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There isn't really a 'freewill problem'.

I don't see how four definitions of the word helps

To me they demostrate that mind includes much more than conscious activity and doesn't require that it be a factor at all. Therefore allowing us to question whether other species are consciously aware while still allowing that they have minds.
 
I don't see how four definitions of the word helps

To me they demostrate that mind includes much more than conscious activity and doesn't require that it be a factor at all. Therefore allowing us to question whether other species are consciously aware while still allowing that they have minds.

depends on which definition you use i guess
 
I don't see how four definitions of the word helps

To me they demostrate that mind includes much more than conscious activity and doesn't require that it be a factor at all. Therefore allowing us to question whether other species are consciously aware while still allowing that they have minds.

depends on which definition you use i guess

No matter which definition of mind you use, brain still isn't a sufficient condition for it. Necessary, yes, but not sufficient.
 
Are you really saying that brain is both necessary and sufficient for the existence of mind? Would you then argue that an ant, because it possesses a brain, also possesses something that we would recognize as a mind? Are you saying that a brain without electrical impulses still possesses a mind? A person in a catatonic state still possesses a brain, yet by no reasonable argument would we say they were in possession of a mind.

A mind cannot exist without a brain. But a brain by itself is not sufficient to ensure the presence of a mind.

I know I'm probably alone in this opinion but my definition of mind is simply everything that a brain does. Any functional brain, even that of an ant. Conscious awareness is a separate issue and I see no reason to think a mind needs to be conscious. Although conscious awareness might be something that is only distinguishable by degree. Conscious awareness seems to be one part of the mind's processes.

Mind acording to Dictionary.com:
  1. (in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.: the processes of the human mind.
  2. Psychology. the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities.
  3. intellect or understanding, as distinguished from the faculties of feeling and willing; intelligence.

So does a freshly dead corpse have a mind? It surely has a brain. And that brain is doing something (if nothing else, it is decomposing).
 
I know I'm probably alone in this opinion but my definition of mind is simply everything that a brain does. Any functional brain, even that of an ant. Conscious awareness is a separate issue and I see no reason to think a mind needs to be conscious. Although conscious awareness might be something that is only distinguishable by degree. Conscious awareness seems to be one part of the mind's processes.

So does a freshly dead corpse have a mind? It surely has a brain. And that brain is doing something (if nothing else, it is decomposing).

Treedbear was only talking about a "functional brain". And if the brain is already decomposing, then it's no longer a functional brain.

Still, why not. Clearly, being alive, if I'm really that, I wouldn't know, but I would still expect that a freshly dead corpse might well still have a mind, although I suspect death would have to be very fresh for that to happen.
EB
 
I know I'm probably alone in this opinion but my definition of mind is simply everything that a brain does. Any functional brain, even that of an ant. Conscious awareness is a separate issue and I see no reason to think a mind needs to be conscious. Although conscious awareness might be something that is only distinguishable by degree. Conscious awareness seems to be one part of the mind's processes.

So does a freshly dead corpse have a mind? It surely has a brain. And that brain is doing something (if nothing else, it is decomposing).

Treedbear was only talking about a "functional brain". And if the brain is already decomposing, then it's no longer a functional brain.

Still, why not. Clearly, being alive, if I'm really that, I wouldn't know, but I would still expect that a freshly dead corpse might well still have a mind, although I suspect death would have to be very fresh for that to happen.
EB

Well I guess it depends what is meant by 'functional' in this context. If it merely means 'has a mind', then the argument is circular.
 
Treedbear was only talking about a "functional brain". And if the brain is already decomposing, then it's no longer a functional brain.

Still, why not. Clearly, being alive, if I'm really that, I wouldn't know, but I would still expect that a freshly dead corpse might well still have a mind, although I suspect death would have to be very fresh for that to happen.
EB

Well I guess it depends what is meant by 'functional' in this context. If it merely means 'has a mind', then the argument is circular.

