To Give You a Size of the Immense and Growing Size of Illegal Immigration

[Loren Pechtel]

You would have an excellent point if the Democrats would have just sat back and let Trump fail over the wall. But instead of that, they made a big performance how they would prevent the wall. Had the wall actually been completed and not worked (a very real possibility) we could say that the Democrats were smart and Trump was dumb. But now all we can really conclude is that the Democrats did not give a shit about illegal immigration and Trump did.

Some of us had a big problem with how he intended to do it. Things like bypassing pretty much all the regulations to build it. Look at what is happening with the Rio Grande--Texas keeps putting traps (hint: look up the law on booby traps--highly illegal for good reason) in the river and blocking a navigable waterway against both federal and international law.

There's also the issue that he would claim it worked whether it did or not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Are you the same person who just posted this:

“When it comes to politics, what matters is what they actually do. Not what they are telling us.”

This issue has reached a level of heat with the maga supporters that even talking about it is better than nothing right now. Especially during a time when the opposition is attempting to take out the only person (Trump) from the ballet who cares what they care about.

If the Democrats remove Trump from the ballet while doing nothing about what he stood for, I am confident a lot of them are going to start cleaning their guns. What comes after that I can not say but I would rather have everyone talking than the not talking about it. You can not even begin to solve a serious issue without communication.

A nation divided can not stand.

So the left should start loading their guns because of the Republican attempts to turn the US into Gilead?

The left knows you clean your gun after use, not before use.

 

[TSwizzle]

Just more "replacement theory" right along with Trump's "Poisoning the Blood" speech. Sad thing is that the people pushing it for political gain have to distort the picture so much to the point of flat out lying to make their case. But the voters they are manipulating are eating it up anyway.

Tens of thousands of people are coming into the USA illegally almost every day. What is being distorted?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Are you the same person who just posted this:

“When it comes to politics, what matters is what they actually do. Not what they are telling us.”

This issue has reached a level of heat with the maga supporters that even talking about it is better than nothing right now. Especially during a time when the opposition is attempting to take out the only person (Trump) from the ballet who cares what they care about.

If the Democrats remove Trump from the ballet while doing nothing about what he stood for, I am confident a lot of them are going to start cleaning their guns. What comes after that I can not say but I would rather have everyone talking than the not talking about it. You can not even begin to solve a serious issue without communication.

A nation divided can not stand.

So the left should start loading their guns because of the Republican attempts to turn the US into Gilead?

Im sure the right would not agree that getting one’s gun ready is a good response to the overturning of Roe v Wade.

The left knows you clean your gun after use, not before use.

Maybe the right use their guns a lot more than the left. So they are always in need of cleaning. ?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Trump's "big, beautiful wall" failed for a number of reasons. You seem to think that if it weren't for those peaky libs, we'd have a 30ft gold-plated wall from sea to sea and there wouldn't be a single immigrant that managed to enter the country illegally. Only a sucker would buy that.

And it presumes the migrants come unequipped. Yeah, they are poor but that doesn't mean that as a group they can't get things. We've already seen plenty of ladders to climb over it. Let's go up the scale a little bit--plasma cutter. Powered from a generator. The only way you can defeat one is to make the metal very thick. Nothing stocked in the local hardware but plenty you can order.

 

[Patooka]

So I've got three solid "won't works"

How about a fourth from the guy who made the wall his campaign;

I would think something could be constructed that cannot be cut through, climbed over, or dug under. Sensors for digging, perhaps a no-mans land to deter shenanigans on the other side. Point being, here and in any news I've sourced since Trump started running his mouth about the wall, I've not heard a good argument against a wall other than the "it's not 100%" one that we all know to be more of an excuse than a argument.

It would work in the sense that the amount of money required to build and maintain such a wall would tank the US economy so bad, no one would want to immigrate into such a shithole country.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When I was younger, the Republicans were (or at least presented themselves as) the "rational" party. The left were the ones "ruled by their emotions." Derided as "tree huggers" and such. Since Trump took over, the right has become ruled by feelings rather than facts. RVonse wants a useless wall that will make him feel like something is being done. He wants migrants treated cruelly because he feels it will make them stop coming. He wants Trump (or Trump-like) policies on the border because he feels it will help, and feels that the Biden administration is doing absolutely nothing to stop illegal immigration. Facts matter not in the face of feelings.

The change happened long ago, it's just it's taken until now for it to be so utterly obvious.

My father was active in politics in the 60s. Republican. By the 80s he was voting straight Democrat--because the parties changed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We do not like the idea of wasting many billions on a symbol. The right is all about symbols rather than about reality.

The wall is actually a physical barrier so that makes it more than just a symbol.

And both party's use symbols for visibility and good effect. What is a pink pussy hat if not a symbol?

