I suspect in other countries:

IIRC, Tigers lives in Victoria somewhere, but in WA, NT and Far North Queensland there are plenty of stories about Police brutality particularly towards indigenous Australians. You're not wrong about the media coverage though. To add a bit of context, the current leader of Australia conservative coalition is a former cop and the majority of Australian media is either openly conservative or conservative leaning. As a result, a lot of law enforcement stories push the "If you're not guilty you have nothing to worry about" trope.

Yes I live in Victoria, Australia.
I am not blind to our problems but in Australia 99.9999....% of motorists pulled over by police do not have to wonder if they will survive.
In some parts of the US that figure seems to plummet greatly. And yes of course the media in Aust. tend to show, promote certain behaviours that can give a distorted view.
But you yanks have a problem. Too many motorists are being killed for no apparent reason apart from wrong location, wrong time.
The first response of far too many of your police is the gun or the baton.

I think of part of it is due to the fact that you have so many police forces with widely varying training, recruitment, pay etc. That will not help things. Your vetting processes are not weeding out the unstable or violent very well. I suspect that stress of the role in not helping.
With the public image of police failing it becomes a downward spiral of stress, anger, fear etc.

Why is the fact that the curent Australian opposition leader a former cop important? Unless of course you are implying that being a former cop somehow makes one suspect in some way.

I have shown this clip before as an example of the way policing is done differently at time sin Australia. Granted it was 7 years ago and a women involved. But I wonder what would have happened to her if she did this in the US

 

[Toni]

I don't remember where you are from but I do know that there are a number of posters here from Australia. The difference seems to be that in the US, the media reports such happenings. Apparently the media is more quiet in Australia and I suspect in other countries:

IIRC, Tigers lives in Victoria somewhere, but in WA, NT and Far North Queensland there are plenty of stories about Police brutality particularly towards indigenous Australians. You're not wrong about the media coverage though. To add a bit of context, the current leader of Australia conservative coalition is a former cop and the majority of Australian media is either openly conservative or conservative leaning. As a result, a lot of law enforcement stories push the "If you're not guilty you have nothing to worry about" trope.

Yes I live in Victoria, Australia.
I am not blind to our problems but in Australia 99.9999....% of motorists pulled over by police do not have to wonder if they will survive.
In some parts of the US that figure seems to plummet greatly. And yes of course the media in Aust. tend to show, promote certain behaviours that can give a distorted view.
But you yanks have a problem. Too many motorists are being killed for no apparent reason apart from wrong location, wrong time.
The first response of far too many of your police is the gun or the baton.

I think of part of it is due to the fact that you have so many police forces with widely varying training, recruitment, pay etc. That will not help things. Your vetting processes are not weeding out the unstable or violent very well. I suspect that stress of the role in not helping.
With the public image of police failing it becomes a downward spiral of stress, anger, fear etc.

Why is the fact that the curent Australian opposition leader a former cop important? Unless of course you are implying that being a former cop somehow makes one suspect in some way.

I have shown this clip before as an example of the way policing is done differently at time sin Australia. Granted it was 7 years ago and a women involved. But I wonder what would have happened to her if she did this in the US

I didn't mean to pick on Australia--I just googled the issue because there are a number of Australians posting on this board.

Australia is different than the US in that a greater portion of the Australian population is white and largely from the British isles. Your population is less than 10% of the US population. This has implications for this particular discussion.

I was able to find this:

Black Lives Matter – Australia’s statistics

As Australians rally across the country to protest against mistreatment and deaths of Indigenous people, inspired by the week of protests following the death of George Floyd in the US, I’m co…

actuarialeye.com

Adult Indigenous Australians are 11 times more likely to be in prison than a random Australian, whereas Black Americans are “only” three times as likely to be in prison as the average American. And while the death rates in prison for Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians are roughly comparable, the death rates in “police custody” (before getting to prison) are seven times higher for Indigenous Australians than all Australians. In the US, Black Americans are nearly twice as likely to be killed at the hands of police than the average American.