I'm not particular where the line gets drawn, but if a brain is sufficiently altered it becomes non-functional as a brain. The same goes for any organ. Just as altering a boat or a chair to the point that it no longer serves the purpose. The brain's purpose is to organize the body's other functions to adapt to its environment.
 
Okay - statistically speaking, if there is only one possible outcome (as there is by definition in the deterministic framework proposed) then the probability of that specific outcome is 100%. That necessarily implies that the probability of all other outcomes is 0% - which literally means that they are all impossible.

Meaning is derived from what has come before. I can look at statistics or historical patterns of cause and effect and assign a probability to the effect my actions might have, and on that basis decide whether to act. Rarely will that approach 100%. But whatever I decide to do will have some consequence. That is the basic premise of determinism. Are you saying that if I take some preventative action to influence future bahavior it will have no effect? Or are you saying there is nothing meaningful about doing so? You seem to want to redefine probability as an abstract concept. But then it becomes meaningless and useless.
...

What it seems you are doing is the fallacy of suppressed correlative:
The fallacy of suppressed correlative is a type of argument that tries to redefine a correlative (one of two mutually exclusive options) so that one alternative encompasses the other, i.e. making one alternative impossible.

You are redefining possibility and probability as statements of fact about a future event, and then inferring that this is how determinists view past events as having 100% probability, when the applicable word would be certainty. They actually mean different things. When you do that probability loses it's meaning. And it's not because statistical analysis would be inaccurate or inapplicable if determinism is true. You are simply misinterpreting the meaning of the words.
 
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No, it most certainly does NOT imply that mind is independent from the brain. Do you seriously not understand what the term "necessary" means in that sentence?

Ahem, it's the ''but not sufficient condition'' that I am referring to and questioning.

A fresh corpse has a brain. If that were sufficient, it would have a mind too - But I don't know of anyone who would agree that it does.

Apparently some folks do. I could name at least one on this forum, apparently claiming that smart autonomous consciousness/mind operates or drives a dumb brain....perhaps a dead brain can no longer be driven. Sort of like a car when its battery is flat.....
 
Really? There are many examples of brain without mind but not a single example of mind without the presence and electrochemical activity of a brain.

If you have an example of mind without brain, please share.

I'd like you to take a moment and re-read my post, please.

''Brain is a necessary but not sufficient condition for the existence of a mind.'' - implies mind that is independent from brain.

No.

It means that the mind is dependent of the brain but that it is also dependent on something else. A mind requires a brain but it also requires something else.

So, I don't know which of your logic or your English is wrong but one of them is.

And then maybe both. Neither English nor logic seems necessary to write the kind of stuff you post.
EB


Hey Noddy, the comment I responded to is open to more interpretation than your arrogant mind may like to believe. Nor is not up to you to explain someone else's post. I'm sure the poster is capable of that.
 
Sorry to be brutal but that's not my problem.

Didn't say it was.
I put a fair amount of thought into my posts and you're just wasting my time when you fail to address the points I raise. (I'd far prefer you took your time rather than always trying produce the snappy comeback)

I don't see that you put much thought into your posts. You simply make assertions, ignore requests for arguments and explanations, ask where I get my definitions from, first common usage, when I give quotes and references, you dismiss these. Then when provided with relevant but uncommon definitions, moan about 'arcane' definitions, protesting irrelevance.

You simply dismiss everything without argument or relevant explanation.

A poll taken in 2009 showed that nearly 60% of professional philosophers accept compatibilism. Compatibilism is discussed extensively in the philosophical literature and Google returns literally hundreds of thousand results when compatibilism is searched. And yet you continue to ignore it.

Ad Populum? Really? You can't be serious. Ignore what, exactly?

Why not give an actual argument for why you believe compatibalism is valid?

Please stop making assertions. Provide explanations and arguments with evidence to back them.

