The death of Tyre Nichols

[marc]

Makes sense. If a server is rude, insulting, gets your order wrong, purposely spills your food on you, and mocks you for it, in no way is it a good idea to complain! Don’t inform management about it!! Just let it happen, and the fact that you have to eat there every week, and you see it happening to you and other people, you still shouldn’t complain! That way you can be sure they (probably) haven’t messed with your food.

 

[Elixir]

Makes sense. If a server is rude, insulting, gets your order wrong, purposely spills your food on you, and mocks you for it, in no way is it a good idea to complain! Don’t inform management about it!! Just let it happen, and the fact that you have to eat there every week, and you see it happening to you and other people, you still shouldn’t complain! That way you can be sure they (probably) haven’t messed with your food.

Best idea is to tell them that the guy at the table over there was complaining about them. That way they have someone else's food to mess with.

 

[Rhea]

Makes sense. If a server is rude, insulting, gets your order wrong, purposely spills your food on you, and mocks you for it, in no way is it a good idea to complain! Don’t inform management about it!! Just let it happen, and the fact that you have to eat there every week, and you see it happening to you and other people, you still shouldn’t complain! That way you can be sure they (probably) haven’t messed with your food.

Best idea is to tell them that the guy at the table over there BLM was complaining about them. That way they have someone else's food life to mess with.

Aaaah. I was wondering what the allegory was suggesting. I was not able to parse it.


Tom - I can see why you would not want to address the fact that you were blaming BLM for the problem, even when you were shown that the story had nothing whatsoever to do with BLM. I can imagine a lot of people would think retreat!! when they realize that they’ve been falsely accusing a minority group of causing a problem that results in the minority group being killed. It’s probably an icky feeling. So saying, “well what about what YOU do wrong, huh?” Probably seems like a good way to extract oneself from that feeling.


But the record remains: you were blaming BLM for black people getting killed. And it turns out that was a lie some people are trying to promulgate, and they tricked you into adding your voice and passing on their lie.

I, personally, think it’s really really important for good people to know when they’ve done something at odds with their character. Most people want to fix that. Whether you care that you were falsely blaming BLM for something they had nothing to do with in the context of Black people dying unjustly at the hands of police, is your decision.

But lots of people read these threads, so, for them, I encourage discussion of how that happens that BLM and Black people are falsely blamed for their own unjust deaths.

I think it is worth discussing.

 

[Rhea]

I'm not going to yell at the management that they need better help, unless I don't intend to come back.
Tom

Now that I (think I) understand the allegory, I will say that not everyone lives in a world where they can walk away from Police brutality or decide to not report it because that’s less dangerous.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I just read a very long disturbing article about the Memphis police department, which I'm gifting for anyone who would like to read the entire thing. It should be available for at least 2 weeks.

It's what I've been saying all along. The problem isn't the shootings, the problem is the street justice. That article describes the sort of thing I'm talking about.

 

[laughing dog]

I am interpreting your allegory correctly in that you are basically afraid of what the police will do if they do not get enough unconditional support?

Nope.
Not even close.

But I don't expect to get any closer.
Tom

Not a helpful response if you want people to correctly understand your posts. If my interpretation is incorrect, what did you mean?

 

[Elixir]

Will you never tire of pretending that the cops are the root of all evils?
Tom

It’s not “the cops”, it’s “cops”. And it’s not all evils, just many of the worst of them. And not the root either, just a branch in the tree of ingrained social injustices.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But the record remains: you were blaming BLM for black people getting killed. And it turns out that was a lie some people are trying to promulgate, and they tricked you into adding your voice and passing on their lie.

And where was it proven a lie?

Where has this been rebutted: https://www.vox.com/22360290/black-lives-matter-protest-crime-ferguson-effects-murder

 

[Oleg]

But the record remains: you were blaming BLM for black people getting killed. And it turns out that was a lie some people are trying to promulgate, and they tricked you into adding your voice and passing on their lie.

And where was it proven a lie?

Where has this been rebutted: https://www.vox.com/22360290/black-lives-matter-protest-crime-ferguson-effects-murder

I'd like to solicit an alternative explanation as to why the black homicide rate exploded after Floyd's death. That police pulled back and criminals did their thing is pretty solid.

 

[bilby]

I just read a very long disturbing article about the Memphis police department, which I'm gifting for anyone who would like to read the entire thing. It should be available for at least 2 weeks.

It's what I've been saying all along. The problem isn't the shootings, the problem is the street justice. That article describes the sort of thing I'm talking about.

The real problem is the massive proliferation of police departments in the US.

