To Give You a Size of the Immense and Growing Size of Illegal Immigration

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

… Obama who promised hope and change but did not deliver.

if Obama had just realized that much of the American populace would prefer a dictator over a President perhaps he could delivered on that change.

Did you forget all about Operation Jade Helm 15???!!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

… Obama who promised hope and change but did not deliver.

if Obama had just realized that much of the American populace would prefer a dictator over a President perhaps he could delivered on that change.

Did you forget all about Operation Jade Helm 15???!!

It has gotten so insane, yes, at least I had.

 

[TomC]

… Obama who promised hope and change but did not deliver.

if Obama had just realized that much of the American populace would prefer a dictator over a President perhaps he could delivered on that change.

Did you forget all about Operation Jade Helm 15???!!

Is that the one where Obama finally got Osama bin Laden, 10 years after George W Bush started trying?
And failing?
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

… Obama who promised hope and change but did not deliver.

if Obama had just realized that much of the American populace would prefer a dictator over a President perhaps he could delivered on that change.

Did you forget all about Operation Jade Helm 15???!!

Is that the one where Obama finally got Osama bin Laden, 10 years after George W Bush started trying?
And failing?
Tom

No, it's the one where he used the federal army to enslave Texas, the last stronghold of freedumb.

 

[TomC]

No, it's the one where he used the federal army to enslave Texas, the last stronghold of freedumb.

Oh.
Don't remember.
But no wonder those damn Texans are so uppity.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

So, just hold your nose and vote blue.

This reads a whole lot like "Vote Democrat or you're an evil person"

I kinda think that myself.

I'm old. I've watched the decline of the Republican party from the Reagan years to the Trump administration. It went from one version of a vision of America, 40 years ago, to a bunch of lying grifters with no interest in the people of this country.

As much as I find to criticize the Democratic party over, I became a straight ticket Democrat voter in 2010. And ever since, the Teaparty Republicans have proven me right.

Seriously, they're voting for Trump because he's a Christian?
Tom

Problem is, this mindset is how you start a civil war.

I'm extremely concerned about the tendency of people partisans on both sides of the aisle to completely demonize the other side. There's always been some element of this involved, but the breadth and divisiveness has grown dramatically since somewhere in the middle of Obama's term. It existed before that though - there was already some of it in place back during Clinton's presidency, probably before then though I was too young to have a good grasp of it back then. But it's gotten so much worse.

I am concerned that we're hurtling toward a cliff that's going to result in the abolition of the 1st amendment. We've got two opposing parties, both of which want to force ideological conformity, and both of which view anyone on the other side as people with evil beliefs that shouldn't be allowed.

Actually this has been around as long as the country. We're still here as a nation because there have always been larger threats and that's likely to continue. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to come together more, solve our differences as adults, only that it isn't something new for us or for any country.

It's always been around, yes. But the schism has grown significantly and measurably.
 Political polarization in the United States

As Partisan Hostility Grows, Signs of Frustration With the Two-Party System

Increasingly, Republicans and Democrats view not just the opposing party but also the people in that party in a negative light. Growing shares in each party now describe those in the other party as more closed-minded, dishonest, immoral and unintelligent than other Americans. Nearly half of...

www.pewresearch.org

Why do you think a majority of republicans claim that there was election fraud, that Trump won and Biden didn't? I think I know why and I think it addresses the partisan issue.

Take a step back and think about it honestly here - if Trump had *won* do you think the majority of democrats would have just said "oh, well, that's the will of the people, that's fine" and smiled their way through the next four years?

I doubt it, given that the majority of democrats spent the entire first four years of Trump's term focused almost exclusively on trying to force him out of office, while simultaneously trying to convince everyone to change election rules completely.

Different tactics, same objective.

 

[Emily Lake]

View attachment 45305

Look at all those commie countries.

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP/USA/FRA/JPN/GBR/SWE/ESP/ITA/ZAF/IND

What criteria and sorting are you using for the image you posted?