Explain precisely how free will or freedom is compatible with determinism. Provide definitions, terms and references.
 
A poll taken in 2009 showed that nearly 60% of professional philosophers accept compatibilism. Compatibilism is discussed extensively in the philosophical literature and Google returns literally hundreds of thousand results when compatibilism is searched. And yet you continue to ignore it.

Ad Populum? Really? You can't be serious. Ignore what, exactly?
You'd be correct if I were making an argument for the validity of compatibilism. I'm clearly not. I'm simply pointing out the existence of a version of free will that you persistently ignore.
Why not give an actual argument for why you believe compatibalism is valid?
Because I'm not arguing that compatibilism is valid. I'm saying your arguments don't defeat compatibilism (it's immune to the couldn't have done otherwise objection).

What would be more to the point would be for you to explain why you think compatibilism fails. it might at least show whether or not you understood the concept you so fervently criticise.
Explain precisely how free will or freedom is compatible with determinism.
That's easy.

1. Our universe is adequately deterministic.

2. Freedoms exist in our universe (no sane person would deny this).

Conclusion: Freedom is compatible with determinism.
 
Treedbear was only talking about a "functional brain". And if the brain is already decomposing, then it's no longer a functional brain.

Still, why not. Clearly, being alive, if I'm really that, I wouldn't know, but I would still expect that a freshly dead corpse might well still have a mind, although I suspect death would have to be very fresh for that to happen.
EB

Well I guess it depends what is meant by 'functional' in this context. If it merely means 'has a mind', then the argument is circular.

I can see you must be in a bad mood today. It happens to me, too.
EB
 
Can we back up the assertion that everything the brain does is functional, or, if parts of the brain aren't functional that the brain is decaying? I'm with bilby here on a circle being formed to fight mythical indians.

Sorry I should give you me a French any obnoxious lecture on your own native language but boy looka here, it says "linear", not "circular".

functional
adj.
1.
a. Of or relating to a function.
b. Of, relating to, or indicating a mathematical function or functions.
2. Designed for or adapted to a particular function or use: functional architecture.
3.
a. Capable of performing a function; operative: a functional set of brakes.
b. Able to function personally or socially despite limitations or impairment: a functional alcoholic.
4. Medicine Involving physiological function rather than anatomical structure.
n.
A linear function on vectors whose values are scalars.


And, incidentally, we all learn suddenly what the fuck rational people mean by functional.
EB
 
I'd like you to take a moment and re-read my post, please.

''Brain is a necessary but not sufficient condition for the existence of a mind.'' - implies mind that is independent from brain.

No.

It means that the mind is dependent of the brain but that it is also dependent on something else. A mind requires a brain but it also requires something else.

So, I don't know which of your logic or your English is wrong but one of them is.

And then maybe both. Neither English nor logic seems necessary to write the kind of stuff you post.
EB


Hey Noddy,

I also love you, buddy! :sadyes:


the comment I responded to is open to more interpretation than your arrogant mind may like to believe.

No, it is not.

You could also look at the original post, which just confirms there's just one interpretation possible:
There are no examples of mind without the existence and activity of a brain. If you can explain mind without brain agency, go ahead, do your best.
Sure, but there are PLENTY of examples of a brain without a mind.

Brain is a necessary but not sufficient condition for the existence of a mind.

Think about an analogy: There is no person without a body. Yup, that's true. But that doesn't make a body alone into a person. A body is a physical construct. A person is a set of experiences, patterns, and processes that act upon a body.

Everything in there confirms the only one interpretation that's possible.

Except for you, obviously.

Nor is not up to you to explain someone else's post. I'm sure the poster is capable of that.

???

You know it's a forum up here? We can all explain pretty much anything we just feel like explaining.
EB
 
Nor is not up to you to explain someone else's post. I'm sure the poster is capable of that.

What DBT means is that you don't need to explain another poster's post, because they are capable of explaining their own post.
 