In general, there is a much, much smaller chance of dying while in custody in Australia compared with the US, which seems easily explainable by the differences in the practice of arming (or not arming) police officers.

It seems obvious to me that we should not be arming police officers here in the US. We have a serious problem with guns in the US. Arming police does not seem to be reducing that problem.

 

[bilby]

In general, there is a much, much smaller chance of dying while in custody in Australia compared with the US, which seems easily explainable by the differences in the practice of arming (or not arming) police officers.

Not really. All Australian police officers are routinely armed. The standard Queensland police sidearm is a 9mm Glock.

Australia was founded as a British penal colony (as were many US states), and the law enforcement paradigm and legal framework are, as a consequence, very different from that of the mother country.

Australia has a law for almost everything. If something isn't prohibited, it's probably mandatory. The police, and the public, generally resolve the resulting de jure lack of personal freedom by just ignoring the laws when they don't seem reasonable.

On paper, it really shouldn't work; Australia should be the antithesis of a free country. But oddly, it's not. Except for a small minority of (mostly indigenous) people. We need to work harder on that.

By contrast, on paper the USA really should work; It should be the exemplar of personal freedom. But oddly, it's not.

 

[Tigers!]

I didn't mean to pick on Australia--I just googled the issue because there are a number of Australians posting on this board.

Australia is different than the US in that a greater portion of the Australian population is white and largely from the British isles. Your population is less than 10% of the US population. This has implications for this particular discussion.

I was able to find this:

Black Lives Matter – Australia’s statistics

As Australians rally across the country to protest against mistreatment and deaths of Indigenous people, inspired by the week of protests following the death of George Floyd in the US, I’m co…

actuarialeye.com

Adult Indigenous Australians are 11 times more likely to be in prison than a random Australian, whereas Black Americans are “only” three times as likely to be in prison as the average American. And while the death rates in prison for Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians are roughly comparable, the death rates in “police custody” (before getting to prison) are seven times higher for Indigenous Australians than all Australians. In the US, Black Americans are nearly twice as likely to be killed at the hands of police than the average American.

In general, there is a much, much smaller chance of dying while in custody in Australia compared with the US, which seems easily explainable by the differences in the practice of arming (or not arming) police officers.

It seems obvious to me that we should not be arming police officers here in the US. We have a serious problem with guns in the US. Arming police does not seem to be reducing that problem.

Not concerned about Australia being mentioned. I am not that precious that I cannot see that we too have problems.
Regarding arming of police - whilst not giving police guns would certainly reduce the possibility of civvies being shot it would not have saved Tyre Nichols.
Yes the demographics have an impact but that is too often used as an excuse for inaction or a rationalisation for past actions. We all bleed the same colour and our organs are in the same locations regardless of our skin colour or ancestry.
The major problem is not the tools but the attitudes. Again remembering that the media is Australia do not show everything but rather what will garner viewers, it appears to me that too many police in the US (in fact the US populace as a whole) have the approach of shoot/bash first and ask questions later, if at all.
Guns/batons are the symptom of the problem not the cause (without desiring to give any succour to those who wish to have a no rules approach to gun ownership).
You risk getting caught of a vicious circle where it will only get worse.
(One of the reasons I stay on these fora, apart from the wonderful inhabitants, is that it gives me opportunity to learn that I would not get if I just watched the news in Australia)

 

[Toni]

I didn't mean to pick on Australia--I just googled the issue because there are a number of Australians posting on this board.

Australia is different than the US in that a greater portion of the Australian population is white and largely from the British isles. Your population is less than 10% of the US population. This has implications for this particular discussion.

I was able to find this:

Black Lives Matter – Australia’s statistics

As Australians rally across the country to protest against mistreatment and deaths of Indigenous people, inspired by the week of protests following the death of George Floyd in the US, I’m co…

actuarialeye.com

Adult Indigenous Australians are 11 times more likely to be in prison than a random Australian, whereas Black Americans are “only” three times as likely to be in prison as the average American. And while the death rates in prison for Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians are roughly comparable, the death rates in “police custody” (before getting to prison) are seven times higher for Indigenous Australians than all Australians. In the US, Black Americans are nearly twice as likely to be killed at the hands of police than the average American.