It's a symbol. There's no way to build a wall that can't be defeated by far less effort than it took to build it. So long as the people seeking to cross it have access to resources it will be defeated. Walls simply slow people down.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So I've got three solid "won't works". I would think it would at least be a significant deterrence, freeing up security personnel for other duties. Israel's seems to work well enough, where it's a wall and not a fence sans vehicle obstacles. Lessons learned and all. And I'm sure no one is suggesting a human pass through a wall. My understanding is solid objects tend to be rather antisocial in these regards.

Walls only work when backed up by troops. And given the size of the border, lots of troops.

I would think something could be constructed that cannot be cut through, climbed over, or dug under. Sensors for digging, perhaps a no-mans land to deter shenanigans on the other side.

Thinking that doesn't make it so.

Plasma cutters will cut anything that's not too thick, but are depth limited. That makes metal pretty impractical which leaves concrete and it's quite possible to drill anchors into concrete.

Any real-world surface is either soft and can be cut away, or is hard and can be glued to. If you can glue to it you can set anchors and normal mountaineering techniques work. (And everything you need to do so is available at any good climbing shop.)

The only way you can actually make it work is to have the wall before the border so you can go stop people trying to get through. But that requires a lot of manpower.

Point being, here and in any news I've sourced since Trump started running his mouth about the wall, I've not heard a good argument against a wall other than the "it's not 100%" one that we all know to be more of an excuse than a argument.

The majority of illegals here didn't sneak in in the first place. And if you could somehow make a total success of the wall you would simply push the traffic into the sea. A bit more expensive but it wouldn't stop them.

Ref: Effectiveness of Israel's West Bank Barrier.
Warning: Contains Wikipedia as a reference. May be too intense for some readers.

A barrier backed by troops allowed to shoot infiltrators. And note that the big block of the wall is not about stopping infiltration, but stopping cross-border fire.

 

[TSwizzle]

U.S. immigration officials along the southern border are on track to process more than 300,000 migrants in December, an all-time monthly high that will likely include record numbers of families traveling with children, according to internal government data obtained by CBS News.

CBS

300,000 in December, an all time monthly high. But it’s all a lie, distorted?

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

Does the Republicans constant screaming that the borders are open actually attract migrants when they hear it?

Not sure about that, but I bet getting a free ticket to NYC, Chicago, or San Francisco from the governors of Florida and Texas attracts immigrants.

aa

 

[Loren Pechtel]

U.S. immigration officials along the southern border are on track to process more than 300,000 migrants in December, an all-time monthly high that will likely include record numbers of families traveling with children, according to internal government data obtained by CBS News.

CBS

300,000 in December, an all time monthly high. But it’s all a lie, distorted?

Note: "Process". I have had dealing with the immigration service--and they're atrociously behind. Process doesn't mean applications. It took a hair under two years to process my wife's application--and I do not think the timing was chance. Rather, had they taken a little bit longer they would have had to issue her a permanent green card rather than a conditional one. That gave them another bite at the apple two years later with the application to remove the conditional status.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

U.S. immigration officials along the southern border are on track to process more than 300,000 migrants in December, an all-time monthly high that will likely include record numbers of families traveling with children, according to internal government data obtained by CBS News.

CBS

300,000 in December, an all time monthly high. But it’s all a lie, distorted?

Immigration into the US along the southern border is quite high. Documented as such. But it is being sold as catastrophic in cult like fashion.

But your solution of look the other way and close the door is going to not be problematic?

 

[Ford]

U.S. immigration officials along the southern border are on track to process more than 300,000 migrants in December, an all-time monthly high that will likely include record numbers of families traveling with children, according to internal government data obtained by CBS News.

CBS

300,000 in December, an all time monthly high. But it’s all a lie, distorted?

Immigration into the US along the southern border is quite high. Documented as such. But it is being sold as catastrophic in cult like fashion.

And the numbers don't tell the whole story. As Politifact notes:

Immigration data can give us a sense of the scale of migration, but it can’t tell us how many people crossed the border and now live here.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis misleadingly said in September that 6 million or 7 million people have "come illegally under Biden."

There were 7.8 million encounters nationwide under Biden as of October 2023. But this metric doesn’t confirm that 7.8 million people entered the United States. At least 2.5 million encounters ended in expulsions under the public health policy, and hundreds of thousands have been expelled under immigration law.

"There is no authoritative source on how many unauthorized immigrants have joined the U.S. population since President Biden took office," said Julia Gelatt, associate director of the U.S. immigration policy program at the Migration Policy Institute, a nonpartisan think tank.

So yeah...the right is making the numbers sound like it's immigrationgeddon, but they're twisting the numbers to gin up outrage. Also:

In 2000, there were fewer Border Patrol agents, and that likely made it easier to cross the border evading apprehension, the American Immigration Council, an immigrant-rights advocacy group, said in a 2022 report. Immigration officials estimate that 2 million people entered the U.S. without detection that year. In fiscal year 2021, the latest available data, about 390,000 people evaded detection.

So, even though there were more encounters in 2021 than apprehensions in 2000, immigration officials estimate that more people evaded detection in 2000 than in 2021.