You'd be correct if I were making an argument for the validity of compatibilism. I'm clearly not. I'm simply pointing out the existence of a version of free will that you persistently ignore.


Compatibalism comes up from time to time, I have never ignored it. Arguments on the subject of free will have been rumming for a long time, beginning, for me, on IIDB.

I have pointed out the incompatibility of freedom in relation to determinism many times, determinism being a condition that allows no chosen deviations from a determined course of events, which in turn negates freedom.

Basically:
''As demonstrated in earlier paragraphs there is no rational explanation for mental causation, so assuming that the “I” in question refers to a conscious agent, this statement is patently false. In other words the speaker in question here is incorrect in asserting that he, as a mental agent, did anything; a more accurate statement could read something along the lines of “my body did it”. Furthermore, the fact that this person “felt like it” was and always is completely out of his control. The thoughts and desires that cultivated this feeling were not selected by this person; they were the product of neurological activity, which was the product of some other neurological activity which was the product of some external physical stimulation and so on and so forth, all within the C.C.P.

Compatibilist reasoning acknowledges the truth of these observations, and agrees that in the aforementioned sense, free will cannot exist. The Compatibilists are eager to reconcile this fact with the belief that people are still morally responsible for their actions, and in order to do so they propose a new definition for what constitutes free will: the ability to act as desired free of constraints – if somebody willfully brings about her conduct she is morally responsible. Under this classification somebody who “did it because she felt like it” was in fact exercising her freedom of will. This definition (which I consider to be a summary of the strongest Compatibilist positions) eschews metaphysics altogether and attempts to derive a more practical connotation, one that could be put to use in legislature or in a courtroom, or even just in day-to-day moral transactions. The problem with Compatibilism is that it fails to recognize that there are two distinct conceptions (with two distinct definitions) of Free Will at play here, and thus two distinct terms are necessary to discuss them. This is the mistake that people like Hume[6], Frankfurt[7], Dennett[8] and many others make.

''Technical free will does not and cannot exist - this becomes clear with rational inspection and introspection. Practical Free Will does and must exist - this is clear from experience. By separating these terms, we may preserve the profound commandment of compassion that concluded the investigation of the former while maintaining the grounds necessary for moral responsibility in the practical world, as demanded by the latter.''

What would be more to the point would be for you to explain why you think compatibilism fails. it might at least show whether or not you understood the concept you so fervently criticise.

There are several versions of compatibalism....but basically - compatibalism; the ability to act as desired free of constraints.

1. Our universe is adequately deterministic.

2. Freedoms exist in our universe (no sane person would deny this).

Conclusion: Freedom is compatible with determinism.

Your syllogism is based on assumptions that you have not defined or not explained.

You have not explained the nature of the freedoms that are assumed in P2.

What are these freedoms when considered in relation to determinism?

Determinism means that all events unfold according prior conditions, that the future is determined completely by preceding events - a combination of prior states of the universe and the laws of nature.

What is the nature of freedom within a determined system? That is what you need to explain.
 
Nor is not up to you to explain someone else's post. I'm sure the poster is capable of that.

What DBT means is that you don't need to explain another poster's post, because they are capable of explaining their own post.

That is what I meant, but it appears to be too complicated for some. If seems it needs explaining....perhaps their time would be better spent roasting Frogs Legs or something....anything would be more productive.
 
Nor is not up to you to explain someone else's post. I'm sure the poster is capable of that.

What DBT means is that you don't need to explain another poster's post, because they are capable of explaining their own post.

Nor is not up to you to explain someone else's post. I'm sure the poster is capable of that. :)

Still, it seems to me I would agree with you that for some posters around here there may be things like irony and tongue-in-cheek so subtle that they would need explained to them.

Yet, sometimes, even explanations can be so subtle they don't produce the expected result.

Someone said that explanations are the road to infinity.

Me, I think that would require some explaining.
EB
 
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