Large police departments, like large factories, are far better than their smaller rivals. They are better placed for all kinds of training and equipment procurement, they provide the community with a consistent and homogeneous relationship, and they have the budget to do things like forensics and archiving properly. They have fewer problems due to egoistic turf wars and jurisdictional arguments, and they can coordinate internally to ensure that criminals cannot escape by crossing local jurisdictional boundaries.

The USA should have (at most) maybe sixty or seventy police departments. One per state, plus a federal department (eg the FBI), and perhaps a dozen or so specialist federal units for particular areas that require a different kind of policing - defence police, railway police, close protection squads, etc., or that need specialist resources such as top level forensic support.

Instead there are over 40,000 (not a typo) police departments in the USA, many of which have only one or two officers in total - a recipe for corruption and lack of oversight.

Modern policing isn't something that can be effectively done as a mom and pop operation.

You don't have forty thousand air traffic control authorities, or forty thousand FIRs. It would be insane and totally impractical.

But you have over forty thousand police departments. What the actual and everlasting fuck are you trying to achieve???

 

[Patooka]

But you have over forty thousand police departments. What the actual and everlasting fuck are you trying to achieve???

Something something states rights big government is bad.
Which ironically makes law enforcement in the states even more top heavy in admin and bureaucracy.

 

[Oleg]

But you have over forty thousand police departments. What the actual and everlasting fuck are you trying to achieve???

You don't understand federalism.

 

[Patooka]

But you have over forty thousand police departments. What the actual and everlasting fuck are you trying to achieve???

You don't understand federalism.

Sure he does. Federalism is what people say when they want to cover up local corruption. Usually with jingoistic bullshit like, "those suits in Washington don't get how things work around here". I've seen Justified. I know what arguments are used to preserve/protect corrupt cops.

 

[southernhybrid]

I really don't understand all the criticisms of the BLM movement. Sure, there were times when the marches got out of control, as often happens with protests, but in my small city the police actually marched with and supported the citizens who participated in the local BLM protests and their was no violence at all. Perhaps if more police departments had been supportive of the BLM movement, there would have been less violence. If one looks at the facts, the vast majority of BLM marches were peaceful. Some people just don't want to admit that.

I know as one who marched in protests against the Viet Nam War, that most protests were peaceful, but there will always be a few exceptions. The protests I marched in were accompanied by soldiers who had just returned from Viet Nam, as they also hated that war and wanted to make it known. Protests work better when a community is able to get support from a wide variety of groups.

 

[Marvin Edwards]

If this has been going on for years - it’s institutional.

It can also be described as a "subculture", in the same fashion that gangs have their own subculture.

 

[TomC]

Tom - I can see why you would not want to address the fact that you were blaming BLM for the problem, even when you were shown that the story had nothing whatsoever to do with BLM.

I'm not sure what problem you think I'm blaming BLM for, exactly? Nichols death? I'm not, at least not directly.

From what I can see, so far, it looks like a bunch of first degree murder charges are in order. If BLM was involved in anyway, it would be in Memphis dropping their standards for cops. But I don't know if that's true or not. Maybe Memphis has a problem with finding and keeping competent professionals across the board, from teachers to medical technicians to restaurant managers. I dunno. I haven't even been to Memphis in decades.
But it is possible that marchers in the streets chanting "Kill the cops" had some impact on the situation.
Tom

 

[Toni]

But it is possible that marchers in the streets chanting "Kill the cops" had some impact on the situation.
Tom

How so?

 

[TomC]

I really don't understand all the criticisms of the BLM movement.

I'm not sure which criticisms you're referring to.

My most fundamental criticism is simple and evidence based. I'm certain that the message and methods of BLM will result in more violent deaths across the board, but especially amongst YBM.

It's not difficult to understand.
Suppose for every 5 unwarranted deaths caused by police there are 500 unwarranted deaths caused by civilians. The tactics of BLM(and similar) reduce the death toll by cops 40%, because the cops pull back. The pull back results in a 5% increase in the death toll caused by civilians. Net result is save 2 lives at the cost of 25.

The problem I'm talking about is this. By far, the biggest threat to YBM is not the cops, it's other YBM. And the cops are the biggest barrier to the threat against YBM.
Tom

 

[TomC]

But it is possible that marchers in the streets chanting "Kill the cops" had some impact on the situation.
Tom

How so?

Seriously?
You don't see how marchers chanting "death to cops" might make an impact on the PD's ability to attract and retain better quality staff?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

But it is possible that marchers in the streets chanting "Kill the cops" had some impact on the situation.
Tom

How so?

Seriously?
You don't see how marchers chanting "death to cops" might make an impact on the PD's ability to attract and retain better quality staff?
Tom

I see it. Do you see how the seemingly endless examples of police indifference to police brutality might make an impact on PD’s ability to attract and retrain better quality staff?