And while Trump's "big, beautiful wall paid for by Mexico" didn't materialize, the truth is that there has been more border fencing/walls/barriers/monitors installed over the last 25 years than even the mighty Trump managed. Back in the 90s, I used to drive along the Rio Grande to get home from downtown El Paso, and there was a fence, but it was about as robust as the fence around the playground at my daughter's school. Now? It looks like what you'd find around a prison, with razor wire and watchtowers (built long before Trump). During the Obama years, the number of Border Patrol agents more than doubled, and Trump was handed a border that was far more secure than it was when he started dating his current immigrant wife.

It is exactly as secure now as it was when he sulked out of the White House. Yet to hear the right wing tell it, there are hordes of rapey brown drug dealers streaming across the border in caravans coming to take our jobs/not work at all/lower property values in Florida.

 

[TSwizzle]

U.S. immigration officials along the southern border are on track to process more than 300,000 migrants in December, an all-time monthly high that will likely include record numbers of families traveling with children, according to internal government data obtained by CBS News.

CBS

300,000 in December, an all time monthly high. But it’s all a lie, distorted?

Immigration into the US along the southern border is quite high. Documented as such.

"Quite high" is an understatement.

But it is being sold as catastrophic in cult like fashion.

Yeah, what the fuck are the mayors in Chicago and New York whining about?

 

[RVonse]

It is exactly as secure now as it was when he sulked out of the White House. Yet to hear the right wing tell it, there are hordes of rapey brown drug dealers streaming across the border in caravans coming to take our jobs/not work at all/lower property values in Florida.

Yes the chimpanzees and apes certainly are hooting and hollering about this right now. But that still does not mean their response is not rational.

Consider how Rome fell:
Just like Rome wasn't built in a day, it also didn't fall in a day. Its demise can be attributed to many factors, especially internal corruption, division, and outside invasion. As Rome grew in size and population, the rulers of Rome became very corrupt.

 

[RVonse]

So I've got three solid "won't works". I would think it would at least be a significant deterrence, freeing up security personnel for other duties. Israel's seems to work well enough, where it's a wall and not a fence sans vehicle obstacles. Lessons learned and all. And I'm sure no one is suggesting a human pass through a wall. My understanding is solid objects tend to be rather antisocial in these regards.

Walls only work when backed up by troops. And given the size of the border, lots of troops.

But the US has a lot of troops......everywhere except our own borders.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Might be because people coming north of the border are trying to get to better lives and opportunities... not defeat us in a military conquest.

 

[Ford]

It is exactly as secure now as it was when he sulked out of the White House. Yet to hear the right wing tell it, there are hordes of rapey brown drug dealers streaming across the border in caravans coming to take our jobs/not work at all/lower property values in Florida.

Yes the chimpanzees and apes certainly are hooting and hollering about this right now. But that still does not mean their response is not rational.

Consider how Rome fell:
Just like Rome wasn't built in a day, it also didn't fall in a day. Its demise can be attributed to many factors, especially internal corruption, division, and outside invasion. As Rome grew in size and population, the rulers of Rome became very corrupt.

Um...that first part seems a little racist. But hey, maybe you can clarify who the "chimpanzees and apes" are that you're talking about.

As for Rome? Funny thing about that. Rome had some of their biggest successes when they "welcomed" new lands into the Republic/Empire. How did they do this? Citizenship. When Rome straddled the world (so to speak), do you know how you earned Roman citizenship? In short, by being within the borders of Rome. How did Rome fall? That's a very complicated question, but rest assured it is not because "they let too many brown people become citizens." If I remember correctly, the "outside invasion" you credit for the fall of Rome didn't come from Mexico. It came from (checks notes) white Europeans. Vandals and Visigoths. But that was just old Rome. The Roman Empire continued for another thousand years after the same guy who said "this Jewish guy from Palestine seems awesome" moved the capital of the Empire to (checks notes) the Middle East. Constantinople was diverse as fuck.

 

[James Brown]

Just more "replacement theory" right along with Trump's "Poisoning the Blood" speech. Sad thing is that the people pushing it for political gain have to distort the picture so much to the point of flat out lying to make their case. But the voters they are manipulating are eating it up anyway.

Tens of thousands of people are coming into the USA illegally almost every day. What is being distorted?

How many people are leaving the USA almost every day?

What's the real rate of illegal immigration?

Now, this extrapolation is a little dicey, but it really does seem as if net unauthorized immigration is close to zero thanks to repatriations, deportations, and voluntary departures. This, in turn, suggests that the level of illegal immigration isn't really tied much to national policy at all....

Long story short, American businesses want about 11 million unauthorized workers, and as long as that demand is there the population of unauthorized workers will hover around 11 million. The incoming flow of unauthorized immigration merely responds to changes in that population.

If we watch people walk into a Wal-Mart and ignore the people walking out, wouldn't we soon be justified calling the Fire Marshall to report Wal-Mart is in violation of local code? How long until the customers are crammed in shoulder to shoulder?