In general, there is a much, much smaller chance of dying while in custody in Australia compared with the US, which seems easily explainable by the differences in the practice of arming (or not arming) police officers.

It seems obvious to me that we should not be arming police officers here in the US. We have a serious problem with guns in the US. Arming police does not seem to be reducing that problem.

Not concerned about Australia being mentioned. I am not that precious that I cannot see that we too have problems.
Regarding arming of police - whilst not giving police guns would certainly reduce the possibility of civvies being shot it would not have saved Tyre Nichols.
Yes the demographics have an impact but that is too often used as an excuse for inaction or a rationalisation for past actions. We all bleed the same colour and our organs are in the same locations regardless of our skin colour or ancestry.
The major problem is not the tools but the attitudes. Again remembering that the media is Australia do not show everything but rather what will garner viewers, it appears to me that too many police in the US (in fact the US populace as a whole) have the approach of shoot/bash first and ask questions later, if at all.
Guns/batons are the symptom of the problem not the cause (without desiring to give any succour to those who wish to have a no rules approach to gun ownership).
You risk getting caught of a vicious circle where it will only get worse.
(One of the reasons I stay on these fora, apart from the wonderful inhabitants, is that it gives me opportunity to learn that I would not get if I just watched the news in Australia)

I think that guns do affect the willingness of police to use deadly force. It puts deadly force on the table of tactics to use. I get that it’s a dangerous job and police officers risk their lives.

I think it is a viscous cycle of escalating violence.

 

[Juvenal]

So yet another death from a police beating in the USA.
Why do you people hate each other so much?

The one doesn't follow from the other.

Our police have been militarized. Not every cop, but all of the prestigious specialty teams. No surprise they act like occupiers.

 

[Elixir]

I think it is a viscous cycle of escalating violence.

A sticky matter indeed.

 

[Toni]

I think it is a viscous cycle of escalating violence.

A sticky matter indeed.

Stupid spell check changed it after I changed it to the correct spelling.

 

[Politesse]

I'd say just racism and violence.

Oh? In all of these notorious cases of extreme violence, theft, and murder by police officers, what is the one thing that all of their victims have in common? Some of their victims are black, some white, some Asian. Some are male, others female, many trans. Some are neurotypical, some neurodivergent.

But they're all poor as hell.

Only some people in this country have the protection of the law and the service of the police. You don't always know who they are, but you know who they aren't.

 

[Toni]

I'd say just racism and violence.

Oh? In all of these notorious cases of extreme violence, theft, and murder by police officers, what is the one thing that all of their victims have in common? Some of their victims are black, some white, some Asian. Some are male, others female, many trans. Some are neurotypical, some neurodivergent.

But they're all poor as hell.

Only some people in this country have the protection of the law and the service of the police. You don't always know who they are, but you know who they aren't.

Racism, however, does manage to transcend economic class. I have not been able to find data about deaths of wealthier black persons at the hands of police but I did find this article:

For affluent blacks, wealth doesn't stop racial profiling

High-earning professional black men say they too face challenges when dealing with police -- though sometimes the slights are less violent and more subtle.

money.cnn.com

 

[Tigers!]

I'd say just racism and violence.

Oh? In all of these notorious cases of extreme violence, theft, and murder by police officers, what is the one thing that all of their victims have in common? Some of their victims are black, some white, some Asian. Some are male, others female, many trans. Some are neurotypical, some neurodivergent.

But they're all poor as hell.

Only some people in this country have the protection of the law and the service of the police. You don't always know who they are, but you know who they aren't.

Racism, however, does manage to transcend economic class. I have not been able to find data about deaths of wealthier black persons at the hands of police but I did find this article:

For affluent blacks, wealth doesn't stop racial profiling

High-earning professional black men say they too face challenges when dealing with police -- though sometimes the slights are less violent and more subtle.

money.cnn.com

It is truly sad state of affairs when skin colour is the determining factor in a meeting of police and civvies.

 

[Derec]

Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms

So now we are using Discworld novels to justify people running from police?