I'm not using anything. It was a screen grab from the link I posted.

I can't figure out how to make it limit to the specific countries you selected. Sounds like it's a me problem though

I just told you I didn't select those on that list.

It gave me a list of way way more countries, and France and the US were nowhere near each other. I'm sure there's some selector somewhere, and it's a failure on my part to find it. I wasn't challenging what you posted - I just can't figure out how to limit the list the way you did

How many times do I have to say it? I didn't limit anything. The list was there when I got to the site. And it's still there. It's also in the link text.

I don't know why you're so worked up about it. Geez. I believe you, I'm not arguing!

 

[Emily Lake]

Why do you think a majority of republicans claim that there was election fraud, that Trump won and Biden didn't? I think I know why and I think it addresses the partisan issue.

Also the "OMG Civil War!" crap.
One side is the party of insurrectioists and violence and federal debt. The other side is trying to keep US together.
Yeah, guess who I'm voting for.

Squealing "they're both the same" is what's leading to civil war.
Tom

"My side good, the other side evil!" is totally how we achieve unity.

 

[TomC]

Take a step back and think about it honestly here - if Trump had *won* do you think the majority of democrats would have just said "oh, well, that's the will of the people, that's fine" and smiled their way through the next four years?

Trump has lost every popular election he's ever stood for.

Do you remember any violent attacks on Capitol Hill, or any such thing, from any Democrats?
I don't.

That's the way to Civil War. Bitching about Trump's lies and grifting is just like Teapartiers assaulting the EC and the Vice President.

Tom

 

[TomC]

Why do you think a majority of republicans claim that there was election fraud, that Trump won and Biden didn't? I think I know why and I think it addresses the partisan issue.

Also the "OMG Civil War!" crap.
One side is the party of insurrectioists and violence and federal debt. The other side is trying to keep US together.
Yeah, guess who I'm voting for.

Squealing "they're both the same" is what's leading to civil war.
Tom

"My side good, the other side evil!" is totally how we achieve unity.

Do you think that the Democratic Party is my side?
They damn sure aren't.
They are on the side of the USA. The Teaparty clearly is not.

That's the difference between the two sides. One is sorta on the side of the USA. One is opposed to basic Usonian values, like democracy and immigration and equal rights for all.
Tom

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Take a step back and think about it honestly here - if Trump had *won* do you think the majority of democrats would have just said "oh, well, that's the will of the people, that's fine" and smiled their way through the next four years?

How many democrats alleged election fraud in 2016? What evidence is there of election fraud in 2020? That's the point. How is it that the majority of republicans are claiming election fraud? What is causing this? Any ideas?

 

[Patooka]

How many democrats alleged election fraud in 2016?

I can answer that. Less than the amount of Republicans who insisted there was election fraud even in 2016. Trying to both sides this is patently dishonest.

Lying about election fraud is solely a right wing phenomenon.

 

[ZiprHead]

View attachment 45305

Look at all those commie countries.

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP/USA/FRA/JPN/GBR/SWE/ESP/ITA/ZAF/IND

What criteria and sorting are you using for the image you posted?

I'm not using anything. It was a screen grab from the link I posted.

I can't figure out how to make it limit to the specific countries you selected. Sounds like it's a me problem though

I just told you I didn't select those on that list.

It gave me a list of way way more countries, and France and the US were nowhere near each other. I'm sure there's some selector somewhere, and it's a failure on my part to find it. I wasn't challenging what you posted - I just can't figure out how to limit the list the way you did

How many times do I have to say it? I didn't limit anything. The list was there when I got to the site. And it's still there. It's also in the link text.

I don't know why you're so worked up about it. Geez. I believe you, I'm not arguing!

I believe you're not arguing, yet you continue to tell falsehoods about me.

 

[LoAmmo]

Trying to “both-sides” this all the way to the election is how you end up ending the American experiment.

Of COURSE one side is not 100% pure and good, in every waking thought and deed, while the other is unremitting evil across the board, each day, every day.

But you’d have to be willfully stupid not to acknowledge that a deeply asymmetrical gap exists between the Left and Right in 2024, as regards commitment to the basic small-d democratic principles, values, and norms that “got us here,” that we clung to for the first 240-ish years of our existence.
As regards commitment to previous staples like “the rule of law”, “the integrity of the judiciary,” our founding as a “melting pot of immigrants,” the sanctity of “the electoral process,”maintaining a “wall of separation between church and state”— those concepts, among others, are very literally up for grabs in 2024.

Failure to firstly even see the one-sidedness and secondly to openly call it out and oppose it is the height of head-in-the-sand intellectual laziness—and if enough people fall prey to it (even out of a well-intentioned and principled desire to “not categorically demonize one’s philosophical opponents” or whatever), democracy could very plausibly end in America.

One side here is very much not like the other. We have to stop pretending the difference is minor, superficial, and largely inconsequential.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So, just hold your nose and vote blue.

This reads a whole lot like "Vote Democrat or you're an evil person"

I kinda think that myself.

I'm old. I've watched the decline of the Republican party from the Reagan years to the Trump administration. It went from one version of a vision of America, 40 years ago, to a bunch of lying grifters with no interest in the people of this country.

As much as I find to criticize the Democratic party over, I became a straight ticket Democrat voter in 2010. And ever since, the Teaparty Republicans have proven me right.

Seriously, they're voting for Trump because he's a Christian?
Tom

Problem is, this mindset is how you start a civil war.

I'm extremely concerned about the tendency of people partisans on both sides of the aisle to completely demonize the other side. There's always been some element of this involved, but the breadth and divisiveness has grown dramatically since somewhere in the middle of Obama's term. It existed before that though - there was already some of it in place back during Clinton's presidency, probably before then though I was too young to have a good grasp of it back then. But it's gotten so much worse.

I am concerned that we're hurtling toward a cliff that's going to result in the abolition of the 1st amendment. We've got two opposing parties, both of which want to force ideological conformity, and both of which view anyone on the other side as people with evil beliefs that shouldn't be allowed.

Actually this has been around as long as the country. We're still here as a nation because there have always been larger threats and that's likely to continue. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to come together more, solve our differences as adults, only that it isn't something new for us or for any country.

It's always been around, yes. But the schism has grown significantly and measurably.
 Political polarization in the United States

As Partisan Hostility Grows, Signs of Frustration With the Two-Party System

Increasingly, Republicans and Democrats view not just the opposing party but also the people in that party in a negative light. Growing shares in each party now describe those in the other party as more closed-minded, dishonest, immoral and unintelligent than other Americans. Nearly half of...

www.pewresearch.org

Why do you think a majority of republicans claim that there was election fraud, that Trump won and Biden didn't? I think I know why and I think it addresses the partisan issue.

Take a step back and think about it honestly here - if Trump had *won* do you think the majority of democrats would have just said "oh, well, that's the will of the people, that's fine" and smiled their way through the next four years?

I doubt it, given that the majority of democrats spent the entire first four years of Trump's term focused almost exclusively on trying to force him out of office, while simultaneously trying to convince everyone to change election rules completely.

Different tactics, same objective.

So much false equivalance (or Moore Coulter as Emily Lake likes to say). No words. Should have sent a poet.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How many democrats alleged election fraud in 2016?

I can answer that. Less than the amount of Republicans who insisted there was election fraud even in 2016. Trying to both sides this is patently dishonest.

Lying about election fraud is solely a right wing phenomenon.

Yeah, Trump alleged fraud in 2016 and 2020 though almost no real cases taken to court by him on it in either. Dems were hoping for some Electoral College miracle, a few protested. There were no deaths, no Congressional evacuation.

Couldn't get past his inauguration without the petty lies. And then he fires Comey who didn't drop an investigation. And it just cascaded from there.

 

[RVonse]

Trying to “both-sides” this all the way to the election is how you end up ending the American experiment.

Of COURSE one side is not 100% pure and good, in every waking thought and deed, while the other is unremitting evil across the board, each day, every day.

But you’d have to be willfully stupid not to acknowledge that a deeply asymmetrical gap exists between the Left and Right in 2024, as regards commitment to the basic small-d democratic principles, values, and norms that “got us here,” that we clung to for the first 240-ish years of our existence.
As regards commitment to previous staples like “the rule of law”, “the integrity of the judiciary,” our founding as a “melting pot of immigrants,” the sanctity of “the electoral process,”maintaining a “wall of separation between church and state”— those concepts, among others, are very literally up for grabs in 2024.

Failure to firstly even see the one-sidedness and secondly to openly call it out and oppose it is the height of head-in-the-sand intellectual laziness—and if enough people fall prey to it (even out of a well-intentioned and principled desire to “not categorically demonize one’s philosophical opponents” or whatever), democracy could very plausibly end in America.

One side here is very much not like the other. We have to stop pretending the difference is minor, superficial, and largely inconsequential.

So you are trying to tell us with a straight face our level headed Democratic party is just the same as it was back in the Jimmy Carter days. That Jimmy C. ran on a platform calling for open southern borders, men competing on women's teams, de-funding of the police, globalism is great, reverse racism is great, China is great, war hawking is great, shoplifting is ok, censoring is ok, weaponizing the law is ok ......you mean that was the same Democratic party you remember?

Somehow I just don't remember the same Democrat party you do.

 

[TomC]

So you are trying to tell us with a straight face our level headed Democratic party is just the same as it was back in the Jimmy Carter days.

Nobody is saying that.

But I can understand why you'd prefer to make up bullshit like that rather than talk about the current situation, 50 years on.
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

Trying to “both-sides” this all the way to the election is how you end up ending the American experiment.

Of COURSE one side is not 100% pure and good, in every waking thought and deed, while the other is unremitting evil across the board, each day, every day.

But you’d have to be willfully stupid not to acknowledge that a deeply asymmetrical gap exists between the Left and Right in 2024, as regards commitment to the basic small-d democratic principles, values, and norms that “got us here,” that we clung to for the first 240-ish years of our existence.
As regards commitment to previous staples like “the rule of law”, “the integrity of the judiciary,” our founding as a “melting pot of immigrants,” the sanctity of “the electoral process,”maintaining a “wall of separation between church and state”— those concepts, among others, are very literally up for grabs in 2024.

Failure to firstly even see the one-sidedness and secondly to openly call it out and oppose it is the height of head-in-the-sand intellectual laziness—and if enough people fall prey to it (even out of a well-intentioned and principled desire to “not categorically demonize one’s philosophical opponents” or whatever), democracy could very plausibly end in America.

One side here is very much not like the other. We have to stop pretending the difference is minor, superficial, and largely inconsequential.

So you are trying to tell us with a straight face our level headed Democratic party is just the same as it was back in the Jimmy Carter days. That Jimmy C. ran on a platform calling for open southern borders, men competing on women's teams, de-funding of the police, globalism is great, reverse racism is great, China is great, shoplifting is ok, censoring is ok, weaponizing the law is ok ......you mean that was the same Democratic party you remember?

Somehow I just don't remember the same Democrat party you do.

I looked up the Democratic Party platform (https://democrats.org/where-we-stand/party-platform/) and it didn’t seem to comport with your characterization. Feel free to quote those sections I may have missed.

Looking up the Republican Party platform as a bit eye opening though.

 

[RVonse]

Looking up the Republican Party platform as a bit eye opening though.

Emily is right that both parties have changed massively. The only difference being how much more obvious with the Republicans since half of them have almost defected knowing something has gone horribly wrong.. The Republicans are at least knowing they have problems and making efforts to improve themselves.

That is wholly a different situation going with the Democrats who don't even realize how fucked up they are (see LoAmmo's post above). You have to at least know you have a problem or you never can improve yourself.